NigeyUK: meh Ivanovic: huh? NigeyUK: sundays suck Ivanovic: why? NigeyUK: nothing to do NigeyUK: everywhere is closed etc etc NigeyUK: and its a bank holiday so same thing tomorrow! NigeyUK: oo 1 person has voted no in the poll :o NigeyUK: heretic! NigeyUK: ello christian_lappy christian_lappy: morning NigeyUK NigeyUK: that idiot from 5by5 got back to me yesterday lol christian_lappy: 5by5 ? NigeyUK: yeah they did a video interview with gabe and jason, and failed to ask about the linux client, but managed to mention everything else, so i wrote and complained NigeyUK: hey mod! Ivanovic: what was his reply? NigeyUK: basically said it was down to his poor planning and in future they will viewer questions NigeyUK: accept* christian_lappy: idiot NigeyUK: yeah big idiot cause it was the perfect chance to put gabe on the spot and say something christian_lappy: absolutely NigeyUK: let me find the full reply.. NigeyUK: This is why I need to announce (and actually plan) the topics a bit more in advance - I just didn't think about it, but it would have been a question to ask. In the future, I'll be working to announce topics ahead of time, and take listener questions. NigeyUK: moron christian_lappy: uahhhhh christian_lappy: every guy in the world has heard about the steam linux rumors NigeyUK: exactly! christian_lappy: and he has an intetview with the valve boss and does not ask about that NigeyUK: he mentioned everything else you could imagine about x-platform support, but forgot linux... christian_lappy: or he wasnt allowed to ask christian_lappy: and istn allowed to tell NigeyUK: well i did ask in my email if he was not allowed, but i guess if thats the case he wouldnt admit it christian_lappy: yup NigeyUK: but the subject was totally NigeyUK: > ignored, was this on purpose? did valve ask you not to mention it? NigeyUK: i was very blunt lol surprised he got back to me actually lol christian_lappy: i really hope something happens in Jube bluekoala: I have a question regarding electricity jvizzle: bluekoala i have you don't like in florida bluekoala: Ah? bluekoala: You have I don't like in florida? bluekoala: You should share your drugs, they seem very effective mastertheknife: heh jvizzle: hahha... no sleep:( im sad mastertheknife: bluekoala: what was your question about electricity? bluekoala: Ok bluekoala: I want to evalute building a gauss cannon bluekoala: But I want to know bluekoala: How fast can a capacitor discharge? bluekoala: Is it instant or gradual? mastertheknife: instant mastertheknife: its why its used in cameras for flash for example bluekoala: And if I put 2 in parallel, does the voltage double or just the amperange? mastertheknife: Just the capacity bluekoala: Right bluekoala: I hear that 1 farad = 500 watts mastertheknife: (if you connect them from output leg to input leg of the other) bluekoala: But let's say I get 500v @ 1amp bluekoala: And I have 2 in parallel on the same circuit bluekoala: So I'll have effectively 1000v@2amps? mastertheknife: In parallel it will be just capacity increase bluekoala: Right bluekoala: But when it discharges mastertheknife: But if you connect in series, yes, voltage should increase mastertheknife: I just found this mastertheknife: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_and_parallel_circuits#Capacitors bluekoala: I would not try caps in series mastertheknife: check out Capacitors for both Parallel and Series sections bluekoala: Oh hmmmmmmm bluekoala: Thanks mastertheknife! mastertheknife: np simple google lol bluekoala: Yeah I didn't know how to approach google on the subject bluekoala: I had already made a schematic in my mind bluekoala: On the coilgun but now I see flaws in the design bluekoala: Like when you pull the trigger, you get electrocuted bluekoala: It could be called the "Feel the pain of your target" feature giselher: lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaT7thTxyq8&feature=player_embedded adrian_broher: damn, that's fast. RambJoe: im retarded RambJoe: i was booting from the live cd on arch linux :$ somename: does somebody know what the standard font in xchat is? RambJoe: freemono i think it was somename: cant find freemono somename: but i found monospace The_Muh: something wrong with this? http://pastebin.com/1Cka3xJC The_Muh: i cant send mails somename: 13:37: L337 |20(|<5 NigeyUK|: meep meep giselher: hy NigeyUK|: hey giselher meGenius: ^road runner NigeyUK|: yush! RR kicks ass NigeyUK|: time to wake the neighbours up with some Lab 4 i think meGenius: you like it?? NigeyUK|: hell yeah! meGenius: i would be thankful if he is eaten just once! meGenius: :D meGenius: he always wins NigeyUK|: lol dont wish that on the poor thing :( meGenius: :D meGenius: you are so romantic, NigeyUK :P NigeyUK: :P mastertheknife: hey NigeyUK: oo 64 votes :o NigeyUK: hey mastertheknife !!!! meGenius: NigeyUK: what about tweetie?? NigeyUK: tweetie is a terrorist in discuise meGenius: :D mastertheknife: hey Nigey mastertheknife: how you doing? NigeyUK: im good dude, just waking up :| NigeyUK: u? meGenius: isn't the time 13PM in UK, NigeyUK?? mastertheknife: not that good NigeyUK: 2pm yup mastertheknife: I have so much work on cleaning up and renewing my room lol meGenius: so, you just woke up?? NigeyUK: oh god, i did all the tidying last night before bed so i can do bugger all until i have to go out about 5pm :D NigeyUK: Megagun, bout 1 i got up .. lol NigeyUK: oops NigeyUK: meGenius* mastertheknife: You know it when there is so much work to do, you just become frusturated from looking at the list and in the end, do nothing mastertheknife: i'm only delaying things because looking at the list scares me NigeyUK: yup, i get that quite often :( mastertheknife: and then i never complete them NigeyUK: the joys of adulthood eh :( mastertheknife: I think i should try a new approach, instead of looking at all, i'll try finishing the "list" slowly NigeyUK: see you the end of next year then? :P mastertheknife: hehe not that slow NigeyUK: lol mastertheknife: i'm just a very lazy person it seems mastertheknife: there are days i wake up and feel all energized and like, what am i gonna do today etc mastertheknife: and there are days i wake up tired and feel tired all day NigeyUK: i get like that though, loads to do but no ummf to make me do it mastertheknife: NigeyUK: I thought its not like that with a gf mastertheknife: gf motivates and actually forces you to do some things NigeyUK: haha oh you've no idea! lol NigeyUK: that wears off after a while NigeyUK: cant let her win every time mastertheknife: oh NigeyUK: i want to be my cat NigeyUK: i think he sleeps 22 hours a day mastertheknife: heh mastertheknife: many cats are like that mastertheknife: I have a dog mastertheknife: and i never see it sleeping mastertheknife: him* mastertheknife: actually a she, my bad mastertheknife: I never see her sleep NigeyUK: dogs are useful, cats are just err.. well i dunno, not useful..my hamster is more useful than the cat! mastertheknife: only taking naps now and then on the sofa meGenius: somebody is talking about the cats.... meGenius: cats are the best:P mastertheknife: cats are very snobby NigeyUK: put a cat dog and hamster in the same room for an hour and see who eats who ! mastertheknife: I had a puppy cat 5 years ago mastertheknife: she was really cute NigeyUK: awww mastertheknife: we only had her for few months before she was ran over by a car NigeyUK: ah dude thats awful :( mastertheknife: she was actually sleeping under my mom's car mastertheknife: some day mastertheknife: no idea why she did it mastertheknife: so anyways, when my mom turned on the car and went to work she heard her scream, then she was all bleeding and died NigeyUK: weird! NigeyUK: awwww :( mastertheknife: i cried so much that day mastertheknife: ever since, i always watch to make sure our dog isn't under the car NigeyUK: cats do often go under cars, for some very odd reason :| mastertheknife: the heat from the warm engine i guess mastertheknife: and to avoid wind NigeyUK: could be yup NigeyUK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I2BVnGnI1Q&feature=related NigeyUK: haha awsome music giselher: wtf, strange music :) NigeyUK: check this 1 NigeyUK: Yoji kicking ass NigeyUK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HPJe8rpzmM NigeyUK: http://www.puppygames.net/revenge-of-the-titans/ NigeyUK: looks funky meGenius: great game NigeyUK: Hello, NigeyUK: I'm new to Steam and just downloaded it to my Macintosh on May 12th. My question is what is with all the updates and are they normal? Every time I start Steam I get an update and I just want to know if it was my application or if this is something that is common. NigeyUK: only a retarded mac fanboi would ask that adrian_broher: oh noes! updates! make them go away! MPX: Ahhh link? NigeyUK: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1274582 NigeyUK: lol adrian_broher Sleepy_Coder: NigeyUK: They're still getting a feel on how to support the Mac, and there are still quite a few feature requests/bugs they are dealing with. :> It's not as common on the PC, and I wouldn't expect it to stay that way on the Mac for more than a month. I usually only get an update on Win 7 every week or so, not every day Sleepy_Coder: oh you're not asking :S Sleepy_Coder: I can't read :D NigeyUK: lol np Ivanovic: Sleepy_Coder: this does not distinguish you in any way from about 95% of all internet users! Ivanovic: ^^ Sleepy_Coder: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/java reading off of this :p Sleepy_Coder: NOT LISTENING TO YOU Sleepy_Coder: buwhahaha Sleepy_Coder: managed to clock his i5 750 to 4 x 4.6Ghz :-) Sleepy_Coder: Don't laugh at my impracticality. Sleepy_Coder: I"M WASTING POWER AND I LIKE IT mastertheknife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0A77rohcyg&feature=related ryan-mini__: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCGmjmazE5c mastertheknife: ryan-mini__: LOL christian_lappy: steam forums down ? The_Muh: they preparing the release *hope* christian_lappy: anything special announced for today ? RambJoe: what have i missed christian_lappy: nothin RambJoe: oh christian_lappy: do steam froums work for you ? christian_lappy: the whole steam side does not work for me RambJoe: works here christian_lappy: really ? RambJoe: yes RambJoe: well forums do christian_lappy: i get an timeout from the site RambJoe: --- store.steampowered.com ping statistics --- RambJoe: 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms RambJoe: wut christian_lappy: 4 pings, lost 2 giselher: http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux giselher: ^ is also down RambJoe: yeah its hosted on the same server giselher: :D RambJoe: i did keep losing connection of css beta too :s christian_lappy: why does it work for RambJoe ? RambJoe: but tahts probably nothing to do with it RambJoe: only the forums work christian_lappy: for me,no giselher: is the site hosted on a linux server? RambJoe: http://188.8.131.52/ RambJoe: what is that christian_lappy: nothing works here RambJoe: thats the default apache page isn't it lopl christian_lappy: don't think so giselher: forum works here too christian_lappy: http://store.steampowered.com/forums/ christian_lappy: does not work here RambJoe: no RambJoe: its RambJoe: forums.steampowered.com/forums christian_lappy: ok, thats a different server RambJoe: im pretty sure that that is the apache page once you've set it up though lol RambJoe: http://184.108.40.206/ that one Midler: RambJoe: y Midler: it is christian_lappy: ah, ok alexandernst: what does that meaaaaaaannnnnn ??? alexandernst: end of world?? giselher: beginning of a new age of linux gaming RambJoe: no it means valve didn't delete their test page on their linux servers alexandernst: I can't support that any more!!! I want steam!! NOOOOOWW !! Ivanovic: alexandernst: you could try to get the analog version of steam Midler: they might have virtual directories Ivanovic: put a pot with water on the heart, turn it on and wait Midler: and trying to connect to ip dosnt get u anywhere christian_lappy: hehe ..going over the ip alexandernst: Ivanovic: nah, I'm fine ;) Just making noise here RambJoe: extensions.checkCompatibility.3.7a5 is that right? Nevtus: what are you talking about. ths steam linux page still 403s and I can access the forums just fine Ivanovic: would provide you with some steam... Ivanovic: ;) RambJoe: you know when you ping a site it says the IP RambJoe: how do you find out the port? christian_lappy: RambJoe: port of what ? Nevtus: there can be lots of ports open RambJoe: websites RambJoe: yeah but like what port a dns points too christian_lappy: RambJoe: dns isnt for ports RambJoe: oh christian_lappy: RambJoe: wbesite use 80 christian_lappy: RambJoe: or 443 RambJoe: what so all sites have to be on a different IP RambJoe: for a dns to work christian_lappy: nope christian_lappy: many different site can be on the same ip RambJoe: how though christian_lappy: apaiche name based virtual hosts is for that RambJoe: if dns servers cant point to a different port Nevtus: look up vhosts RambJoe: i thought you assign different ports though :S Nevtus: dns just points to the domain christian_lappy: RambJoe: no..the webserver checks your http get request to see what domain you are browsing RambJoe: i thought dns was the domain RambJoe: oh adrian_broher: the dns protocol is provided via 53 udp christian_lappy: RambJoe: then it leads you to the correct webroot RambJoe: NameVirtualHost *:5515 RambJoe: so it would be like valvesoftware.com for that or something adrian_broher: uhm RambJoe: oh ServerName adrian_broher: if you send an http 1.1 request there is a header for the host that you want to access. IIRC the key name is Host (rfc 2616) RambJoe: fuck i broke firefox 3.7 RambJoe: you cant install addons on that POS without it breaking -.- mastertheknife: steam site really down it seems mastertheknife: forums works though RambJoe: so is valvesoftware RambJoe: / really slow RambJoe: favicon loaded RambJoe: or cached RambJoe: omfg how do i change what .ini files open in Modplan: Gish has gone open source if it wasn't already posted Modplan: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Gish-goes-open-source Modplan: (Gish was in humble indie bundle) RambJoe: does that mean its free then giselher: yeah, that was absolutely the best game of the humble indie bundle Modplan: Rambjoe: The code is, art assets aren't RambJoe: oh Modplan: though lugaru is in the playdeb repositories RambJoe: does anyone here use firefox 3.7 ryan22: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Processor_families_in_TOP500_supercomputers.svg/1000px-Processor_families_in_TOP500_supercomputers.svg.png ryan22: ^ i like that graph kurros: RambJoe, i have it but havent run it much lately because the nightlies a broken a bit RambJoe: oh RambJoe: does it break everytime you install an addon? kurros: yeah, the add-on manager, download manager are all kinda broken atm. at least in the ubuntu nightlies RambJoe: :( kurros: i know the add-on manager is a work in progress but the download manager doesnt even render any items RambJoe: when i install an addon RambJoe: i get an XML error RambJoe: and i have to delete my firefox profile to fix RambJoe: think the sites coming back btw RambJoe: i can see the page source of store.steampowered.ciom giselher: steampowered is up again :D RambJoe: :D RambJoe: slow for me RambJoe: i still cant she shit on screen RambJoe: and our linux files are still 403d :( Nevtus: that isn't a bad thing RambJoe giselher: no this time they are missing ? giselher: oh sorry giselher: 403 :( Nevtus: I'd rather 403 than 404 Sleepy_Coder: I'd rather 400 than 404 Sleepy_Coder: >8D Forsaken: anyone know how to use the BROADCAST_RGB for the intel gfx driver ? Rednaxela: Sleepy_Coder: What about 500? :P mydak: hello Sleepy_Coder: Rednaxela: nou Rednaxela: nou? giselher: NigeyUK: over 100 votes already :) NigeyUK: yep, im quite surprised, steamonlinux is a busy little site :o giselher: but 2 Votes for NO :( NigeyUK: yeah, thats 2 people off my xmas card list! giselher: The most annoying thing about steam on linux is that I have to install ArchLinux on my gaming pc Nevtus: NigeyUK: are you getting many page views on that site? NigeyUK: yeah, ill get you some stats when i finish this article NigeyUK: http://www.steamonlinux.com/?p=80 NigeyUK: let the flame war begin *hides* NigeyUK: Nevtus, NigeyUK: Month Daily Avg Monthly Totals NigeyUK: Hits Files Pages Visits Sites KBytes Visits Pages Files Hits NigeyUK: May 2010 1128 600 161 83 1151 114654 1589 3077 11404 21440 NigeyUK: so .. 3077 page view up until midnight this morning, not bad for a site thats had bugger all content, and only been up 10 days Nevtus: NigeyUK: your site needs a favicon. It's weird to see a site without one these days NigeyUK: oh dam, i forgot about that Nevtus: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15197855&postcount=994 Nevtus: forums are lame Nevtus: I do use forums but irc is better NigeyUK: someone asked about forums for the website, i dont see the need for them tbh adrian_broher: write him that a mailing list is suffient adrian_broher: that schould scare him away adrian_broher: -c NigeyUK: haha so true, fear majordomo! RambJoe: why would we need a forum, we don't even have the client files to post on it lol :( Nevtus: NigeyUK: you should have a firstname.lastname@example.org NigeyUK: actually we do .. RambJoe: i mean to update NigeyUK: but i cant put them for download, valve would kick my ass NigeyUK: ahh NigeyUK: Nevtus, ive got enquiries? you think tips aswell ? Nevtus: oh, contact page. never noticed that NigeyUK: :p RambJoe: why is the valve site still down/slow RambJoe: ah its up just slow Modplan: maybe high demand from their half-life 2 release NigeyUK: been slow all day for some reason :( Modplan: or maybe they're prepping for linux releasSTEAMCONFIRMED!!!!111111 RambJoe: there is still no http://cdn.store.steampowered.com/public/images/v5/platforms/platform_linux.png RambJoe: :( NigeyUK: haha i was looking at that couple of weeks back NigeyUK: tried allsorts of names for the image but nowt :( RambJoe: lol same i keep checking it RambJoe: oh and the steam play png RambJoe: its mac and windows in the same image :( scheka: http://scheka.org/files/platform_steamplay.png scheka: :D NigeyUK: lol nice 1 scheka RambJoe: http://cdn.store.steampowered.com/public/images/v5/platforms/platform_steamplay.png i dont like the look of it RambJoe: would make more sense to have steam play as its own image then have the windows, mac (and linux) ones next to it NigeyUK: Nevtus, i made and uploaded a favicon but it doesnt show up :| Nevtus: RambJoe: tried messing around with the v5 part? Nevtus: I did but nothing obvious worked RambJoe: um RambJoe: whats the v5 url again RambJoe: i keep losing my firefox profile and history lol Nevtus: in the url you posted there is a "v5" part. Could stand for version 5 so maybe the linux one would be in "v6" or version six RambJoe: yeah it is version 5 but it doesn't show up on mine RambJoe: oh i see RambJoe: in the img url RambJoe: yeah since the new steam UI came out its been store vesrion 5 RambJoe: NigeyUK, i cant see code for favicon NigeyUK: i need code? :| NigeyUK: thought you just upload it to the webroot and it loads automatically adrian_broher: kurros: yeah, /favicon.ico, but you can specify it in an html , too s_20: NigeyUK: the W3C doesn't want to just it there s_20: +you s_20: +put s_20: what the hell is wrong with me. NigeyUK: lol NigeyUK: ill try adding it now NigeyUK: NigeyUK: NigeyUK: should work .. but doesnt RambJoe: maybe its the / RambJoe: before favicon.ico NigeyUK: ill try NigeyUK: nope, and it doesnt show an an error in the logs anymore that it cant find it, how annoying RambJoe: hmm RambJoe: try RambJoe: RambJoe: or try SHORTCUT ICON in capitals NigeyUK: oki, cheers scheka: i think you only need a "favicon.ico" in the main directory. works for me NigeyUK: that's what i thought NigeyUK: unless it's cause the code is in the header.php s_20: i can see the favicon in chrome NigeyUK: weird, must be FF having an off day scheka: you mean the favicon on http://www.steamonlinux.com/ ? NigeyUK: yeah NigeyUK: works for me now, had to restart ff scheka: can see it in FF Sonic1: Valve still pumping out new steam clients for you are they Sonic1: ? giselher: NigeyUK: Why has every one such silly avatars ? :D NigeyUK: lol theyre kinda built into the cms giselher: lol :) adrian_broher: ah gravatar ... giselher: Gravatar is f* awesome :) adrian_broher: only with identicon icons RambJoe: bash: ./configure: /bin/sh^M: bad interpreter: No such file or directory RambJoe: whats that :S RambJoe: oh i downloaded the windows one *facepalm* NigeyUK: duh lol Sleepy_Coder: lol RambJoe: lol it didn't say it was windows and it was .tar.bz2 RambJoe: ffs i still get configure: error: PNG library doesn't have APNG support RambJoe: :( RambJoe: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/05/29/if-google-told-you-to-jump-off-a-cliff-would-you/ lol wut NigeyUK: I would not jump. But if Apple told me... thats a different story. My soul belongs to Apple. All hail Steve B Jobs! NigeyUK: Posted By Juan NigeyUK: no comment! kurros: yeah i'd totally do it if steve told me to RambJoe: lol wut RambJoe: not surprising RambJoe: seeing as they'd also buy an ipad/iphone kurros: if steve told me to RambJoe: http://fortunebrainstormtech.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/route4-500x489.png RambJoe: notice there actaullly is a side walk there RambJoe: so she musy have just started walking off it like the line does LOl NigeyUK: lol NigeyUK: brb Sleepy_Coder: That's not a sidewalk :p Sleepy_Coder: It's the dirty side of the road Sleepy_Coder: The thing that makes this retarded: Anyone on the internet could give advice on where she should walk to get to whichever destination. Sleepy_Coder: Afaik, Google hasn't been official sanctioned by anyone to give you the safe/quick route. Sleepy_Coder: officially* Sleepy_Coder: Making it easy to defend. RambJoe: oh lol Tazzypillar: Anyone alive in here? Tazzypillar: I could use some help Rednaxela: Just ask the question Tazzypillar, people will answer if they know the answer :) Tazzypillar: Mkay, I want to know what's considered to be the best GBA emulator out there for linux :U Tazzypillar: Alternatively, why Visualboyadvance works so terribly on linux Rednaxela: Well, I must say I don't know what you mean. I've had no issues with VBA before ryan22: vbam is damn good ryan22: the orginal visualboyadvance hasn't been updated in agaes Tazzypillar: well the sound is stuttering really badly for me Tazzypillar: trying to play Megaman Zero Tazzypillar: Also I cant seem to configure it to use my gamepad Tazzypillar: which i'd like as megaman on a keyboard is sorta..no ryan22: http://sourceforge.net/projects/vbam/ Tazzypillar: o: thanks ryan Tazzypillar: i'll try this ryan22: you can use qjoypad to map your gamepad if vbam doesnt support it ryan22: http://qjoypad.sourceforge.net/ Tazzypillar: again; many thanks :> ryan22: no prob Tazzypillar: ooh wait, vbaM is visualboy advance M? Tazzypillar: I /think/ I just installed that Tazzypillar: but i dont know how to launch it ryan22: you need to compile it likely Tazzypillar: i ran a deb of it Tazzypillar: which is why ryan22: ah i rember i add to make a launcher ryan22: the command is vabm i think ryan22: *had ryan22: *vbam Tazzypillar: yes, I do get configuration options if i run vbam Tazzypillar: any hope of getting a frontend for it somewhere? ryan22: it has one ryan22: one sec ryan22: Tazzypillar: its "gvbam" Tazzypillar: O: Tazzypillar: perfect, thanks~ ryan22: another awesome emulator is mednafen ryan22: frontend: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mednafenfe/ ryan22: "An open source Game Boy, Lynx, NES, PC Engine, SuperGrafx, Neo Geo Pocket, PC-FX, and WonderSwan emulator " :P Tazzypillar: O: Rednaxela: with VBA, Mednafen, and zsnes, you're basically covered for most things Tazzypillar: PCSX also hated me, but I think QJoyPad will solve that problem ryan22: yes. and if you have audio trobules, just turf pulseaudio and itll fix everything Tazzypillar: turf? Rednaxela: i.e. ditch Rednaxela: i.e. do away with Tazzypillar: ah Tazzypillar: ;W; Can't, tragically Tazzypillar: I use pulseaudio for projectM Rednaxela: Heh Rednaxela: IMO, sound servers are a waste of time Tazzypillar: They are Tazzypillar: but they are a waste of time that is gorgeous Rednaxela: Because almost everything uses native alsa these days, and most systems have hardware mixing, and even on systems that don't it's *trivial* to set up ALSA software mixing Rednaxela: So... ryan22: im going to be looking into OSS4. it has per-application volume control and works existing code ryan22: Tazzypillar: ProjectM works fine with Jack ryan22: so go ahead and ditch pulse :P Rednaxela: Jack is the one audio server I've seen that looks credibly useful, due to it's low latency feature fancies ryan22: it can be a bitch to set up though Tazzypillar: How do i made jack Tazzypillar: I don't even have jack /installed/ ryan22: what distro? Tazzypillar: i'm sorry if I sound super nooby about all this(i am super nooby about all this) Tazzypillar: Linux Mint Tazzypillar: if you haven't heard of it, it's an ubuntu derivative ryan22: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=806730 ryan22: theres how to install jack Tazzypillar: O: thanks Tazzypillar: And it doesn't interfere at all with how my hardware relates to my sound? Tazzypillar: Like with my microphone and stuff. Alsa handles all of that? ryan22: dont know ryan22: here's how to remove pulse: http://ubuntu-ky.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8284273&postcount=4 Tazzypillar: o: ryan22: i doubt it would ryan22: pulseaudio actually just uses alsa as a backend ryan22: be careful though. canonical has made pulseaudio a dependency of everything in lucid, so i would only remove it on your own if you have problems ryan22: those istructions do work 100% in karmic though, i just havent tried them on lucid Tazzypillar: Alright Tazzypillar: I'll see if I can make things work right any other wya Tazzypillar: way* Tazzypillar: if not i guess pulse has to go :U Tazzypillar: thanks for all your help~ c: ryan22: no rpob ;) eto: hello i just found out some of your artucles about linux steam client is this true? Galaxy|: eto: they pulled the client from public view about 2 weeks ago so it remains to be said what it is or if its ever going to see the light of day Galaxy|: if it turns out to be true it might just be the next best thing since sliced bread eto: Galaxy| how high do you thing are the chances it might happen? Galaxy|: Galaxy|: given Valve's random behavior in this department its hard to speculate Galaxy|: and those who usually do end up wrong eto: understood Galaxy|: I think they do it on purpose Galaxy|: to blow people out of the water Rednaxela: I suspect steam for linux will come eventually... the question is... how warped Valve Time will be ryan22: i think the frameworks will have to mature a bit ryan22: right now the sound apis are kinda horrible ryan22: pulseaudio is pretty unreliable nad is not optimised for low latency (it is instead optimized for low pwer use) ryan22: ALSA is a pain to program for as it is a ugly mix of high and low level code ryan22: audio is going to be a huge problem for game development on linux and there currently isnt much being done to solve it Rednaxela: I kind of wish there would be a single common API for sound servers and sound-providing APIs to use Rednaxela: in the same way that OGL is a relatively standardized API ryan22: i really like OSS4 as its very low and simple and is standard among unixes ryan22: that means it could be very easily abstracted into a high level wrapper, and not have the problems of pulse and alsa Rednaxela: Ah, you mean a higher level api that is like OSS4's api but can be backed on other things? ryan22: the reason why pulse is so unrealible is because it only supports 70% of alsa's functions. it turns out almost all games depend on the other 30% ryan22: higher level as in uses OSS4 but is made easy to develop for and can be ported to other oss ryan22: basically pulse but done right and keep simple ryan22: *kept Rednaxela: Heh ryan22: they got to fancy with pulse and it became a giant kitchen sink Rednaxela: My issue with pulseaudio (and ESD, and so on), is that to me it seems completely unnecessary to have that additional layer. Perhaps a common API wrapper, but not a silly daemon ryan22: it doesnt help thats it the pet project of the maintainers in a lot of distros, and theyve spent 2 years deving it for fun and they dont want to give it up ryan22: ya this would be more of a api wrapper than a service Rednaxela: Yeah Rednaxela: I was dismayed when I found out about pulseaudio's adoption in ubuntu Rednaxela: Since, for me anyway, I've always had the best luck with pure ALSA ryan22: here's a good write up by one of pulse's devs on why pulse is taking the direction its taking ryan22: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-May/011343.html Rednaxela: And Ubuntu has an awful lot of clout in terms of what sort of configurations people will support ryan22: which is horrific cuz ubuntu does very little actual development ryan22: they backport from debian and thats about it and talk very little to the outside world ryan22: they are very focus on getting linux organized and getting a community behind it to the point that they get very little done ryan22: its endless roadmaps, committees and meetings Rednaxela: Gah, that mailing list post makes me cringe Rednaxela: It seems so silly... the amount of apparently required effort to fix kernel drivers, to support the odd power saving mode of operation of pulseaudio =\ ryan22: as it should, the devs are going in the wrong direction, expecting everyone else to accomedate them Rednaxela: Yeah ryan22: they are in a bubble :p Rednaxela: From a pure "lets's save power" perspective it seems like the optimal direction, but it seems to fail to consider anything else ryan22: and the funny thing is that "saving power" just leads to you hearing randoming popping noise when your computer is idling on ubuntu ryan22: as they are continuely turning off the chip Rednaxela: Haha ryan22: im not even sure how much pwer sound even takes up. the hd, cpu and wifi are the biggest culprits of power comsuption Rednaxela: Yeah ryan22: in any case, having a networkable sound server has its benefits Rednaxela: I'm all for something that saves power, but it seems to me that Pulseaudio is the wrong layer to accomplish that in, rather the very low level (i.e. ALSA, OSS4) is the layer to accomplish that in Rednaxela: Far less hacks that way Rednaxela: and far less broken ryan22: but the implementation of pulseaudio just sucks cuz alsa is so messy ryan22: if you build a house on shaken foundation, it will shift and crack Galaxy|: the screen in most laptops takes more power than the CPUs now adays Galaxy|: its kind of sad really Rednaxela: ryan22: Well, worse than that, they seem to be building the house, without taking the foundation OR future contents into much consideration Rednaxela: Hah, yeah Rednaxela: Actually, during screen brightness from full to half, cuts my laptop's power consumption in half Rednaxela: (Thus why I'm looking forward to OLED displays, and not just the OLED backlighted kind) ryan22: they are also making pulse a dependency of everything too ryan22: gnome-media installs pulseaudio on karmic and lucid Rednaxela: Yeah, that's what bothers me most about Ubuntu's adoption of it: it's in such a manner that it gives no choice ryan22: gnome-setting-daemon has pulseaudio as a dependency on lucid because they wanted ambitent sounds on the log-in screen Rednaxela: And I'm thinking to myself, shouldn't gnome-media use gstreamer or something instead of pulseaudio? ryan22: it does ryan22: but the voume control in ubuntu depends on pulse Rednaxela: . . . sigh Rednaxela: sigh sigh sigh ryan22: and if you compile it w/o pulse support, you get no volume control ryan22: :p Rednaxela: http://www.gstreamer.net/data/doc/gstreamer/head/gst-plugins-base-plugins/html/gst-plugins-base-plugins-volume.html Rednaxela: gstreamer HAS apis pertaining to volume ryan22: xfce is a bit better as you can select what api you use Rednaxela: =\ ryan22: but ubuntu wanted a volume control with per-app controls in ubuntu ryan22: so they kind of hard coded it Rednaxela: Bleh ryan22: its a mess Rednaxela: So the pulseaudio devs are stuck in a bubble, and the ubuntu devs are blindfolded and have earplugs on ryan22: and its mostly cuz ubuntu has very little direction Rednaxela: Heh, what little direction it seems to have, is in the wrong direction as far as sound goes Azerthoth|D: ubuntu devs have lots of direction "Make it Mac" ryan22: profitiablity is not a concern for shuttleworth has he already has buckets of cash ryan22: so making it efficient or even making it work is 2nd priority to having pretty menus :p ryan22: its become his toy Azerthoth|D: oops did I forget sarcasm tags again? ryan22: most of the people invloved with ubuntu too arent even devs ryan22: the leader of the xubuntu project cant code a bash script ryan22: they have one coder ryan22: ^xubuntu ryan22: its all "community" and organizing but very little actually coding... ryan22: eh ryan22: idk i think in order for the linux desktop to take off it need to better and easier to use that both the mac and windows ryan22: it needs to be a paradigm shift. emulating windows or mac is going to get it nowhere Rednaxela: Agreed ryan22 Rednaxela: and... I think in it's early days, Ubuntu innovated notably in that front actually Rednaxela: but these days.... it's lost that ryan22: it did ryan22: jockey and update manger are great utilites ryan22: same with ubiquity and the netinstaler Rednaxela: The ease of systemwide software updates in linux distributions in general is one major reasons I'll probably never consider using windows for my main system ryan22: ubuntu has brought linux a great way forward. but it is starting stall Rednaxela: (more so with rolling release distributions like Arch and Gentoo than others though) Rednaxela: Yeah, for sure ryan22: apt-get is a thing of beauty ryan22: i think the prob is these end-user distros are focusing too much on being free and easy-to-use ryan22: those things are great but they are a means to an end Rednaxela: Well, I think if Steam comes to Linux that would go a long way, haha Rednaxela: laughs ryan22: desktop linux needs a purpose and a killer app like apache and mysql Rednaxela: Yeah ryan22: and we need to stop marketing it as free Rednaxela: To me, the package mangers are the biggest killer app Rednaxela: but for many people, they won't see that as being the case ryan22: server linux didnt tke over cuz it free, it took over cuz it it was easily to maintain and customible Rednaxela: instead being of the "why update?" mentality ryan22: eh it just has to phrased in the right why ryan22: never having to go to a website to download a program, your system updating itself in 3 clicks Rednaxela: Yeah, but I can see a lot of windows users who might try it thinking "Eh? Wht's it bugging me to update so much!" Rednaxela: Yeah, that is nice ryan22: break up the updates in weekly capsules ryan22: so theres a testing window and the users arent continuely bothered DonScott: freedom is actually a better word to describe it than free. Rednaxela: Yeah, that's a good idea Ryan Rednaxela: Also, use rolling releases on more mainstream distros >_> Rednaxela: because, seriously, major version updates in ubuntu are irritating Rednaxela: and unnecessary to the design of a distro ryan22: well i called for a change in the ubuntu dvelopment a while ago ryan22: but i was called a loon as "devs cant package their own software" ryan22: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-May/011310.html ryan22: the devs in the current distros want to maintain but i dont think that is economically possible if desktop linux takes off ryan22: *everything ryan22: the app store has 100,000 apps. theres no way any single organisation can bug test that much code ryan22: i think the best option is to switch to doing just basic testing for non-default apps (does it install, open and not crash) and add them to a repo to be pushed to every user after a week ryan22: make "releases" a specification to build packages towards and freeze the code os each year ryan22: *core Rednaxela: Eh ryan22: oh well, ive obviously thought about this too much Rednaxela: Every year seems slightly too me anyway ryan22: well packages could be continued to be built for each release for years Rednaxela: As someone who has used rolling-release distros for many years, I don't really see much of a need for "releases" even in the sense you state ryan22: it would be very similar to the release system of windows and mac os x Rednaxela: I would say that only default settings should be frozen in such a way, don't need builds locked between them ryan22: the problem with pure rolling release system is that they reuire too much testing. with the core libraries in flux, each application has to be made sure that it works with the current libraries ryan22: it doesn;t scale all that well either. i think a compromise between the two systems is best Rednaxela: Well, generally libraries with conflicting versions can be installed in parallel if necessary. For example if some things use one version of libjpeg, and others use another version, having both at once is no issue. In Gentoo the concept is formalized as "slotted versions" or something if I remember right ryan22: that parallelization costs you big time in memeory use ryan22: its why windows and mac os x take up so much memory Rednaxela: considering how few things ever need it, I'd say not so much ryan22: they can have up to 5 versions of each library in memory Rednaxela: in windows and mac os x, that's done for even minor revisions of libraries Rednaxela: what I mean is only major version changes that would intentionally break things Rednaxela: And really, I think libraries breaking forward compatibility is really very very rare ryan22: even using 64-bit linux leads to about a doubling in memory due to needing both the 32-bit and 64-bit libraries Rednaxela: Only seen it occur a couple of times really Rednaxela: Well yes, but the 64-bit scenario is a whole other fiasco, heh ryan22: that year long window could lead to more ambitious updates to the libraries as well ryan22: as they wont have to maintain binary compatibility with each other, devs could more risks for their ideas and have more time to test them out ryan22: *take ryan22: no pulseaudios :p Rednaxela: Heh, maybe Rednaxela: How broadly are you defining the "core" you'd want to see frozen periodically? Rednaxela: (i.e. would it for example include GTK?) ryan22: the kernel, userland, and x ryan22: the other libraries could be updated in periodic minor updates that maintain binary compatibility Rednaxela: Heh ryan22: but would be separate from the application update mechanism ryan22: more like service packs Rednaxela: I just have to say this: Even though I run Arch with testing repos enabled even, I've only once ever run into a library breaking compatibility in an ungraceful way (was libjpeg) Rednaxela: shrugs ryan22: theres a lot of compliation involved with updating these libraries though on a rolling release distro that has to be avoided ryan22: pure rolling system doesnt work well with binary systems ryan22: and mass market desktop linux would have to be binary due to compliation time issues Rednaxela: With that attitude, one would think Arch would never ever work and be broken all the time :) Rednaxela: Yet... I've had much less breakage when updating than with Ubuntu ryan22: well im looking more at gentoo ryan22: ;) ryan22: and debian unstable ryan22: arch is proably the only rooling release ive seen done right ryan22: where the core os is throughlly tested before it is pushed Rednaxela: When I was on Gentoo I started having this huge "USE Flag" list that annoyed me to no end... but with Arch... I found that things worked really well out of the box :) Rednaxela: Yeah, and actually, even if you run arch-testing instead of stable arch, it's still very stable in my experience Rednaxela: Only potential difficulty is you'll hit a libjpeg roadbump a little earlier than everyone else Rednaxela: Well, there was one time I ran into a badly broken intel video driver and kernel version ryan-mini__: just a little more formalized Rednaxela: but that got pushed out of testing too and I just hit it earlier than I would have otherwise ryan-mini__: the radeon drivers are a bit of a pain in terms of needing specifically kernels Rednaxela: Ah ryan22_: and mesa and x server for that manner ryan22_: alsa is pretty kernel independent Rednaxela: (The badly broken video I mean is... kernel panic when pulling out of powersaving, or when some ogl programs run) Rednaxela: Ah yeah ryan22: there arent a lot of beenefits though to continously updating the kernel and x server Rednaxela: Well, I find that every so often the intel driver gets a big performance boost ryan22: and the end user can not be expected to upgrade x server as it requires you to be in the CLI interface, or bad things happen ryan22: wel thats cuz the intel guys are the main ppl writing the kernel DRM Rednaxela: Mhmm ryan22: theres not really much difference if you use a nvidia card or the flgrx driver ryan22: in fact the fglrx driver half the time doesnt even work with the latest kernel or x server :p Rednaxela: laughs Rednaxela: so it breaks when *either* upgrades? Sheesh ryan22: man the forum posts on phoronix are awlful Rednaxela: Generally lower levels should keep backwards compatibility ryan22: ubuntu had to include a prerelease version of fglrx so it was compatible with the x server in lucid ryan22: but i think a tri-annual upgrade sould be enough for the desktop environment and its libraries, as theya rent updated wholescale ass that often anyways ryan22: *all Rednaxela: Hm I suppose ryan22: really only applications need to be continously upgraded ryan22: different packages have different needs and implications i guess ryan22: so they should be tested differently Rednaxela: Well yes Rednaxela: What makes me depressed though is how Ubuntu looks politically unwilling to innovate these days, and the political clout it holds is so high... =\ Rednaxela: For example, no matter how much I'd love to see a a mainstream distro with a balance like you describe, I just don't see there as being much chance of success... In part due to how well Ubuntu is at taking most potential new users ryan22: well what im trying to do is give is ive ubuntu a purpose ryan22: and i think media and social networking is key ryan22: because those arent inegrated well into any desktop os ryan22: theres ptential there that has to be taken advantage of ryan22: ubuntu has idological sparkle that could easily overrided with function and purpose ;) Rednaxela: Yeah.... well... I don't think Ubuntu's internal politics will lend itself well to being convinced to innovate and gain purpose Rednaxela: not unless Shuttleworth decrees it anyway DonScott: what are ubuntu's internal politics ? Rednaxela: Bureaucracy? :) ryan22: ubuntu hates me with a passion DonScott: why ? ryan22: im a leecher who has not contributed to their project ryan22: and made my own distrubtuioon from their code ryan22: maybe hate me with a pasion is a strong word ryan22: but the people on the mailing dont really like me :p Azerthoth|D: ah yes the old 'do as I say not as I do" standard ryan22: made you i have made a few mistakes ryan22: the post i put on the mailing list about chromium was one of them, i really should have researched srware iron more beofe i posted that ryan22: i can be a bit... flamboyant too when writing on online because i dont want to be ignored ryan22: and its really easy for a bureaucracy to ignore you :P Sonic1: Valve still keeping you guys busy with new client outings?