mastertheknife: Sir_Brizz:
mastertheknife: Sir_Brizz: here?
mastertheknife: Sir_Brizz: where do you see on alfred's shirt 9 june?
babai: mastertheknife: the middle of the three logos
babai: *in
mastertheknife: wow is that serious
mastertheknife: i must find it
babai: mastertheknife: that phoronix irc log posted on that steam forum is damn funny :P
DeathCrawler: xD
Sir_Gallantmon: >_>
Sir_Gallantmon: http://code.google.com/p/lugaru/downloads/list
Sir_Gallantmon: binaries for Linux, OSX, and Windows have been released
Sir_Gallantmon: along with a source code snapshot
DeathCrawler: :>
DeathCrawler: w8in for Aquaria
mastertheknife: heh
Azerthoth|D: woot, android for iphone 3G ... done
mikeplus64: Out of curiosity, what Linux distro(s) are you running? ( unless you're not, of course )
mikeplus64: I'm running Arch now.
JEEB: has been running mainly ubuntu, but has looked over the fence to Arch as well as tried the original Debian.
jumbers: Ubuntu on both my servers and my notebook
ackondro: ubuntu:netbook/desktop debian: server
jumbers: Ubuntu makes a fine server
mikeplus64: I recommend Arch for a desktop distro, I'm not sure how well it would be as a server because of it's 'bleeding edge/rolling release' nature.
mikeplus64: *as not for
Sleepy_Coder: Arch isn't as anal-retentive as Debian or Gentoo about security, for desktops I love the bleeding-edgy...ness. Servers I use Funtoo, Gentoo, Debian, FreeBSD...
babai: mikeplus64: even if it is bleeding edge all the packages undergo heavy testing by the admins and mostly by the testing repo users and then only its released as stable
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, it's not like Arch doesn't do testing or doesn't have as many people to do it... I just think things are not as strictly-run as in other distros :>
Sleepy_Coder: I appreciate current software over security :<
mikeplus64: babai: Yep, just more 'bleeding edge' than say CentOS or something.
mikeplus64: Not that I would ever run that.
mikeplus64: ( unless I really needed to )
babai: though many run it on their servers
Sleepy_Coder: hehehe
meGenius|Home: what the hell arch is??
babai: mostly practicing for their rhce certification :)
Sleepy_Coder: >.>
meGenius|Home: why you are so impressed in that distro :/
meGenius|Home: Fedora forever :P
babai: use it and ull be too
Sleepy_Coder: die you.
Sleepy_Coder: :p
Sleepy_Coder: doesn't like rpm
mikeplus64: I used to run Fedora but I was sick of PulseAudio pooping it's ugly head up once in a while.
meGenius|Home: why??
Sleepy_Coder: Or any package manager that relies on things it installs.
Sleepy_Coder: pacman statically linked <3
mikeplus64: I <3 pacman. :)
meGenius|Home: what does that mean??
Sleepy_Coder: It doesn't link against any libraries that it may be installing :>
Sleepy_Coder: Static-linking means the code it relies upon, that it usually links against libraries for, is contained within its executable instead :>
Sleepy_Coder: Sort of self-contained :}
meGenius|Home: still don't understand ...
Sleepy_Coder: ldd /usr/bin/dpkg
jumbers: If there's a proper dependencies system, that's not really important and if anything, makes packages larger
Sleepy_Coder: Depends on the program I thinks :>
Sleepy_Coder: Dynamic linking was of course done to prevent code duplication, but some programs--simple ones like hello world XD--benefit from not linking with anything.
Sleepy_Coder: While it's probably not worth the speed of statically-linking everything, I like statically-linking pacman in case I severely break something and I need my package manager to work in the worst of cases :>
Sleepy_Coder: I've had... certain experiences with Gentoo when I break portage...
Sleepy_Coder: And then I can't even fix it because the package it needs is also needed to install itself... >.>
Sleepy_Coder: Just sort of chicken and the egg thing
mikeplus64: is reminded of the haunting dependency hell I managed to get OpenSUSE in somehow.
Sleepy_Coder: I never ever trust a package manager to do a perfect job every time. ;> There have been very few times where I did need a statically-linked pacman, but I was very happy to have one :>
Sleepy_Coder: Well now I'm just sort of blabbering on...
Sleepy_Coder: hides
Sleepy_Coder: btw
Sleepy_Coder: user@box ~ $ du -h hello-world
Sleepy_Coder: 8.0K hello-world
Sleepy_Coder: user@box ~ $ gcc -o hello-world{,.c} -static
Sleepy_Coder: user@box ~ $ du -h hello-world
Sleepy_Coder: 640K hello-world
babai: mikeplus64: ya, i had that too with slack (many of us have it with slack i guess)
Sir_Brizz: mastertheknife: it's the middle iPhone icon
Sir_Brizz: it's the calendar app set to June 9
Sleepy_Coder: holy crap I love my connection >.>
Sleepy_Coder: I didn't notice I transfered like 2GB in the background
Sleepy_Coder: I could swear I started this 30 mins ago...
JEEB: my ISP told me I'd get a free upgrade from 2mbps to 8mbps this month... but never really told when during the month >_>
babai: it sucks here in india :(
Sleepy_Coder: :<
Sleepy_Coder: You make me want to watch Slumdog Millionaire.
Sleepy_Coder: Or maybe Outsourced.
babai: that crap movie never deserved 8 oscars
Sleepy_Coder: XD
Sleepy_Coder: It did seem a bit rough in areas.
Sleepy_Coder: I liked Outsourced more.
babai: its their policy to encourage people to watch hollywood movies here
Sleepy_Coder: >.>
Sleepy_Coder: They're encouraging people to watch Hollywood movies there?
babai: poor benjamin button
babai: ya
Sleepy_Coder: Benjamin Button was <3
Sleepy_Coder: But the CG was very noticeable.
babai: hmm
Sleepy_Coder: And Brad Pitt is <3
babai: excellent makeup
giselher: Hy
Sleepy_Coder: True... :p
Sleepy_Coder: That movie almost made me cry. Almost.
babai: hmm, but shutter island almost made me crazzzy :P
Sleepy_Coder: Some of the dialogue was hard to understand.
Sleepy_Coder: I liked Shutter Island, except for the part where he relapsed :(
Sleepy_Coder: And his crying scene was a bit strange.
Sleepy_Coder: Not sure he did his best work there.
giselher: What the ... ? "Holy Shit, confirmed by Valve"?
Sleepy_Coder: But how would you expect a father to react to the death of his children? Don't think it's been done much in movies..
babai: i thought he relapsed on his own will , so they would do that surgery on him
babai: and make him lose his memories
somename: http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00267.html
Sleepy_Coder: Now that's an interesting interpretation I like better than mine... :o
Sleepy_Coder: goddamn I love my ssd >8D
Sleepy_Coder: Dunno why that copied so fast... wtf.
Sleepy_Coder: I mean, an SSD's read performance only goes so far, that was instant >.> /me flushes
Sleepy_Coder: is having a happy night :D
babai: giselher: link pls
giselher: babai: The topic says it.
krull: shutter island was a pleasant surprise. except the ending. quite cliche but very good.
krull: was quite impressed with it
DeathCrawler: June 9
DeathCrawler: True?
somename: could be possible maybe
DeathCrawler: :P
DeathCrawler: Penguins and dates
somename: if so ,they will announce it soon
somename: next week maybe
giselher: what is at June 9?
somename: linux client release
somename: its only speculation
giselher: link pls
somename: its only speculation
giselher: okey
DeathCrawler: gui
DeathCrawler: ops
DeathCrawler: giselher: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg
DeathCrawler: Is only speculation in the pic
DeathCrawler: 2 penguins and one date
somename: the right man is holding an iPad and there is 11:31 on it... thats the time when they will do it:p
somename: nah...
DeathCrawler: nope
DeathCrawler: 12 may
somename: nvm
DeathCrawler: somename: near mac mini is a penguin, huh?
somename: yeah
somename: from madagascar
DeathCrawler: nah
somename: sure... the movie
DeathCrawler: hidden
somename: heh...
somename: wtf
DeathCrawler: look in mac mini
somename: i do
Shunt31: looks a bit like a dock in the dell
DeathCrawler: somename: http://omploader.org/vNGMzZg
DeathCrawler: ^this
somename: thats a penguin?
DeathCrawler: Yea
DeathCrawler: looks like
somename: :O
DeathCrawler: 2 penguins in same pic
DeathCrawler: :P
Shunt31: in a mac, can you put the dock on te left edge?
DeathCrawler: Yea
Shunt31: aw
somename: no idea
DeathCrawler: Shunt31: Dock in Mac is very customizable
DeathCrawler: is an exception
DeathCrawler: :P
Shunt31: Sarcasm over the internet doesnt work very well
Shunt31: how'd you manage to find that photo?
r4: :o
somename: http://store.steampowered.com/news/3818/
Shunt31: ah, ok
somename: from there
Shunt31: that penguin looks like the one off surfs up, but still
Sir_Brizz: actually it's from Madagascar, pretty sure
giselher: Maybe, that's the only penguin the had
Shunt31: maybe. the mug looks like black mesa's logo though
Sir_Brizz: it is
r4: if you build it, they will come. (someone needs to send this msg to the valve answering machine)
Sir_Brizz: the penguin is probably from a McDonald's happy meal
r4: and use the actual line from field of dreams
Shunt31: I think that black and white are switched round
DeathCrawler: Sir_Brizz: Madagascar
DeathCrawler: ?
Sir_Brizz: the animated movie
Sir_Brizz: or the animated series "Penguins of Madagascar"
r4: apparently nobody finds that funny but me :P
Sir_Brizz: or the sequel, Madagascar 2
DeathCrawler: meh, see the other penguim?
Sir_Brizz: yeah
Sir_Brizz: he looks like he is holding the mac mini hostage
DeathCrawler: hehe
DeathCrawler: :D
Shunt31: I guess bms are giving out mugs now?
Shunt31: http://store.valvesoftware.com/productshowcase/productshowcase_BlackMesaMug.html
Sir_Brizz: indeed
Sir_Brizz: they've had that for a while
Sir_Brizz: lol
Sir_Brizz: Headcrab hat
DeathCrawler: i want torchlight in linux
DeathCrawler: :D
asciiwolf: hello
tkmorris: I want the sims 3/4 in Linux :\
asciiwolf: any news about Linux Steam?
asciiwolf: is there a working patch?
DeathCrawler: :/
DeathCrawler: tkmorris: EA Games.... =/
tkmorris: DeathCrawler: just sad...
DeathCrawler: ♬ Gamma Ray - 02 Fight - Majestic (3:02/3:26 88%) Volume 99 % [paused]
tkmorris: at least the sims 3 can wine
tkmorris: too bad I bought 2 also
Flyser_mobile: Hi. any news about steam? any new patches or updates since wednesday
Sir_Brizz: no
Flyser_mobile: okay, thanks :)
Shunt31: thinking aboutstatring to use arch
Shunt31: about starting*
tkmorris: what about Gentoo? Lunar?
Shunt31: arch seems easier to start with
giselher: <3 Arch
tkmorris: I use arch on my laptop
tkmorris: no compile times, so battery lasts longer
Azerthoth|D: if your on battery and compiling ... yer doing it wrong
tkmorris: if I can't update/install on baterry, I'm doing it wrong too
Shunt31: lucky I don't have a laptop then
tkmorris: they're useful sometimes, and the compiling thing is valid just for AUR packages on arch
tkmorris: and even so, not all of them
Wipster: shazam
Shunt31: slow news day today
Ivanovic: uhm, its sunday...
Shunt31: still
Wipster: the day for recovering
mastertheknife: lol at steam forums
mastertheknife: got warned for posting something in mac forums
Ivanovic: what *have* you posted?
mastertheknife: giselher: remember our posts in the portal thread
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: well.. something :D
somename: that pictures?
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: there was a thread called Portal Mouse issues, so i posted that i found this on IRC and couldn't resist because it matches the thread's name, and linked to that picture
giselher: mastertheknife: yeah,
mastertheknife: giselher: you got warned too ?
giselher: yeah :)
giselher: It seems he is mac user :)
mastertheknife: no doubt in that
mastertheknife: lol
Shunt31: Time to start messing wit Arch then
somename: a FPS based on penumbras engine would be awesome...
mastertheknife: somename: Agreed!
Flyser_mobile: could someone post the steam on linux etherpad link?
th0br0: http://openetherpad.com/ep/pad/view/0UmBOBf27q/latest
Wipster: penumbra
Wipster: damn windows focus
Flyser_mobile: thanks
th0br0: Flyser_mobile: I -- personally -- can't press any buttons tho
mastertheknife: Flyser_mobile: its outdated
th0br0: oh it is? where's the updated one, mastertheknife?
Flyser_mobile: th0br0: huh? what are you talking about
Flyser_mobile: mastertheknife: which parts have changed?
mastertheknife: Flyser_mobile: newest steamclient.so crashes the client
mastertheknife: There is a smart script made by Kano to put the old files
mastertheknife: I will try to find it, one second.
Flyser_mobile: so it regressed?
th0br0: huh mastertheknife? no? I actually checked everything out today and applied the vgui patch, no crashes
mastertheknife: Flyser_mobile: Create a new shell script and copy this into it, it will automaticly download steam, let it update, download patches and put old steamclient.so and libtier0_s.so back.. then start steam with /home/you/steam/run.sh
mastertheknife: th0br0: Ah interesting
mastertheknife: th0br0: Maybe there are new files now that dont crash anymore
mastertheknife: i will try to check
mastertheknife: Flyser_mobile: here is the link anyway if you are interested: http://pastie.org/private/dwailx3hojqmi6dhcnr2w
th0br0: oh no you're right
th0br0: after login it crashes
mastertheknife: Its because the new steamclient.so and libtier0_s.so are incompatible with the rest of the files, because those are newer and offsets have changed, the program needs to be re-compiled for those to work with it
d2kx: michaellarabel: any chance of HoN gone retail news?
mastertheknife: Flyser_mobile: the script does everything.. you will just need to do /home/you/steam/run.sh -login
th0br0: mh, mastertheknife. btw, no one has found the hl2 (or the like) binaries yet, right?
mastertheknife: th0br0: not that i know of
th0br0: ok
d2kx: no th0br0 but peopel discovered yesterday linux references in the startup files of portal for mac
th0br0: you mean that simple if part?
d2kx: theres nothing more yet
th0br0: k
Wipster: was the z axis played with?
mastertheknife: lol who is editing the pad? lol.
asraniel: mastertheknife: me ;)
somename: no, its chuck norris
somename: THIS IS SPARTA!!1
asraniel: mastertheknife: i don't always like scripts doing all the work, i like to have manual instructions (usefull when stuff changes and the scripts needs to be adapted)
asraniel: mastertheknife: true ;)
asraniel: really cool etherpad
s_20: mastertheknife: i haven't quite followed the development of events, so excuse this question.. are they only updating certain parts of the binaries?
asraniel: s_20: yes
s_20: howcome?
asraniel: s_20: that you have to ask valve ;)
s_20: intentionally breaking the publicly available version?
d2kx: protip: updated steamclient.so are probably built automatically and uploaded to the server
asraniel: s_20: i doubt. then they would remove it alltogether. and you can still download the old version manually. looks more like an error from their part
asraniel: s_20: they have other stuff todo anyway now with the osx release
s_20: well that's a crying shame then
mastertheknife: asraniel: oh
mastertheknife: s_20: Sometimes
s_20: they'd have a virtually unlimited number of highly motivated "beta testers" at their disposal ;)
mastertheknife: asraniel: Sorry it was kind of freaky at first.. :P
d2kx: there have been four or so steam mac updates since the launch, theyre working their asses of for that platform right now
mastertheknife: Anyway here is updated information how to get it to work, with the old information located below: http://openetherpad.com/ep/pad/view/0UmBOBf27q/latest?format=html
s_20: d2kx: i like to think there's at least one or two dedicated linux (client) people working there
mastertheknife: asraniel: etherpad is actually opensource, many sites use it, openetherpad is just a one, other sites feature password locking, etc
d2kx: thats very well possible, but they will have more developers working on that once osx gets stable. its very possible some developers develope both osx and linux
s_20: i wonder when they'll start announcing some sort of beta programme
d2kx: not just yet
d2kx: they havent even integrated webkit and finished font support yet
Nevtus: isn't the font problems because the textures OpenGL needs to use for them aren't included?
s_20: how big a deal is the latter?
mastertheknife: Nevtus: Its possible, the fonts are being converted to textures and then rendered
mastertheknife: Sophisticated system
Nevtus: I've heard of other programs doing that, I think Blender2.5 does
tootroot: Steam on GNU/Linux is a lie!
tootroot: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1313-QIPD-5381
tootroot: >There are no plans to create a native Linux Steam Client at this time.
tootroot: >Wed, 12th May 2010
giselher: tootroot: Until the day, they released the MAC, it also said there was no plan for the MAC client
tootroot: o rly?
tootroot: they bragged about it for a while didn't they?
tootroot: and how could it be so hard to port a mac client for GNU/Linux
tootroot: its basically the same shit with a few changes
giselher: yes it is, mostly
skyhirider: meh, support pages are older than mankind
skyhirider: they just removed the mac line without even thinking about the rest, does not mean anything
giselher: btw, the longer it takes the more it works under linux, and they have to integrated case-sensitiv code AFAIK
asraniel: tootroot: even after the release that page said that there was no osx client
tootroot: heh
tootroot: oh well, they should update that at least
tootroot: because it isn't THAT hard to port mac->linux
tootroot: might be harder for packages and stuff
tootroot: but give a tarball and let the community work with it or something
tootroot: let the distro people make a noob-friendly package
giselher: tootroot: almost all linux fs are case-sensitiv, that's the greatest problem I can think of
tootroot: and Mac isn't?!
Nevtus: by default, no
s_20: Nevtus: what.
Nevtus: also the people that set their Macs to case sensitive are screwed, Steam doesn't run
tootroot: wtf
giselher: Nevtus: using symlinks for all files
giselher: could help
tootroot: why dont they just hit the shift key less or more
tootroot: steam devs are crazy
giselher: tootroot: because windows is also not case-sensitiv, and nobody cares
Nevtus: it's sloppy even if the OS doesn't care
tootroot: ugh that sjust horrible code standards
tootroot: get your cases right and stop being lazy
giselher: every time I try to check a web page from my classmate, I have to redo the code, to get it working on a linux server
gitano: lol
gitano: "Never run commands in the terminal that start with or include "sudo" "wget" and/or "rm" without the user explaining why. These commands can harm your mac if you do not know what you are doing."
gitano: from the "steam for mac" faq
gitano: :p
ChemBro: that's a very good advice
somename: wget http://google.com/home/GOOGLE/Documents/virus.exe
somename: damn
gitano: :p yeah, especially the wget advice, heh
gitano: but they could've shortened that advice to "never run commands i the terminal"
giselher: lmao
Nevtus: I wonder how many mac users have never opened the terminal even once
th0br0: tootroot: actually, most of the osx software won't run on case sensitive fs. the whole adobe suite is just one popular example
tootroot: they should mention dd, etc
tootroot: or say "dont run anything in terminal you dumbass"
gitano: "like u never did, anyways"
gitano: "don't even try to understand your computer!"
giselher: or `sudo rm -fr /`, makes your system faster and gets you HL2
somename: aka "read mail really fast"
giselher: lol
mastertheknife: not running on case sensitive fs is easy to fix
gitano: :D
mastertheknife: its pure laziness
mastertheknife: this might be another reason mac was released first
gitano: ya
giselher: Maybe the only reason why they released it first on MAC, was the whining MAC community
Nevtus: maybe we've been overestimating why commercial linux apps are rare. They are just sloppy coders
tootroot: Mac is not an acronmy
tootroot: acronym*
giselher: OSX*
tootroot: yes maybe then :P
gitano: srsly, they should've released steam for linux first
somename: i agree
gitano: at least they'd have a more decent crowd giving feedback
tootroot: gitano: probably laziness. or apple bribing them
tootroot: something
giselher: but then the OSX guys would say *Nay, we want steam for mac nooow*
Nevtus: I prefer saying Mac OS, they can't stay on version X (10) forever, right?
tootroot: I just say Mac
tootroot: it's never "MAC" though
gitano: and giving better bugreports -> no much hassle when its coming to mac, then
tootroot: saying MAC about Macintoshes is......fail
Nevtus: MAC = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address
tootroot: yeah
giselher: even now we give better bugreports
tootroot: not an apple computer ;)
somename: tootroot: you mean macintrash
tootroot: heh
tootroot: GNU/Linux users give better bug reports than Windows users, and Macs users give even worse reports than Windows users.
gitano: giselher: ack :)
tootroot: It's only smart to release GNU/Linux first
mastertheknife: Mac users keep complaining that the steam UI doesn't follow OSX guidelines
gitano: yeah..so ridiculous
Nevtus: tootroot: Windows users might give a better stress test due to numbers though
d2kx: yeah i saw that too what a joke
giselher: we don't need a GUI, release a libsteam and steam-cli and I am happy
adrian_broher: or that steam looks like a webpage...
Nevtus: I doubt they'd do that, we'd miss out the ads
tootroot: ^
tootroot: or text-ads at least
gitano: i loved that one reply in the complaint threaf: "..so, how are the games? have u played any games?"
tootroot: steam-cli would be fun
d2kx: what ads? you can turn off the news window thats popping up at the startr
gitano: by rbarris, heh
tootroot: cli steam friends :D
Nevtus: d2kx: I know Steam isn't full of ads but I still think Valve wants control of the GUI for any future uses
gitano: tootroot: that'd be cool :)
mastertheknife: I hope OS X's old OpenGL won't prevent Valve from using newer OpenGL on Linux
tootroot: steam-friends like bitlbee in irssi.....
tootroot: would be pretty awesome
giselher: My card only supports 2.1
gitano: just a cli start wrapper for the content..nothing to get bothered with, heh
Nevtus: cli steam to start up native Portal 2. awesome
gitano: wants
mastertheknife: giselher: Thats okay, even if at later stage they go for OpenGL 3.X support, i'm sure 2.1 will be still supported, something like if SupportsOpenGL3X() == true, useOpenGL3X(), else, useOpenGL21()
tootroot: damn that would be sweet
tootroot: bitlbee-like steam friends
tootroot: someone should request the bitlbee devs do that
th0br0: http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/743321/8c59ac7b/berlusconi.html ... still, supporting different ogl major releases is a pita based on what features you need. but then again, the engine is rather old...
tootroot: sadly I think the s-friends protocol is closed source
mastertheknife: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14975146&postcount=90
mastertheknife: Waiting for a reply from rbarris
tootroot: he won't reply ;-)
giselher: I want XMPP for steam friends
tootroot: valve rarley posts in the forums nor do they often reply to posts directed at them
tootroot: you're better off opening a support ticket to ask stuff to them
mastertheknife: tootroot: he actually replied to those kind of questions before
th0br0: giselher: should be doable, shouldn't it? i mean... you'd just have to hook some functions ;P (which gladly we know as they're exporting most of the function names...)
tootroot: hm weird, don't see it happen often
mastertheknife: tootroot: he also replied to my question what OpenGL version is used (In the first pages of that thread)
tootroot: at least they dont reply often to l4d2 forums I know for sure
tootroot: maybe they want to pretend they care @ Mac forums
d2kx: mastertheknife but the post of rbarris already reads as if they are pushing the limits when possible, so i think theres a good chance of better opengl usage
tootroot: tbh harass apple to update the opengl packages
d2kx: they do that tootroot
tootroot: and nothing happens
somename: http://media.bestofmicro.com/7/U/240042/original/691404701.jpg
tootroot: you need to take more action :P
mastertheknife: d2kx: Yeah, i hope.
somename: for those who didnt see it yet
tootroot: cOLD
d2kx: cool that rbarris even posts on sundays
mastertheknife: Yeah hes very friendly
tootroot: if I worked for valve.......
Nevtus: I'm surprised he's still responding after everyone mentioned the wine-like thing
tootroot: i'd post daily and open source some stuff to have you guys code the steam client
tootroot: :P
DonScott: send a resume...they might be looking for more linux developers
DonScott: you never know
tootroot: I have 0 job experence
d2kx: let me quote valve's job site "We're always hiring for all positions. Seriously."
tootroot: I am only 21 and never had a job, I don't think they would want me :P
tootroot: and I've been VAC banned before, so that doesn't help
tootroot: never hacked thankfully
mastertheknife: tootroot: cheated? :S
tootroot: no
Nevtus: you'd just have to prove yourself to be a good coder/artist/whatever
tootroot: but got banned somehow, guessing a mistake at identifying WINE as a wallhack or something
DonScott: send them a cd/dvd of your work as a resume.
mastertheknife: tootroot: I also have a VAC banned account
tootroot: heh I haven't made much work that would give "good credit" to my name >:P
tootroot: most of my stuff I have worked on could be used for "evil" reasons
tootroot: though not intended
mastertheknife: tootroot: I have 2 accounts, so i used to let my brother play on the 2nd one which i don't use.. one day i found its VAC banned, i wanted to kill him that day...
tootroot: heh, I never let anyone use my account, so I was really depressed
tootroot: had like 500 bucks worth of games :P
mastertheknife: tootroot: he's just 10 years old and has so many cheats on his computer.. i deleted them all and made him a new account with just CS 1.6 (the only game he plays)
Nevtus: wow
d2kx: you can still play SP and non secure servers
tootroot: I still dont know for sure what triggered the ban, but my only guess would be it detecting WINE as Wallhack or something
somename: 10 years old and playing cs 1.6?
Nevtus: first I've heard of getting VAC banned because of wine
tootroot: my old VAC'd account is only VAC'd in source, so l4d1/2 still works, so I gave that to someone I know from an irc channel and play l4d2 with them somteimes :D
Nevtus: somename: sounds about right
d2kx: its not that uncommon somename
mastertheknife: somename: Yeah, my 7 year old brother also plays it
d2kx: we did regular lan parties with cs at the age of 11
tootroot: Nevtus: that's the only non-Valve program I have used on a VAC secured server
tootroot: so eh
tootroot: I did get phished like an idiot a few years ago, but recovered and he never regained access. Unless a VAC ban was delayed for 3+ years, it was WINE that triggered it.
tootroot: I know VAC bans delay a few months at most, but never heard years
mastertheknife: tootroot: How is L4D2? is it any different than L4D other than new maps and characters?
tootroot: l4d2 pwns 1 imo
tootroot: the physics are a lot better
tootroot: runs smoother
tootroot: better overall
tootroot: its not as creepy without it being night-time, but w/e
mastertheknife: tootroot: I bought L4D when it just came out, was so disappointed to see 6 months later their announcement of L4D2
DonScott: same
tootroot: yeah, they are a lot different though
mastertheknife: tootroot: Oh L4D2 isn't nighttime?
mastertheknife: I loved nighttime of L4D
tootroot: it's daytime in most maps iirc
tootroot: vs mode is a lot better in 2
mastertheknife: But thankfully, because both games are still new and aren't too different, they are both still played
tootroot: in 1, you can destroy them in 1 round, and it's basically game over with them having 2k points
tootroot: in 2, you have a max number of points you can get
tootroot: reduces rage quitting a lot
tootroot: makes more fair
tootroot: overall 2 is better I'd say
tootroot: they do have some night-time maps for 2
mastertheknife: I love the dark maps of L4D though
tootroot: but non-official
tootroot: I am hoping if/when they make a new l4d2 dlc (hopefully free like the last), it will be night time :D
DonScott: once they get it running on linux i'mma buy it an ET:QW
mastertheknife: IMO the only problem with L4D1 is that it can't run in dx8 mode.. its locked to dx9
tootroot: there are a few maps in l4d2 that are night, now that I think of it............
tootroot: but not all of them are
mastertheknife: So its painfully slow through wine
mastertheknife: Heh in L4D2 there is also a witch ?
tootroot: yes a lot of them >:3
mastertheknife: I LOVED playing L4D in a dark room with loud speakers
mastertheknife: suddenly hearing the witch
mastertheknife: wow.. what an experience
mastertheknife: but i had to play it in windows all the time :(
tootroot: the "heavy rain" campaign is at dusk-time, that's the only one I can think of in 2 that is night-time.
tootroot: though hopefully they will make a new free dlc with new night maps :P
mastertheknife: I will buy L4D2 to try it out when it comes out for linux
tootroot: or we can live with fan-made maps, but often buggy and not many people playing them
mastertheknife: heh.
tootroot: if/when it comes out ;)
mastertheknife: do you still play L4D ?
tootroot: tbh if they dont release it, they are losing cash
mastertheknife: L4D1 i mean
tootroot: not that much, 2 is better, but if someone wants me to join in a game in 1 ill play
mastertheknife: they will release L4D and L4D2 for Mac, so most likely for linux too.
DonScott: i wanna but portal 2 , LFD2, and ET:QW when they get steam running on linux
tootroot: I never play with pubbers on 1, it's HORRIBLE due to the point system
tootroot: 2 is decent with pubbers
tootroot: still not as fun as it would be with friends, but actually playable
mastertheknife: Also.. the original L4D main screen was much more scary than current one
tootroot: yeah, and the menus are cleaner in 1
mastertheknife: DonScott: you should also try L4D, they aren't too different it seems, and because they are both new L4D is still played a lot
tootroot: they wanted to appeal more to casual gamers in 2, which is a good thing though
DonScott: i already have LFD
mastertheknife: tootroot: The current L4D menu is a lighthouse
tootroot: you should pirate l4d1 and l4d2, and compare the differences in single-player physics
tootroot: 2 is a lot better
DonScott: bought it when it ame out
mastertheknife: tootroot: Original one was with smoke
mastertheknife: tootroot: Nah no point, i have L4D and i will buy L4D2 when it comes out for linux :)
tootroot: well the phyiscs are a lot different :P or dl the demo if you can find it
tootroot: legally you can "pirate" demos iirc
DonScott: valve makes good games no need to pirate them.
tootroot: yeah I agree
SimmyD: sooo steam yet?
tootroot: nope
SimmyD: >_<
RambJoe: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg
RambJoe: whats that on his shirt
RambJoe: june 9
tootroot: WTF @ TF2 ON IPAD
gitano: hehehe
tootroot: never seen that img before
Nevtus: Is that an iphone tshirt?
gitano: u guys still busy decyphering that pic? :)
th0br0: I don't think that's important RambJoe
Nevtus: tootroot: it's on the news page of Valve
th0br0: but with valve you never know
th0br0: fact is though, he's got working fonts etc. I'm wondering why we don't have 'em
DonScott: that penguin is a spy
Nevtus: if you mised the first version of the conversation here dissecting that image, you missed out
gitano: is still tryingto interpret the 2 penguins task
th0br0: or wait, that's a mac system (The big one), my bad.
RambJoe: wait a minute
RambJoe: thats alfred reyonolds in the picture
RambJoe: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html
RambJoe: He also does his best to maintain the Linux ports of our games
gitano: at least, their both pretty much centered in the pic, arent they? :)
RambJoe: he is the man who is doing the linux ports
somename: we should clone that guy some couple times to increase the developing speed
tootroot: DonScott: only steam games ive pirated would be to see single-player physics to compare them with some other games
tootroot: I usually buy team stuff because they aren't DRM idiots unlike other places (ubisoft, etc)
DonScott: steam is still drm....but it works for you rather than calling you a criminal for buying their stuff.
tootroot: well
tootroot: yeah it's drm
tootroot: but not as crappy as most drm
gitano: yeah
Nevtus: tootroot: didn't you say you lost 500 games to VAC though?
gitano: used to be a steam hater once
DonScott: ubisoft is retarded
gitano: but comparing it to other "solutions" on the market, tis pretty good
DonScott: they probably increased their piracy
tootroot: Nevtus: no, I still own the games and can play single player
tootroot: and only lost like 100 bucks worth
Nevtus: I understand you can still play them, but it's still DRM
tootroot: its pretty good compared to most drm "solutions"?
tootroot: yeah
gitano: one of the best things, imo is that it allowed quite some indie developers to actually get on the market
tootroot: you cant expect a large company to have 0 DRM
tootroot: else they would be down the drains
Nevtus: it'd be cool seeing indies release on Steam with Windows+Linux+Mac versions
tootroot: they do for win+mac right now :P
tootroot: +Linux prolly
Nevtus: many of them offered the non-windows versions on their website
tootroot: Gabe tried Chrome but went back to Firefox
tootroot: win
gitano: yep, but not really useful if the steam version has integrated steamworks
somename: http://xkcd.com/225/ rofl
mamalujo: lololo
mamalujo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aeQ3DmKU7A
gitano: Nevtus: speaking 'bout indie developers, there ya go: http://news.bigdownload.com/2010/05/04/rumor-is-a-mac-version-of-killing-floor-in-the-works
gitano: ;)
tootroot: heh, valve made games don't require much cpu eh
tootroot: er gpu either
tootroot: I am maxing out my GPU and CPU on tripcode producing and yet I am getting ~40 fps in tf2
mamalujo: hahahaha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks!_The_Fighting_Guerrillas
DonScott: man i want steam on linux so bad
Nevtus: RambJoe: on the steam forums you should that Alfred has a penguin on his shirt, where?
mastertheknife: steam is DRM but their DRM implemention is good, not like ubisoft's
DonScott: not only will it be good for current developers...it will give the game companies an idea of how much marketshare linux has.
RambJoe: Oh shit i mean table
DonScott: the penguin is next the blackmesa coffee cup and that fuzzy green thing but i'm sure you alreay found it lol
RambJoe: wasn't June 9 the day the iphone was announced?
Nevtus: it does look like an iphone shirt
RambJoe: although it says Tuesday 9 on the actual phone
RambJoe: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/IPhone_3GS_with_home_screen.png
Nevtus: what do iphones have to do with linux though?
RambJoe: nothing, just wondering what the message is on his shirt
RambJoe: like the 3 icons could spell something out
gitano: Nevtus: they can run it, now :p
Nevtus: I don't see any mention of a June 9th date on the iphone wikipedia page
RambJoe: whether its linux related or not
RambJoe: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/88/IPhone_3GS_with_home_screen.png
rsk: DonScott the penguin? there's another with a red magic wand poking the mac mini
RambJoe: it says tueday 9 on the calander icon
RambJoe: that was a picture from the announcement day, whcih I remember was june (i think) 9th
Nevtus: is the far right picture a ballon?
The_Muh: holy shit....
The_Muh: fucking worm ....
gitano: mhm, some portal conecept art, perhaps
Nevtus: no on the tshirt
Nevtus: obviously the picture on the wall is portal concept art
RambJoe: looks like one of the pin markers on google maps
The_Muh: you ever played penumbra until the part with the goddamn worm?
Nevtus: so it's clock, calender, maps
gitano: ya
The_Muh: i got real panic at this part...
d2kx: did you notice they have adblock plus button in firefox
Nevtus: The_Muh: I'm not too far in to the Penumbra Collection yet, please don't spoil it! :P
RambJoe: oh yeah lol
RambJoe: iphones definately show the day on calander icon, not month
gitano: Nevtus: i just luv gabes expression on the pic
The_Muh: Nevtus: oh... sry.
gitano: "the patriarch gives a decent smile"
gitano: "told ya its coming"
gitano: :p
mesula: How close are we to getting Steam running on Linux?
mesula: How is http://www.steamonlinux.com/ confirmation?
mesula: WTF Phoronix? We haven't had confirmation yet.
mesula: Phoronix editors seem to just make up rumour and speculation. I've yet to see any official confirmation.
giselher: mesula: http://openetherpad.com/ep/pad/view/0UmBOBf27q/latest?format=html
giselher: mesula: Yes there is no official confirmation.
mesula: giselher: So Phoronix editors have been lying to everyone.
rsk: yep
rsk: that's how they roll
mesula: I think I'll cancel my subscription.
giselher: and micheallarabel hides himself in his cellar
mesula: giselher: Have you got any up-to-date screenshots?
mesula: giselher: I CBA to run it myself.
asraniel: mesula: the theory is that the telegraph used the phoronix rumor to announce that news, and then phoronix used the telegraph news that is based on the phoronix news to confirm it
asraniel: mesula: the other news is that somebody actually wrote to the telegraph and ask from where they have that linux story, and they answered that they have it from an valve employe
The_Muh: or its just a tricky marketing from valve... remember the portal-2-hints
mesula: So there's no official confirmation, just rumour and possible lying?
rsk: please
rsk: do i have to say it again?
rsk: :)
gitano: thats what one calls unwanted resonance in physics, heh
mesula: The_Muh: And no, I don't remember those hints.
asraniel: mesula: which brings us to the third story, that phoronix has the news from an valve employe, but is not allowed to bring it out until valve says so. then phoronix saw that news by the telegraph, already knowing its a real news, and released the whole announcement anyway, thinking that valve would now really announce it
mesula: I want my God damn Linux gaming already.
gitano: mesula: patience, tiger ;)
gitano: been waiting 5 years, now
mesula: same
gitano: few weeks/ months more wont matter, heh
The_Muh: mesula: play nexuiz, warsow, wesnoth, lugaru and penumbra
mesula: I want my TF2, CSS, HL2, etc to work without hacking with Wine.
The_Muh: =)
somename: and without low FPS
mesula: The_Muh: That's not enough.
mesula: somename: Yeah!
mesula: And without sound bugs and crap.
The_Muh: 5 years of waiting? so - 2 or 3 weeks cant kill you...
mesula: The_Muh: It had better be announced in 2-3 weeks.
mesula: Otherwise, I'm going to kill a Phoronix employee.
gitano: The_Muh: heh, yeah, better announce it soon, before ppl go amok :D
christian_lappy: do it slowly:-)
d2kx: mesula: relax for a bit, it is coming
The_Muh: mesula: oO y phronix? kidnap gabe =)
christian_lappy: better plan that is
mesula: The_Muh: Who's Gabe?
The_Muh: "gimme linux-client then i give gabe back"
d2kx: mesula: srsly?
The_Muh: mesula: the boss of valve
gitano: mesula: u dunno Gabe?
mesula: Oh, the CEO of Valve?
mesula: Isn't that blackmail?
gitano: aye
gitano: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg
gitano: the guys on the right
mesula: That's immoral.
mesula: Blackmail is /never/ right.
gitano: mesula: to keep u occupied: do some interpretation for us, regarding that pic ;D
mesula: Killing people who lie to you and forcing fat people to exercise is morally sound, though.
ChemBro: and if the blackmailer is a penguin?
mesula: WTF why do they have all that Apple hardware?
The_Muh: lets make a company and call it "pipe"...
The_Muh: with the slogan "no closed valves here!"
gitano: urm..coz' they released it for mac, 5 days ago?
NigeyUK: weeee
mesula: gitano: Oh yeah. ^^
mesula: But Macs suck.
NigeyUK: linux on mac? confirmed
d2kx: haha
mesula: NigeyUK: Linux works on Apple hardware.
NigeyUK: www.steamonlinux.com
gitano: mesula: no they don't :p they're just overpriced, heh
NigeyUK: i know :p
mesula: gitano: Overpriced, and that's why they suck.
NigeyUK: seeing as osx is mainly bsd thats not surprising lol
gitano: well, if u can afford them, they dt suck anymore :p
NigeyUK: they suck
NigeyUK: overpriced, underspecd
mesula: The default OS is pretty shitty, too.
gitano: anyways
gitano: :p
gitano: useless discussion
mastertheknife: something messed up here
NigeyUK: uhoh
mesula: I want my damn Steam for Linux already!
NigeyUK: what ya broke? lol
mastertheknife: I used to get 20-30 fps in L4D through wine, but now its 2-3 fps, nothing changed
gitano: will never get the hatred between linux and mac users
mastertheknife: I cant see anything, i press console and type disconnect
mesula: I hate this stupid escalating rumour based on nothing solid.
NigeyUK: oh hell dude, thats mega broke lol
NigeyUK: rumor?
NigeyUK: are u thick and blind ?
mastertheknife: mesula: there is a client
NigeyUK: or just in denial?
mesula: mastertheknife: Which may not be finished and released.
mesula: mastertheknife: It's not solid evidence that Steam is coming.
mesula: mastertheknife: Valve could just be experimenting.
NigeyUK: its being updated almost every day
RambJoe: valve even say alfred reynolds maintains the linux game ports
NigeyUK: confirmed by valve to the daily telegraph
d2kx: <3 #phoronix
RambJoe: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg on the left
mesula: There's a lot of evidence, but I don't want to get my hopes up; Valve could just be fucking with us.
NigeyUK: and............ the entire source engine, AND catalog is being ported to linux as stated by alfreds job description
mesula: RambJoe: I don't see Linux in that photograph.
RambJoe: why would they make a client and not release it though
RambJoe: penguin
mesula: RambJoe: UT3?
christian_lappy: RambJoe: simply techi testing ?
RambJoe: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html
christian_lappy: RambJoe: proof of concpet client ?
NigeyUK: fucking with us would be bad for valve, if they werent doing it theyd have nipped this in the bud by now and removed the client files
RambJoe: ctrl f alfred raynolds there
gitano: d2kx: rly? :D
RambJoe: He also does his best to maintain the Linux ports of our games
The_Muh: so many hints...
mesula: RambJoe: The penguin is just one of the guys' toys.
gitano: has been watching the discussion going in circles here now for days now :p
d2kx: if it wasnt happening they would post on the forums right now and say "no guys sorry but we dont have plans". they did that in the past but dont do it anymore since it became obvious it is happening
RambJoe: look at that link i send
RambJoe: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html
The_Muh: mesula: only a toy? at valve? no...
mesula: Sorry, my IRC client crashed.
RambJoe: "He also does his best to maintain the Linux ports of our games. "
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: seems to work fine, at least in multiplayer now.. but dx9 through wine is so painful
mesula: I bet Valve are just fucking with us being they're so sadistic.
RambJoe: http://store.steampowered.com/public/client/steam_client_linux thats the client
NigeyUK: eugh i dread to imagine wine with no dx9 dude, that must be hellish
mesula: RambJoe: Which Linux ports of games?
RambJoe: it says on here: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html
mesula: Okay, so there's a hell of a lot of evidence that Steam for Linux is coming.
RambJoe: look at what is says for "Alfred Reynolds"
mesula: RambJoe: Which games have Linux ports?
somename: it will come
mesula: RambJoe: I read it.
NigeyUK: valve have already said the entire valve catalog will be ported to opengl, tf2 hl2 etc etc plus all future src games
RambJoe: oh, well we dunno yet
mesula: AFAIK, Valve have no Linux ports of games.
mesula: NigeyUK: Including Crysis?
RambJoe: not released
NigeyUK: crysis isnt a src game
NigeyUK: thats cryengine
gitano: mhm, googling alfred reynold shows a writer, a composer and a rear admiral as first 3 results
s_20: mesula: the dedicated servers
RambJoe: it says he's maintaining the ports which will hopefully be here soon :P
gitano: what does that tell? :p
d2kx: crytek recently said they're thinking about porting crysis to mac
RambJoe: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html that page says about all the employes
RambJoe: Alfred Reynolds Software Developer Alfred joined Valve as a software engineer in 2002. Since his arrival, he has contributed to the development of Counter-Strike, Half-Life 2, and Steam. He also does his best to maintain the Linux ports of our games. Most recently, he lead the Steam development efforts to bring third party applications to the leading online distribution platform. Prior to his arrival at Valve A
NigeyUK: id take what crytek say with a huge pinch of salt, remember the fiasco with the linux server for far cry ?
rsk: maintain linux ports of games could be the server versions.
mesula: I want an official announcement now.
RambJoe: could
mesula: Yeah, they could just be server versions!
mesula: We might end up with Steam servers for Linux.
The_Muh: rsk: then valve would wrote "our linux dedicated servers"
NigeyUK: mesula, we all do, but right now the mac client has the limelight
mesula: The_Muh: Unless they like to fuck with Linux users by misleading them and getting their hopes up.
s_20: mesula: yes, as a copmany that makes a whole lot of sense
The_Muh: mesula: and your confirmation for this info?
s_20: i'm sure they have a whole "fucking aroudn with potential customers" department
mesula: s_20: Doesn't Microsoft do it?
The_Muh: why valve should kidding us`
NigeyUK: pmsl s_20
RambJoe: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg but it looks like he works on the actual games
mesula: It's all just a rumour, nobody has official confirmation.
The_Muh: wasting of money and time - just for kidding?
The_Muh: dont believe it
s_20: The_Muh: my point exactly.
mesula: The_Muh: Valve is full of some very sick, twisted and sadistic individuals.
RambJoe: yeah why would they do all this work on a linux client and not release it
gitano: "Alfred Reynolds was born 7 September 1853 in Hampton, Virginia, the son of Major General Joseph Jones Reynolds, United States Army, and Mary E. (Bainbridge) Reynolds. He married Louise S. Norton, 28 April 1880. He married again to Sarah Josephine LeCand, 4 October 1921. He made his home in Gulfsport, Mississippi. He died in the United States Naval Hospital, Washington, D.C., 9 September 1937."
gitano: *flood*
gitano: :p
mesula: Maybe Valve and Phoronix have a deal: Valve creates speculation of a Linux client, Phoronix blogs it and gets increased page views, and Phoronix pays Valve for it?
The_Muh: mesula: calculate with 10€/h/employee... 2 employees working on this "joke" 20 hours... makes 400€ for a joke
somename: phoronix pays the valve linux devs :p
rsk: lol 10euro an hour?
rsk: more like 50/100
mesula: Ubuntu and Steam would be pure win.
somename: *arch
NigeyUK: maybe we should all settle now and just wait and see what happens? :)
The_Muh: rsk: just easy to calc =)
mesula: I hope Steam games will be minimisable so that I can switch from the game to Pidgin IM client, Firefox or my music player and back.
gitano: UBNUTU IS FAIL GIVE US DEM STEAM ON FREEBSD!111!!
The_Muh: i expect the valve-developer earns more money
NigeyUK: lol
mesula: BSD is for gayboys.
NigeyUK: moving on..
gitano: :p
mesula: Linux is where it's at.
The_Muh: i like the logo of freebsd
NigeyUK: who has seen the uingine tesselations tech demos ?
gitano: will certainly move on to bsd, once all de steam n00bs go linux *g*
ChemBro: i want steam for haiku os
NigeyUK: lol gitano
mesula: gitano: But then you won't have Steam games.
d2kx: In Soviet Russia, Steam games YOU
The_Muh: gitano: move to gnu/hurd
gitano: will continue quadrupel booting, then :p
somename: in soviet russia, everyone is like chuck norris
mesula: I singleboot Ubuntu.
gitano: das ubuntu boot
gitano: it will sink, in the end :p
Azalyn: to the people saying they are just messing with us, or testing... you don't know what you are talking about. :|
mesula: Azalyn: Oh really/
mesula: Linux won't ever be a gaming platform.
Azalyn: the current evidence is pretty compelling, there is no way in hell they are paying developers to work on this just to "test" or fool around. first of all, what exactly would they be testing anyways?
gitano: mesula: why are u anticipating steam so much then?
mesula: Azalyn: Linux servers.
mesula: gitano: Because I want it·
mesula: I want it almost as much as I want a 13 year old girlfriend.
The_Muh: oO
christian_lappy: *sick*
d2kx: join the catholic church then
NigeyUK: lol
Azalyn: we have a graphical steam client already.
gitano: :p
Azalyn: that is not for 'servers'
mesula: I forgot to mention: I'm a teenager.
mesula: Azalyn: We do?
mesula: Azalyn: Show me.
gitano: would've never expected, heh
Azalyn: someone linked it to you earlier.
christian_lappy: mesula: doesnt make it less *sick* when you arent 12
christian_lappy: s/when/if/
Azalyn: actually they linked to the manifest. but the binaries were already leaked.
christian_lappy: there is only one thing i do not understand in all that rumors
Azalyn: anyone have a link to the binaries?
christian_lappy: guys, people complain about no bein able to use steam on case sensitive mac
christian_lappy: but thats needed for linux
mesula: christian_lappy: What's case sensitive Mac?
christian_lappy: if the really want to release for linux why then deploy for mac with case insenstiveness ?????
christian_lappy: mesula: case sensitive file system
d2kx: christian_lappy: thats the default behaviour for macs though and they will probably implement support for case sensitive fs later
Azalyn: christian_lappy: that may be one of many reasons why the linux version isn't out yet.
Azalyn: because they haven't polished all the issues out yet.
gitano: christian_lappy: true that
mesula: WTF Macs aren't case sensitive?!?!?
gitano: d2kx: true too
Azalyn: we actually discussed this the other day.
christian_lappy: mesula: no, they arent
gitano: Azalyn: ya, this discussion revolves :p
d2kx: we actually discussed all of this for weeks
mesula: Macs suck.
NigeyUK: shower timeeeeeeeeeee
NigeyUK: bbs
NigeyUK: smells
christian_lappy: iihhh
gitano: have fun NigeyUK
Azalyn: macs have the 'option' to format the filesystem as case insensitive or case sensitive.
somename: mac is the worst gaming platform imho
Azalyn: from what i understand.
mesula: Linux is the best gaming platform.
mesula: I want games for Linux already.
gitano: somename: macs, probably, hacks not, though :p
Azalyn: the only reason it'd be a problem is because they probably have case sensitive filenames, but their games will request the filename in a different case..
The_Muh: lol.. i read "i want gabe for linux already" xD
Azalyn: so the file might be "Blah.tga"
Azalyn: and the game engine requests "blah.tga"
christian_lappy: using mixed names for files i dumb
The_Muh: Azalyn: write a script making the upper-case to lower-caser
Azalyn: they'd have to change every instance in the game engine to request the proper names.
Azalyn: The_Muh: yeah. but it's possible that they decided to solve it another way.
mesula: Surely they can write an auto-porting script to fix that?
The_Muh: cp
Azalyn: because even if that solution works for source engine games..
Azalyn: what about all the third party games?
s_20: 15:45:18 < mesula> Linux is the best gaming platform.
Azalyn: presumably, valve wants to have third-party companies porting their games too
mesula: Azalyn: Acquire the source code and run the script, then recompile?
s_20: now that's a very bold statement
Azalyn: so they're probably trying to create a platform that anyone can use
mesula: s_20: Linux has music players and IM clients to enhance gaming.
mesula: And web browsers.
Azalyn: that is probably also why the mac port is using a d3d->ogl translation layer. heh
Azalyn: that layer may be part of the steam sdk
giselher: AFAIK: steam uses a `tolower` call, symlinking all files to files with all lower case filenames would solve that issue
s_20: yah well
Azalyn: maybe third parties will be able to use it too...
Azalyn: for 'easy porting'
s_20: that doesn't make a whole lot of sense
mesula: s_20: Linux is stable and won't BSOD ingame.
mastertheknife: giselher: that was patched in vgui2
mesula: A Linux port of Steam would enable Steam to run on 300 times more OSes than it currently does.
s_20: mesula: i do prefer linux for a variety of reasons but it being a stable environment for gaming certainly isn't one
giselher: mastertheknife: but not in the OS X client
Azalyn: giselher: yeah... except that the game engine may not be consistent.. maybe sometimes it requests the file in uppercase..
mastertheknife: Fixing case sensitivity issues is very simple
mesula: Debian, SUSE, Fedora, Ubuntu, etc
Azalyn: game development isn't exactly always clean and consistent
Azalyn: they could've made many errors in capitalization.
s_20: as far as games are concerned windows in most cases just works
mesula: Does Steam auto-update games?
RambJoe: yes
Azalyn: the only 'universal' and fool-proof fix, would be to create a small virtual filesystem of some sort, in a library. it would be designed to resolve a filename regardless of case.
rsk: it would be awesome it it didnt
rsk: if
Azalyn: so the game engine would link against *that*
rsk: download the right version of the latest patch etc
Azalyn: and then it would be able to get the filename no matter the case.
mesula: s_20: Unless the game is shit and tries to save options and checkpoints to /usr
Azalyn: you would just have to make sure that you don't have two identical filenames with the same case. :)
Azalyn: err, with different case
Azalyn: writing/testing such a library might be why the linux version isn't out yet.
somename: 6t99
Azalyn: among other issues.
somename: -6t99
s_20: mesula: those are petty problems, buggy WMs, bad soudn support (which of the 2 dozens of soudn framework should we use this time? and will it work in 2 years from now?) and even just how compositing can affect performance.. those are real problems
mesula: s_20: Pulseaudio
mesula: s_20: Doesn't Windows use compositing?
s_20: yah. right. or openal. or sdl. or phonon. or should we directly talk to alsa or oss? who knows.
Azalyn: the problem with just using a script, is that developers are not accustomed to developing on case sensitive filesystems, so they will probably continue to make mistakes. and then with every update, something might break again because someone forgot to rerun the script to change the case or whatever.
s_20: or jack, the list goes on and on
s_20: mesula: yes, windows does
mastertheknife: It could be nice if alsa could work without the need for configuration file
Azalyn: apparently they have openal or something.
mastertheknife: like Xorg
s_20: and you can just play games without having to disabling it first
mesula: Isn't Windows case insensitive? That's bad for gaming, right?
somename: alsa and configuration files?
mesula: Doesn't Windows BSOD ingame? That's bad for gaming, right?
s_20: linux as a gaming platform simply isn't that stable yet
somename: huh... i just installed alsa and added it to the modules in arch
somename: no config files
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: no idea what you mean with alsa config files
mastertheknife: Oh, in gentoo i have /etc/modprobe.d/alsa.conf
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: the only thing i did is unmute the main chan after installing
somename: poor gentoo
Ivanovic: and yeah, this is in gentoo
Ivanovic: there is no more required
s_20: mesula: windows stopped BSODing regularly a long time ago and you do ahve to explain to me how case insentivity is affecting your gaming experience
Azalyn: linux is fine as a gaming platform.
mesula: Yeah, fuck you haters.
Azalyn: you are basically saying that more choice is a bad thing.
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: have you ever had a look into /etc/conf.d/alsasound?
s_20: "haters"?
mesula: More choice=good thing
s_20: mesula: you obviously don't develop software
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: yeah but what about it
mesula: Ivanovic: No such file on my system.
Azalyn: mac is worse in this respect, after all, apple's opengl implementation is missing some crucial extension apparently, which is why they can't support cards older than geforce 8xxx
Azalyn: and, performance is bad.
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: those are all gentoo specific settings for the start/stop demon
The_Muh: steam looks strange in tiling
Azalyn: and according to what was on the forums, the latency isn't the d3d->ogl layer, but rather it's the mac's very own opengl driver.
The_Muh: cause the windows arent reziseable
Azalyn: linux's opengl is comparable to windows performance. and all the extensions are there.
Azalyn: that's because both nvidia and ati use the same codebase for the 3D functionality as they use in windows.
Azalyn: this doesn't appear to be true at all for the mac however.
Azalyn: they have their own driver, and it's slow.
Azalyn: not to mention that microkernel designs will always incur a performance penalty.
Azalyn: the mac is actually far *less* suited to be a gaming platform than linux.
Azalyn: people think otherwise because the mac is "shiny"
mastertheknife: Yeah, newest OpenGL implemention in Mac is 2.1
mastertheknife: While Linux and Windows already have 4.0 fully implemented
Azalyn: "hey, the mac is shiny..... and games are ALSO shiny! that must mean that the mac would be good at gaming!"
somename: like windows. people say its good because of the (RAM-eating) design
somename: otherwise its shit
mastertheknife: My gentoo also eats ram
mastertheknife: i must double my ram
somename: Aero eats too much
Azalyn: linux's flexibility actually makes it very ideal for games. you could use it in any situation. in theory you could make an embedded console with it... you could use it on an arcade board... no matter what kind of hardware you have, it will work. and you can strip it down and remove unnecessary things for raw performance.
GNU\colossus: I'd like my RAM to be used rather than just idly sitting by, thanks very much.
mastertheknife: My gentoo is 64bit and since switching to KDE4, ram is usually 30-40% utilized with nothing running (2GB ram)
Azalyn: if you wanted to make a "universal" platform for arcade, console, pc, embedded, etc...
Azalyn: then there is no better platform out there than linux.
mesula: We should get Xbox 720s, PS4s and Wii2s to run Linux and then games will run on any system. :D
Azalyn: to use as a starting point.
rsk: we should
rsk: yea
rsk: but no
RambJoe: ps3 could run linux
rsk: that won't happen
mastertheknife: ps3 ran linux
mesula: RambJoe: Not any more.
mastertheknife: not anymore it seems
RambJoe: they're getting sued for taking it out i think
rsk: RambJoe well the linux it could run was not suited for games.
RambJoe: yeah it has different architecture anyway?
Azalyn: it couldn't access the rsx.
Azalyn: it ran in a hypervisor
RambJoe: xbox will never run linux, it doesn't even have opengl
Azalyn: which did not give it access to the rsx and other crucial components.
RambJoe: i hate microsfot
Azalyn: hopefully it gets hacked and then we can do homebrew.
rsk: even if it gets hacked
Ivanovic: RambJoe: ehm, the OS that is run on the xbox does not have opengl
Azalyn: the original xbox ran linux. hehe
rsk: no one would make games worth of the PS3
somename: i heard microsofts servers ran linux once
Ivanovic: that is: if you had linux on the xbox you directly would have opengl via a software rasterizer
somename: that would be epic fail
s_20: RambJoe: what are you talking? it's not like the hardware has "directx" or "opengl" support as such
s_20: the APIs are merely exposing wahtever the hardware is capable of
Ivanovic: and since the graphics core is rather similar to existing ati cards it is likely that you would get some opengl with the open source driver
RambJoe: yeah but the xbox software doesn't
RambJoe: all games are directx
Azalyn: the xbox360 has some kind of ati chip in it.
RambJoe: so all the shitty console ports on pc have directx :(
mesula: DirectX is proprietary and aiding Microsoft's monopoly.
Ivanovic: RambJoe: like i said, the default OS does not offer any opengl
Ivanovic: it does only support a directx look alike
Azalyn: given that we have documentation for the desktop chips now, it probably wouldn't be impossible to figure out the xbox360 chip.
somename: directx is the only thing that keeps them up
mastertheknife: Microsoft hates OpenGL, they would remove it from Windows if they could
mesula: OpenGL is the future.
mastertheknife: it's competiting with their junk that is supposed to keep people developing for windows
Azalyn: if the xbox360 sdk allows bare-metal hardware access... (game can talk directly to the gpu, without going through directx)
Gnurdux: right
mastertheknife: (blindly)
RambJoe: we must prove that opengl>directx
Azalyn: then in theory you can write an opengl library for it
Azalyn: and provide it as middleware or something
Gnurdux: presumably they made directx so that people would stop making cross-platform hardwre
mastertheknife: They made DirectX to keep people using windows
mastertheknife: monopoly
Azalyn: which they never succeeded at doing...
mastertheknife: like with everything microsoft does
somename: thats the point of directx. not supporting other OSes
Azalyn: but they did succeed in making people stop making cross-platform games.
Gnurdux: i meant software though
Gnurdux: lol
Gnurdux: just woke up
th0br0: RambJoe: http://www.free60.org/Main_Page the 360 does run linux
somename: sadly windows 7 was overhyped... they earned much money with it
somename: unlike vista
RambJoe: :)
Azalyn: XP is still more popular though.
th0br0: Well, the average person doesn't need all that graphic stuff I'd say.
mastertheknife: I bet when XP support ends in 2014, many will consider linux
RambJoe: why do they make you have a dx11 card for tesselation
somename: yeah. and it only supports directX until version 9
RambJoe: opengl has had that for years?
mastertheknife: but for linux to be attractive, it needs to have steam and many 1-2 other games
somename: opengl is better for xp
th0br0: correct RambJoe
RambJoe: money scam?
th0br0: But it's just that most devs only know DX.
Azalyn: dude... what the hell, i thought it was impossible to run homebrew on the 360.
Azalyn: i thought the cpu would simply not run unsigned code.
Azalyn: under any circumstance
somename: many users also only know windows. they think that microsoft invented everything
th0br0: Well, you need to do soldering and some little JTAG hack IIRC
Azalyn: which makes it possible to run pirated games of course, since the games *are* signed...
Azalyn: but homebrew would be impossible since you could never sign your code.
somename: microsoft does everything to give others no chance
giselher: somename: many people doesn't even think anything
somename: some of them do
giselher: btw; why does michaellarabel write articles on his page but doesn't show up in the channel any more
th0br0: d
michaellarabel: I show up, I am still here.
mastertheknife: oo
mastertheknife: :)
mastertheknife: michaellarabel: when you think valve will make an announcement?
mastertheknife: i'm losing my sanity
michaellarabel: I am hoping very soon as in the coming weeks. Something should have been said already, unless they were hearing the wrath of Apple.
Azalyn: june 9.
Azalyn: if we are to believe the conspiracy theories regarding the photo with the valve devs.
Azalyn: heh
mastertheknife: I doubt June 9, its just a shirt and it doesnt seem custom made
Azalyn: i know, i'm just joking around.
mastertheknife: I hope much earlier
sado1: http://kootenaymac.blogspot.com/2009/10/apple-computer-official-t-shirt-june-9.html
NigeyUK|: rararar
sado1: I knew I've seen it somewhere lol
mastertheknife: michaellarabel: I hope all the bugs and issues in the mac version won't make them re-think about adding another platform, or delaying linux for a while
Azalyn: even if it's not custom-made though, maybe they chose the date because of the shirt, to tease us.
Azalyn: heh
th0br0: are there many bugs, mastertheknife?
Azalyn: about as many bugs as the windows version had at launch.
Azalyn: heh
th0br0: Mind that right now, they don't even have VAC.
th0br0: Now I'm wondering whether the OSX release has got VAC
mastertheknife: th0br0: many are already fixed but there are still few, not much, but the complaining from the mac users make it seem like there is a lot of work
Azalyn: of course, the big problem seems to be on apple's side.
th0br0: Well, apple sucks after all...
Azalyn: since their opengl driver sucks.
th0br0: Their whole system is rather bug-ridden ;)
NigeyUK|: dam this volcano is kicking off again
NigeyUK|: uk airspace closed again
th0br0: Yeah, they had an increase in tremors starting uh yesterday i think.
mastertheknife: th0br0: There are also many mac users complaining that the steam UI doesn't follow Apple's guidelines and as a result, doesnt look like an OSX application
NigeyUK|: lets hope it doesnt set Katla off aswell
th0br0: mastertheknife: I find that fucking hilarious.l
NigeyUK|: their seismically linked :(
Azalyn: it's really stupid because i bet the usual mac-kiddies are blaming valve even though it's apple's opengl driver that sucks.
th0br0: NigeyUK|: yep. I'd like to see it erupt but then again, I wouldn't ;)
Azalyn: but of course, an apple fan will never admit that apple is to blame.
NigeyUK|: katla runs like clockwork, around every time this 1 goes off, it sets katla off, and thatd put us all in europe in a very serious situation
th0br0: NigeyUK|: it doesn't have to be katla though... "The three other volcanoes cited by Thordarson as being potentially close to a large eruption are Grimsvotn, Hekla and Askja — all of which are bigger than Eyjafjallajokull."
Azalyn: they cannot *possibly* expect valve to comply with the UI "guidelines"
Azalyn: i mean come on.
Azalyn: you'd have to be a moron to expect that.
mastertheknife: they want it to look like an OSX application.. white background, etc
NigeyUK|: true dude, but katla seems totally linked to this 1, same magma pool
Azalyn: it's a multiplatform app. so it's gonna look the same on all platforms.
th0br0: NigeyUK|: http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/woalert_read.php?cid=26065
mastertheknife: Yeah, at least for now, valve is too busy at the moment to care about different UI for each platform
th0br0: NigeyUK|: i know. it'll be fun times ahead of us.
NigeyUK|: oh yes
Azalyn: they shouldn't surrender to the mac kids' demands.
NigeyUK|: and who knows when yellowstones gonna blow, that's like 30'000 years overdue
Azalyn: steam doesn't match the windows UI *either*
Azalyn: no matter which of the default themes you use.
mastertheknife: yeah
mastertheknife: mac kids delaying linux client
NigeyUK|: mactards!!!!!
NigeyUK|: CONFIRMED!
d2kx: apple probably really put pressure on valve to shut the fuck up for the moment about linux
NigeyUK|: nah gabe would tell em to fk off
Rednaxela: I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Mac people who complain about not-matching-UI, would also complain about how in game HUDs don't fit the Mac UI guidelines
Rednaxela: haha
th0br0: d2kx: i don't think they'd have anything in hand they could use to exert such pressure
s_20: mastertheknife: be grateful they're creating that mac client, otherwise who knows how long it would've taken them to make a native linux client.. if they'd ever bothered with it
d2kx: apple will talk about steam in early june on their developers conference no doubt and it wouldnt be so cool if linux was confirmed until then
sannn: has there been an update on the linux steam client since the osx release?
th0br0: i think there was one update to the binaries
th0br0: but no news
mastertheknife: s_20: I doubt they would go through all the hassle of porting the client, the game engine, porting all games to newest game engine, all that just for the Mac alone? Linux's desktop market share is around 1.6% but mac's market share is around 5-6%, but less than half of that can play games because most macs come with intel graphics, etc
NigeyUK|: sannn, there were 2 since the mac release
NigeyUK|: both non binary updates
s_20: mastertheknife: think of all the casual games and such
s_20: there's loads of those in steam
s_20: they'd run beautifully even on crappy intel GPUs
s_20: steam doesn't equal source engine
mastertheknife: Intel GPUs only support OpenGL 1.2
sannn: mastertheknife: I'm sure they're mostly interessted in porting steam to osx to be the first crossplatform digital distribution system. This will make steam much more intressting for developpers to support
mastertheknife: not many games are coded for that nowdays
mastertheknife: You also forget that Linux's market share is currently low, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a potential to grow
sannn: s_20: my point exactly!
mastertheknife: I believe they were coding for both platforms
mastertheknife: but around March, have decided to do Mac first
mastertheknife: because it seems the linux client's development halted on march
sannn: think of studio's like popcap.. their kind of games really matches the general osx audience and do not require any advanced hardware
d2kx: :D
somename: why mac first? higher market share?
NigeyUK|: may i remind everyone that avatar was made on linux clusters running ubuntu? :p
s_20: sannn: amen.
d2kx: kubuntu
mastertheknife: Mac first also because of case sensitivity issues in the client and engine
Rednaxela: mastertheknife, (Small detail, but apparently 1.4 OpenGL for intel GPUs)
s_20: somename: bigger market share and it's an easier target platform
mastertheknife: Rednaxela: depends on the model but yeah
sannn: and creates bigger attention / hype than linux support
Azalyn: i don't believe that mac has larger marketshare.
Azalyn: there are no accurate ways to measure it.
somename: same
Azalyn: for linux that is.
NigeyUK|: agreed
Tallken: about OS X UI guidelines, I bet sooner or later Apple will start annoying Valve to comply with them... Just not now, since they don't to anger them probably
mastertheknife: Linux is a platform with much more potential for gaming
DonScott: yeah
Rednaxela: mastertheknife, Well, according to the wikipedia table, at least 1.4 in any of the reasonably modern one, and some of the very newest actually have 2.0 and 2.1
NigeyUK|: theres no proper stats to say how many macs / linux users dual boot
s_20: Tallken: not necessarily
Azalyn: apple cannot force valve to do anything
s_20: adobe doesn't honour all the guidlines either iirc
mastertheknife: Linux is a platform with much more potential for gaming, its cheap, you can change hardware easily, better drivers and OpenGL support, etc. No doubt in few years there will be more Linux steam players than Mac steam players
Azalyn: apple has nothing to do with valve here. i wouldn't be surprised if apple wasn't even told.
Azalyn: valve could have done this independently
mastertheknife: Rednaxela: Interesting, didn't notice Intel moved on to 2.0 and 2.1
Tallken: s_20: maybe that's why Apple hates Adobe :p
somename: they should drop mac photoshop support and make a linux one
Azalyn: photoshop is one of the main killer apps for the mac that in the early days i believe was exclusive to the mac...
Azalyn: without adobe, you could say that apple would be dead today
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Yeah
Rednaxela: mastertheknife: Yeah, all of the new CPU-integrated ones for instance do 2.1
d2kx: drop mac photoshop support = mac's death
Tallken: Azalyn: I doubt that, there was a page somewhere saying Valve had been approached by Apple a few years ago but negotiations would suddenly die. I bet this time negotiations went on.
Azalyn: the reason apple survived is because they had a niche to survive in. in the professional imaging and design industry.
somename: make photoshop and steam for linux and nobody wants to use another OS :p
Azalyn: which was in part because of adobe
Tallken: the reason Apple survived was Steve Jobs
Azalyn: it is fucked up that apple is shitting all over them
Azalyn: it's true that flash is broken, but look at how google brilliantly solved the problem in chrome, without much difficulty.
Azalyn: they just basically put plugins in their own process.
Azalyn: and poof, problem solved
s_20: Azalyn: problem solved? i use chrome on linux and flash couldn't be slower
th0br0: somename: problem is that the core adobe libraries aren't capable of case-sensitive FS
s_20: it's eating up CPU like there's no tomorrow
Azalyn: plugin can crash without crashing the browser, and then the plugin just restarts
sannn: s_20: hahaha so true.. noticed the same!
mastertheknife: I can't count how many times flash crashed my Opera
Rednaxela: There was once upon a time Photoshop for Unix
Azalyn: i use chromium.
Rednaxela: but it was very ancient
Azalyn: i haven't seen any problems.
Nevtus: Azalyn: Valve have got some help from Apple with porting Steam, but they didn't pay or ask for it afaik
s_20: i do love chrome, particularly when i comapre it to firefox on linux
Azalyn: besides, i'm talking more about the crashes and buggyness
s_20: but the flash performance.. jesus
Nevtus: as in, Apple didn't pay for Steam to be ported
mastertheknife: Nevtus: we can't know that
Azalyn: but using multiprocess plugins solves the biggest problems i'd say.
Nevtus: mastertheknife: not for sure no
Tallken: my Flash behaves normally sucky, not too slow
Azalyn: mozilla is going to copy chrome in this way.
somename: firefox 4 ,uh?
Azalyn: they're doing multi-process plugins and multiprocess tabs.
s_20: sannn: i have no idea how this is even possible, some videos get the cpu temperature up to 90°c, and no, they're not HD
mastertheknife: All i want is valve to announce a linux client, then i can sit back calm knowing that in 3-5 months i will be able to play DX9 games natively (e.g. L4D) without running at 1024x768 all lowest for games that dont have -dxlevel 8X support
Azalyn: i dont know if it will be in there for v4
s_20: it's really frustrating
d2kx: flash performance on linux is a complete joke, dont get me talking about fullscreen videos
Azalyn: the work is in the fennec branch now, which is the one they're working on for mobile platforms
NigeyUK|: I recently moved from a PC to a MAC, and got the new Steam version of mac as well. the thing is i can't install or play my games in steam... it says
NigeyUK|: "This game is not available for your platform"
NigeyUK|: help please
NigeyUK|: haaaaaaaahaha fkin spacktard
Nevtus: flash performance on anything but windows is a joke
Rednaxela: Much of the issue with fullscreen flash videos in linux is that there is no hardware decoding of the video usually. Of course, non-flash things don't have help there either, but Adobe never bothered to have well optimized routines for software decoding
d2kx: NigeyUK| yeah it seems mac users are not a lot more intelligent than windows ones
NigeyUK|: pmsl
Nevtus: hardware acceleration for flash is only in the windows builds
rsk: why not just use gnash with va-api?
rsk: and let it be faster than on windows
d2kx: even 360p youtube lags in fullscreen with flash
rsk: instead of using adobes player and whine
rsk: =)
th0br0: Nevtus: it sucks on windows too
d2kx: is flash 10.1 any better btw.? tried it with nspluginwrapper on 64bit chrome and it still sucked
Rednaxela: d2kx: No, flash 10.1 isn't (noticeably) better. I'm using it.
Nevtus: Vimeo fullscreen works better than youtube for some reason
Nevtus: http://vimeo.com/hd
RambJoe: does flash 10.1 use GPU on linux
RambJoe: or just windows
d2kx: no
d2kx: windows
RambJoe: fuck adobe
d2kx: and it doesnt even work properly on windows with a lot of drivers
d2kx: catalyst 10.4a on windows + flash 10.1rc4 + hd 4850 = no acceleration, dont ask me why
somename: HTML5 needs to get the web standard
RambJoe: doesn't html5 look worse than flash
d2kx: well guys i recommend watching the google conference next week as rumours are google will talk about their VP8 plans and that could include pushing youtube html5 to use it
Nevtus: RambJoe: no
somename: google will indeed do something
RambJoe: i sear it does on screenshots i've seen
RambJoe: maybe because it was theroa
d2kx: chrome os is not too far and they dont want users to use youtube with linux flash on the intel atom netbooks, be sure
Azalyn: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7505743/Pictured-amazing-X-ray-of-Chinese-teenager-with-10-inch-knife-embedded-in-his-head.html
RambJoe: aren't google making a codec or seomthing
Azalyn: they bought a codec.
d2kx: open sourcing VP8 maybe RambJoe
Azalyn: vp8
Nevtus: RambJoe: it's an open standard that can use lots of codecs and resolutions
d2kx: VP8 kicks the shit out of H264
rsk: to bad VP8 is crap
RambJoe: will it use graphics card?
rsk: d2kx not true, where did you come up with that?
Nevtus: the graphics card people would have to support it, not the other way round
d2kx: rsk last time i checked the internetz VP8 was said to be more efficient than h264, and that was based on the codecs announcement in 2008 and who knows what google did to it over the last months
rsk: ok not true
rsk: and google hasn't changed any vp8 code yet
rsk: that anyone knows of outside of google at least
Ivanovic: rsk: they maybe have not *published* changes yet
Ivanovic: this is different from no changes
Ivanovic: ;)
rsk: maybe.
d2kx: lets not go into this as we will find out on wednesday or so anyway
rsk: VP8 will not be more efficent in a few days
rsk: i can bet on that
d2kx: werent you the one that also wanted to bet that steam isnt coming to linux
rsk: no
rsk: stop being wrong =)
d2kx: ;)
Azalyn: everything i've read about vp8 says it matches h264.
RambJoe: atleast firefox will have it
RambJoe: if its open source
d2kx: not only firefox
d2kx: internet explorer 9 will stick with h264 even though it might get replaced, internet explorer 10 in 2014 could already switch to VP8 then
NigeyUK|: hmm i thought nvidia gtx 470's supported opengl 4.0 ?
RambJoe: microsoft comes again to fuck it all up
Azalyn: what surprises me is that microsoft isn't even going to support WMV
Azalyn: their *own* format
Azalyn: i mean they fought really damn hard to get WMV included in the blu-ray/hd-dvd standards as VC-1
Azalyn: and now for web video they're not even trying to push their own standard.
DonScott: maybe they hate themselves now
Nevtus: Microsoft is emo now
Azalyn: maybe they realize it's futile to fight the MPEG-LA?
RambJoe: microsoft make the shittiest descisions
RambJoe: just look at Windows mobile 7
Azalyn: if even microsoft is afraid of the mpeg-la, then wow.
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: all nvidia 4XX series supports OpenGL 4.0
NigeyUK|: - OpenGL 3.1 Support
NigeyUK|: - PhysX Enabled
NigeyUK|: weird
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: only until the next round of renaming happens
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: thats from the nvidia page? i noticed that too, its simply outdated i believe
Ivanovic: and they start to label some more g92b chips eg as gt430 or something like this
Ivanovic: ;)
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: heh
NigeyUK|: yeah.. was gonna say all "fermi" cards were opengl 4 .. lol
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: yeah, all fermi are capable of full opengl 4.0
NigeyUK|: sweet :D
NigeyUK|: might get this to slap ubuntu on ..
NigeyUK|: Patriot PS-100 32GB 2.5" SATA-II Solid State Hard Drive
jumbers: 32GB? :|
mastertheknife: Corsair memory is so hard and expensive to find
NigeyUK|: for os only itll be fine
Nevtus: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1271355 | despite the messy way this poster writes, I have thought the same about that gap to the left of those buttons
mastertheknife: Anyone knows DDR2-800 that is rated for 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V?
NigeyUK|: mastertheknife, i think any of the geil stuff is rated at that
Nevtus: | and I looks almost the same in terminus font :S
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: Ah, i have 2GB of Corsair rated for 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V and i want to double my ram to 4GB, but that corsair model is nowhere to be found here anymore. I'll look into geil
NigeyUK|: ah found some corsair xms2 ?
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: I bought it when i built this computer in 2007
jumbers: Nevtus: Clever observation
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: TWIN2X2048-6400C4
NigeyUK|: Corsair 2GB DDR2 XMS2 DHX PC2-6400C4DHX TwinX (2x1GB)
NigeyUK|: 800MHz RAM Speed, CAS 4-4-4-12 Timings, 1.9-2.3v VDIMM, Lifetime Warranty with Corsair.
NigeyUK|: Average rating of 5.0
GNU\colossus: "overclocker" RAM is just asking for trouble.
GNU\colossus: and possible performance gains are negligible anyway
NigeyUK|: i generally have no probs with ram, except my board likes to set the voltage to 1.8 so its upped to 2.1
d2kx: yeah you wont notice faster RAM latency etc
DonScott: i had some overclocking ram and it failed within 3 months
NigeyUK|: :o
DonScott: never used it again
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: thats because default DDR3 voltage is 1.8v
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: I have mine upped to 2.1V also manually, and timings set to 4-4-4-12 also manually
NigeyUK|: ahhh
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: mine's rated for 5-5-5-18 at 1.8V and 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V
mastertheknife: NigeyUK|: anyway thanks nigey it seems the DHX is a new version of what i got and can do 4-4-4-12 at 2.1V, awesome
NigeyUK|: not sure what mine is now, changed it for ocz sli stuff
NigeyUK|: Latency Timings CL4 ( 4-4-4-15 )
mastertheknife: there is no way to see current timings with linux as far as i know
mastertheknife: just Windows, using CPU-Z or Everest
NigeyUK|: bah thats gay :(
mastertheknife: Its not too bad if you dual boot
GNU\colossus: it doesnÄt matter in actuality, anyay.
mastertheknife: GNU\colossus: But if you paid more for lower latency memory such as 4-4-4-12, why not make sure its running its that?
GNU\colossus: mastertheknife: well, the mistake is to pay more for that kind of memory in the first place ;)
mastertheknife: GNU\colossus: and every little performance gain helps in Wine
GNU\colossus: I wouldn't ever buy DIMM that doesn't conform to JEDEC.
mastertheknife: GNU\colossus: Its JEDEC though, DDR2-1066 isn't
GNU\colossus: 2.1V isn't exactly the spec for DDR3-SDRAM
mastertheknife: I'm using DDR2-800
RambJoe: can't you see the timings in memtest?
GNU\colossus: non-standard voltage for DIMM is even worse anyway
GNU\colossus: RambJoe: for certain chipsets or CPUs, yes
mastertheknife: DDR2's standard voltage is 1.8V, and DDR3's is 1.5V, but its like those DDR-400 days
d2kx: btw the Steam Play Indie Pack is #6 top seller on Steam this week
mastertheknife: when DDR-400 just came out, people advised not to get it because its unstable, but that was because all DDR-400 chips back then needed slightly above standard voltage to be stable
mastertheknife: "According to JEDEC[1] the maximum recommended voltage is 1.9 volts and should be considered the absolute maximum when memory stability is an issue (such as in servers or other mission critical devices). In addition, JEDEC states that memory modules must withstand up to 2.3 volts before incurring permanent damage (although they may not actually function correctly at that level)." from DDR2 wiki
mastertheknife: GNU\colossus: though, for the price of low latency 4GB i could probably get cheap 8GB
c0bra: news on linux steam client since friday?
DonScott: nope
c0bra: whats all the updates then?
d2kx: steamclient.so which is not important to the gui
c0bra: hm
NigeyUK|: meh i gotta remove pulseaudio again :(
NigeyUK|: quake 4 icon
th0br0: pulseaudio sucks anyway.
DonScott: well it does need work
NigeyUK|: it works fine, just not in games
Azalyn: pulseaudio is one of the most annoying things ever.
Azalyn: it causes more problems.
Azalyn: it's a solution looking for a problem.
Azalyn: i never had problems with just using alsa.
Azalyn: people who need low latency can use jack
DonScott: how come ubuntu pushes pulse audio though ?
Azalyn: because somehow everyone has gotten it into their head that pulseaudio is "the future"
Azalyn: ubuntu does a lot of stupid things.
Rednaxela: sighs
Azalyn: look at the recent change where they moved the titlebar buttons to the left.
Rednaxela: Why doesn't everyone just use plain vanilla ALSA...
Azalyn: the decisions for doing that basically amounts to "apple does it. they must know what they're doing! ... let's do it too!"
DonScott: yeah....i still don't like the lefty buttons
Rednaxela: Hardware mixing is common these days, and even then it isn't there it's trivial to enable software mixing in ALSA... so I don't see why to have a sound server...
Azalyn: i personally thing that apple was dead wrong here.
Azalyn: people say that "oh but your mouse spends a lot of time on the left, so it's convenient"
Azalyn: it is *exactly* because your mouse spends time on the left that you *shouldnt* have those titlebar buttons there, because you don't want to hit them by mistake
Azalyn: window management, and application control are two *distinct* tasks, that should be separate.
Azalyn: people already accidentally hit the 'close' button enough as it is.
Azalyn: you could *maybe* make an argument for minimize/maximize being on the left.
Azalyn: but the close button should never be anywhere but on the right.
Megagun: Should be bottom left on Windows.. ;)
DonScott: lol
Rednaxela: I think the 'close' button should require middle click to avoid accidents, hah
Azalyn: that's going too far.
Rednaxela: That's also a joke :)
Azalyn: too far just for stupidity. :P
Azalyn: i know.
Azalyn: but just in case anyone else seriously considers it.
th0br0: Azalyn: ack :)
Megagun: application control should be done by voice. :)
d2kx: "nuke this stupid piece of fuck" > sudo apt-get remove flashplugin-installer
d2kx: voice recognition is fun but does it work reliable?
DonScott: i moved the windows buttons back to the right
somename: yeah. they suck on the left side
DonScott: i'm not to sure i want to mess with pulse audio though.
wait4steam: Hi all. One question. Will the oss radeon driver ever be as fast or faster as the fglrx driver?
Ivanovic: wait4steam: for 3d stuff: no, it won't
wait4steam: Does anyone know?
Ivanovic: simply because this requires *lots* of optimisation
Ivanovic: for this you first require people with enough knowledge and time to work on it
wait4steam: and that is so much work that they can't do it?
Ivanovic: and yeah, manpower is what limits the oss drivers most
Ivanovic: yes, getting a highly optimized driver is a shitload of work
Ivanovic: making things work reasonably is about 20 to 30% of the work
wait4steam: Too bad but thx for info
Ivanovic: the optimizations of things to make them be as fast as humanly possible would require several times the amount of work of a "working" driver
gGey_kun: anyone can help me about free radeon driver and my ati sapphire hd 4850 ?
gGey_kun: (srry for my english i'm french)
Ivanovic: gGey_kun: there is no way to help you
wait4steam: isn't it developed by red hat?
Ivanovic: (unless you ask a question)
gGey_kun: Ivanovic: ok lol
gGey_kun: i have a sapphire hd 4850 with free radeon driver on a fedora 13 beta
Ivanovic: wait4steam: and how many people does redhat have work on it?
gGey_kun: but my ventilator turn with very high speed
wait4steam: Where do I have to donate for better/faster drivers?
Ivanovic: wait4steam: the driver team at ati which is basically just there for optimizing the stuff in the proprietary driver has >10 people IIRC
Ivanovic: gGey_kun: you need a really recent kernel to get powersaving support
gGey_kun: i have a 2.6.33 kernel
Ivanovic: without powersaving the card gets rather hot which will make the fan spin up
gGey_kun: Ivanovic: does the 2.6.34 kernel is needed ?
Ivanovic: gGey_kun: if you are using kms you need a .34 kernel (better would be radeon-testing branch) and load the radeon module with dynpm=1
wait4steam: Write again plz. Couldn't read it. Can't scroll down this page on mobile Device
gGey_kun: Ivanovic: ok i'll testing with a .34 kernel because with a .33 the fan spin up less
gGey_kun: Ivanovic: but it's too high
wait4steam: Ivanovic?
Ivanovic: wait4steam: you should learn driver development yourself and help with it
AsciiWolf: hello
mastertheknife: hi AsciiWolf
Gnurdux: Ivanovic, g92b? You *hope* it's g92b. You realize some GTS 250s are still 65nm>
Ivanovic: Gnurdux: right, they often do some really bad renaming
Ivanovic: and i do dislike this behaviour
Gnurdux: it probably should be illegal
Ivanovic: (one of the reasons that do for speak against buying nvidia)
Gnurdux: to me the reason not to buy nvidia is that the products are simply inferior at almost every price point
Gnurdux: the shitty thing is that ATI doesn't even officially support the 5000 series on laptops yet for Linux
Ivanovic: the most important reason against nvidia for me is that they do not support the open source driver development *at all*
Gnurdux: and i am probably buying a laptop
Ivanovic: no specs, no devs working on things, ...
Gnurdux: ehh
Gnurdux: i don't care
Gnurdux: the open source drivers will never be competitive anyway
Gnurdux: if you don't want to run games, just use Intel
Gnurdux: they have an open source driver
kloplop321: sucky
Gnurdux: if you do, then open source isn't good enough
Gnurdux: and most likely never will be
Ivanovic: they are good enough for basic games
Ivanovic: and watching videos and all that stuff
rsk: good enough for fullscreen youtube?
Ivanovic: rsk: i do fullscreen youtube via youtube-dl and watching the video file in kaffeine
rsk: that's not youtube
Ivanovic: since flash sucks!
rsk: that's offline flv playing
Ivanovic: rsk: you can start watching while it is still loading
Ivanovic: ;)
rsk: so?
Ivanovic: for me downloading the video is a lot more compftable
Ivanovic: and like i said, flash sucks
Ivanovic: yeah, no matter if it is the complete website in flash (ugh, this sucks badly!) or some embedded flash stuff in the website
rsk: well work sucks
rsk: so you shouldn't be doing work in linux?
Ivanovic: if you want video, just do it by offering a download or using the "video" tag from html5
rsk: kinda weird argument
Ivanovic: the problem with this is that there is no real standard
Ivanovic: ah, "work" is somehow different
Ivanovic: simply because of "you want to life", "you have to life from something", "to get something, you have to work"
Ivanovic: there is no suck chain regarding flash
Ivanovic: ;)
NigeyUK|: brb
joris_: NigeyUK: hey wassup^^
NigeyUK: boo
NigeyUK: trying to fix my grub splash screen but its having none of it :(
DeathCrawler: ;<
NigeyUK: wont put the monitor in 1440 x 900
joris_: that wouldn't happen on windows
joris_: lol
NigeyUK: lol i dont have windows installed :|
NigeyUK: gf uses a mac G5, my laptop and desktop use ubuntu 10.04
Ivanovic: NigeyUK: what exactly do you mean with "grub splash screen"?
Ivanovic: that is: you won't get much from grub anyway, or you would require having some kms already running then, which is not possible
NigeyUK: the bootsplash
NigeyUK: after enabling the nvidia drivers the nice screen goes all big and weird, theres a way to get the proper screen res to fix it but its not working
Ivanovic: you mean this screen is not displayed correctly for you? http://www.kde-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/56843-1.jpg
NigeyUK: no, the loading screen on ubuntu
Ivanovic: no idea how ubuntu really does work
NigeyUK: plymouth as its called
Ivanovic: but i'd assume that you won't get the "nice" screen before you got some xorg or the likes running
NigeyUK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=boot.png
NigeyUK: oh ya do, but nvidia driver install breaks something
NigeyUK: slaps it in 640x480 res or sommit daft
NigeyUK: no big deal though, it only shows for like 6 seconds anyway..lol
ChemBro: NigeyUK: it doesn't break something, it simply doesn't support kms
maligor: NigeyUK, it uses KMS
ChemBro: no kms = ugly bootscreen
NigeyUK: oh how gay.. nm .. i can live with it
maligor: plymouth is hardly a reason to use kms
christian_lappy: buchi
babai: pass a vga=791(or something suitable to ur screen) as a kernel boot option
thelinx: Just wondering, is the ATI HD 5770 Linux "certified"?
thelinx: It did get a good rating, but does the drivers bog it down?
Ivanovic: thelinx: the card should work nicely with fglrx
Ivanovic: so if you can run fglrx (as in your xorg-server and kernel are not too new) you should be fine
thelinx: So the official drivers are no good?
christian_lappy: Ivanovic: how is wine support nowadays ?
Ivanovic: christian_lappy: no idea, i don't use wine
christian_lappy: Ivanovic: ahh
Ivanovic: (i prefer drinking it)
Ivanovic: ;)
maligor: never got around to testing, but shouldn't fglrx work on Xserver 1.8 also
Ivanovic: maligor: IIRC someone posted in the archlinux forums a patch to make the 10.4 driver work with xorg-server 1.8
Ivanovic: from the rumors i heard "official" 2.6.34 and xorg-server 1.8 support will come with the 10.4 driver
maligor: you mean 10.5?
Ivanovic: no, i mean 10.6
Ivanovic: sorry
Ivanovic: or was this "just" good 2d accell in fglrx, not sure
Clouse: Anyone know where I can get a step by step guide to installing the Gallium3D driver working at the highest frame rate currently possible on my Radon Mobility X1600?
DeathCrawler: w8in June 9
DeathCrawler: :>
DonScott: what's june 9 ?
mastertheknife: they think its the announcement because its what it says on the shirt
DeathCrawler: yep
DonScott: for steam on linux ?
DeathCrawler: 2 penguins and date
DonScott: ahhh
DonScott: would be cool
DeathCrawler: :>
DonScott: valve is mean like that
DonScott: but it's cool
DonScott: kinda like a conspiracy theory only it actually comes true
DeathCrawler: DonScott: Larabel said the steam was in june and that date appears on the shirt of Alfred
DonScott: ould be
DonScott: *could
DeathCrawler: hopefully
neorazorx: they have lot of work to do ...
asraniel: mastertheknife: what t-shirt?
DeathCrawler: asraniel: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/mac/MacSteam_AlfredJasonGabe.jpg
DonScott: well they don't have to release it.....they would just have to announce it for it to be true
asraniel: DeathCrawler: what date?
asraniel: lol, i'm probably blind ;)
DeathCrawler: ...
asraniel: oh!
asraniel: lol
asraniel: no.....
DonScott: it's the guy on the macs T-Shirt in the middle
asraniel: they wouldn't print a t-shirt for that??
asraniel: DonScott: jeah saw it..
asraniel: lets check what the standard icon for that it
DonScott: maybe they did....you never know with valve
DeathCrawler: asraniel: Two penguins in the pic
DeathCrawler: see?
DonScott: they're crazy
DonScott: but not stupid
Flyser_: two? I see one
mastertheknife: as far as i know
mastertheknife: they were supposed to announce it already
mastertheknife: something got delayed
DonScott: there is two penguins
DonScott: one of them is a red spy
asraniel: woww!!!!!
asraniel: hehe
asraniel: i just checked with google
somename: damn mac users.. they delay the linux release
asraniel: the standard calendar icon you can see everywhere has a 9
asraniel: BUT
Flyser_: mastertheknife: source?
asraniel: it's always Tuesday
asraniel: http://www.mobilfunk-talk.de/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/iPhone-3G.jpg
asraniel: not june
DeathCrawler: Flyser_: http://omploader.org/vNGMzag
Flyser_: DeathCrawler: what is that?
Flyser_: I still dont see the second penguin. where is it?
DeathCrawler: 2nd penguin :P
DeathCrawler: you are blind
DeathCrawler: :PPP
Gnurdux: when did Larabel say June?
Gnurdux: last i saw he just said soon
DeathCrawler: "However, from seeing these actual files to the other proof and the information from sources, I am 100% confident that the Steam client / Source engine are coming to Linux. If my information is correct, an official announcement regarding this Linux support may be here by this June."
ChemBro: soon, june, sounds similiar
DonScott: one penguin is by the coffee cup the other one is next to the mac mini
DeathCrawler: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODE3Mw
CyberKitsune: ./steam.sh: line 63: 3933 Segmentation fault ${DEBUGGER} "${STEAMROOT}"/${PLATFORM}/${STEAMEXE} $@
CyberKitsune: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
CyberKitsune: Latest Steam Update breaks post-login period
Flyser_: DonScott: thanks
Flyser_: CyberKitsune: known problem.
asraniel: CyberKitsune: new update?
Gnurdux: when was that from?
CyberKitsune: asraniel, yes. yesterday the client updated
CyberKitsune: and even with patched libs it broke
DeathCrawler: hehe, the work continues
DeathCrawler: i want torchlight
DeathCrawler: :>
Megagun: http://mooses.nl/temp/l4d2hack.png
Megagun: STEAM ON LINUX CONFIRMED
DonScott: heh
somename: nethack huh?
Megagun: Wait, what's that about the shirt text?
The_Muh: the chrome-logo looks like a part of glados
DonScott: it say June 9 on it and now everyone thinks that's when they are gonna announce steam on linux
Megagun: Oh. Sure. :P
asraniel: Megagun: well one clue there is
CyberKitsune: The_Muh, Google is Aperture Science Confirmed.
asraniel: Megagun: check google for the standard iphone calendar icon
Megagun: hmm
asraniel: Megagun: just search iphone and look at the picture search of google
Megagun: Hmm, so what's that icon on the right? Looks like some kind of Map application or something
Megagun: I think it's just some kind of free shirt given away at a convention
Megagun: Clock - Calendar - Map?
Megagun: Leftmost icon on the shirt is definitively a clock
Ivanovic: yeah, this looks like some plain free shirt
Megagun: Yeah, it is maps
Megagun: http://www.mobilfunk-talk.de/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/iPhone-3G.jpg
DonScott: I think everyone is reading too much into the picture.....but that's valve own fault.
Megagun: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/2571869604_001ae04a6a_o.jpg
Megagun: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3023/2563086531_f277203101.jpg
Megagun: google images for "Worldwide Developers Conference shirt"
Megagun: It's the 2008 shirt
DonScott: yeh
Megagun: If they really wanted to drop a June 9 hint in there, they should really have made their own shirt. ;)
asraniel: :(
RambJoe1: :'(
RambJoe1: disgregard that, hes still the man apparently porting the linux games
DonScott: yeah but he's gonna be busy with the Mac for a little while
RambJoe1: aww hell naww
DonScott: i'll honestly be surprised if steam for linux gets released as working before next year =/
RambJoe1: they said coming months to telegraph
DonScott: thats the only one though.....
Gnurdux: DonScott, what about the penguin
DonScott: so it looks suspicious
ChemBro: in real time or valve time?
Megagun: There's also one that claimed Runic Games confirmed it to them
Megagun: Runic Games from Torchlight
RambJoe1: let me check the valve time wiki
RambJoe1: In the coming weeks In large updates starting in five months and continuing over the next two years
mastertheknife: Valve is trying to make us lose our sanity
mastertheknife: they should announce already
RambJoe1: but this is months not weeks so i say about 8 years
asraniel: as long as they have stuff to fix for the osx release they won't annouce anything i think
Azalyn: i wouldn't be surprised if the linux version worked better..
DonScott: it probably would.
RambJoe1: do games run better on osx or linux
Azalyn: the case-sensitive issue and other minor roadblocks might be the problem right now with the linux version.
DonScott: mac has hardware lock in
RambJoe1: um what was the distros in the first file found again
DonScott: linux doesn't
Azalyn: RambJoe1: historically, games in linux have often run the same as windows.
Azalyn: as long as they are native of course.
RambJoe1: hmm
RambJoe1: old games wont be native
RambJoe1: lets hope new ones are
Azalyn: the really old ones already run nearly flawlessly in wine.
RambJoe1: not on mine :'(
Azalyn: ati card?
RambJoe1: yes
RambJoe1: :(
DonScott: I think valve just doesn't want to be locked in to Direct X only
Azalyn: ati is the future, since they've opened up hardware documentation. but right *now*, it leaves a bit to be desired...
skyhirider: I hope they dump DX altogether
RambJoe1: they said windows games will stay directx
RambJoe1: but i dunno about future ones
RambJoe1: only problem: Xbox 360
CyberKitsune: lolxbox
Azalyn: on mac they are using a D3D->OpenGL translation layer... :\
The_Muh: RambJoe1: thas not our problem =)
RambJoe1: why dont they just ditch that shit lol
Azalyn: i'm hoping that the translation layer is just temporary or something.
Azalyn: and that they are working on a real opengl port behind the scenes or whatever.
Azalyn: but that it isn't ready yet.
skyhirider: wish they would make a new source engine that is opengl only
Azalyn: you wouldn't have to make a whole new engine...
Azalyn: just rewrite the renderer
skyhirider: yes, but they can name it as a new engine, good for marketing
The_Muh: only the "view" part
skyhirider: + they cant just ditch dx on their existing games
Ivanovic: skyhirider: whould not make sense
mastertheknife: they aren't working on a real opengl port for now
Ivanovic: skyhirider: simply because they also port to the xbox
Ivanovic: and for that one you need directx
Azalyn: the engine already runs on linux, without the renderer. when you think about it.
mastertheknife: they are improving the translation layer
skyhirider: ahh, true
Azalyn: that's what the linux dedicated server *is* after all.
mastertheknife: they are too busy at the moment porting games and such
Azalyn: it's a source engine without a renderer.
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Without input and sound too
mastertheknife: Azalyn: but yeah you have a point
RambJoe1: how much do valve make from xbox?
mastertheknife: probably not as much as they make from PCs
RambJoe1: i'm guessing l4d is the most popular game
mastertheknife: You know
mastertheknife: they can take their time and all
mastertheknife: no problem with that
mastertheknife: but please valve, announce it already
mastertheknife: The curiousity can kill
DeathCrawler: :<
mastertheknife: especially when you see so many people that say there is no client etc
RambJoe: valve must hate microsoft though, they don't even let them give out free updates
skyhirider: Gotta love vendor lock-in
mastertheknife: RambJoe: what do you mean?
RambJoe: on xbox you can only give out 1 free update or something
RambJoe: then after that you have to pay for all DLC that is given out, thats why most dlc costs money
skyhirider: there was a blog post about microsoft not letting them update the game - each game has a limited space for updates
skyhirider: so they could not put out updates to tf2 etc..
Azalyn: input and sound i would think is relatively easy to add.
Azalyn: but the renderer... whoo boy.
Azalyn: big job.
Azalyn: they could be working on a real opengl renderer behind the scenes, and it's just not ready yet... and they are using the d3d->ogl layer now in the interim to get the job done...
Azalyn: or, they plan to use the layer indefinitely...
Azalyn: :\
Azalyn: in theory though, if they optimize and improve the layer enough, then it's possible there wont be a real performance penalty.
DonScott: not a huge one anyway
Azalyn: also, if they see a bottleneck somewhere, they can rewrite the d3d code in their d3d renderer to 'map' more easily to the opengl translation library.
RambJoe: doesn't portal one bad on mac
RambJoe: run*
Azalyn: which is another important point.
Azalyn: RambJoe: yeah, but that is the initial attempt
Azalyn: wine's d3d layer started out bad, but it has gotten steadily better.
DonScott: portal running bad on mac is more because of hardware lock in I think.
RambJoe: hmm all source games are proably going to be directx ports
Azalyn: more importantly since this is a supported solution, they can debug the layer themselves and optimize their game on purpose to work with the layer. something that wine can't do.
Azalyn: and even furthermore, if their layer is based on GLSL... then that is a more low-level access method than D3D.
RambJoe: could they make games in opengl then make them run on the xbox?
s_20: where does it say they're just using a wrapper and not native ogl? somewhere in that valve dev wiki?
Azalyn: and HLSL->GLSL map pretty easily from what i've been told.
Azalyn: RambJoe: sure. by doing the opposite. making an opengl->direct3d translation layer. :)
RambJoe: will it lose performance then
RambJoe: ah well who cares about xbox
Gnurdux: wait do we even have evidence that they are converting directx to ogl?
Azalyn: yes.
Gnurdux: what is it?
Azalyn: it was confirmed on the forums by the developer who wrote the layer.
Gnurdux: i read that forum post
Gnurdux: it was not remotely clear what he was saying
Gnurdux: i.e. whether he made a module compatible with the direct3d module vs made an implementation of direct3d calls
RambJoe: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1267720
Azalyn: it was.. :|
Azalyn: "I wrote the native OpenGL module for Source Mac. It presents a DX9 compatible interface to the engine, engine calls me, I call GL, dots appear."
Azalyn: what is unclear about that?
Azalyn: it's perfectly clear.
RambJoe: he totally ignored my post about linux :(
Azalyn: RambJoe: that is just more evidence to me. i mean they would be denying it at this point.
Azalyn: if it indeed wasn't true
RambJoe: yeah taht's what i was thinking
RambJoe: didn't they say they couldn't comment when phornix asked
RambJoe: they usually would say "we have no plans"
Gnurdux: Azalyn, it's not clear at all to me
RambJoe: what are ati drivers like on the newer cards btw?
Gnurdux: dx9 compatible could mean that it's compatible with a dx9 module
Azalyn: the guy is speaking english.
RambJoe: i might have to get one soon, i was going to but they didn't bring the price down
Azalyn: what module?
Azalyn: he's saying it presents a DX interface *to* the engine.
Azalyn: present means that it's a library that features a dx9 interface, pretty much exactly what wine does.
Azalyn: WineD3D is a module that 'presents' a DirectX interface to the applications that use DirectX.
s_20: on a wholly different level though, they can fine tune things while the applications wined3d deals with are entirely oblivious of the wrapper
Azalyn: or D3D rather.
RambJoe: how hard is it to make games that support like opengl3.3 AND opengl4 for poeple who have it
Azalyn: that's the only thing he got wrong.
Azalyn: like many, he confused D3D with DX
Azalyn: RambJoe: not too hard.
RambJoe: :)
RambJoe: looking at valve games though i doubt they'll optimize it for an API most can't support :(
Azalyn: opengl4 just means that they took a bunch of extensions and wrapped them into a release. it's more of a label.
Azalyn: OpenGL was designed with extensibility from the start
maligor: no, it's not just
Azalyn: so they can evolve it forever and never break it.
RambJoe: :)
maligor: opengl4 modified the pipeline
Azalyn: i'm simplifying.
RambJoe: i thnk they should use opengl on windows too
Azalyn: even in opengl4 the old way of doing things is still available..
Azalyn: RambJoe: well, both nvidia and ati support opengl in their drivers on windows
Azalyn: intel too i believe.
Azalyn: [16:10:39] on a wholly different level though, they can fine tune things while the applications wined3d deals with are entirely oblivious of the wrapper
Azalyn: yeah, i mentioned that earlier.
Azalyn: that's definitely one benefit of a supported solution.
Azalyn: that they can optimize their engine to talk to the wrapper, and perhaps even eliminate any/all overhead.
s_20: my point exactly
Azalyn: if they do it right, then we'll still get some solid linux games.
s_20: so a wrapper can't be really seen as such a big problem really
Azalyn: yes but it would be nice if they sent a message to the industry. by switching to opengl.
Azalyn: maybe that's asking too much... but honestly, valve started out on opengl, with their first game(s)...
Azalyn: it's such a shame that now they've given in to the peer-pressure.
s_20: Azalyn: that would kinda make their xbox port a bitch though
Azalyn: maybe they chose d3d because it's cheaper to hire d3d programmers, since there's more people out there that know it..
Azalyn: but now that they're big, they should be able to afford switching.
Azalyn: s_20: not necessarily, they could do the very opposite then. make an opengl->direct3d layer. heh.. what goes around comes around, right? :)
Azalyn: it seems ridiculous to have your company's decisions influenced by one platform alone.
RambJoe: microsoft are crafty, it is now clear why xbox has no opengl :(
s_20: i reckon that they're not all too keen to experiment with such a major technology change
Azalyn: perhaps not. but whatever.
Azalyn: i guess their idea is they can keep hiring el-cheapo devs while being able to be multiplatform at the same time.
s_20: when it comes down to it, the source engine is the life blood of the company, so i don't see any major changes happening
Azalyn: maybe they'll even make their wrapper a stand-alone middleware solution...
Azalyn: yeah, but the source engine isn't as popular right now for middleware. this generation it seems that the unreal engine has won the day.
RambJoe: epic suck now
DonScott: they've sucked for awhile
DonScott: where have you been
RambJoe: lol
RambJoe: ut99 is their best game
Azalyn: i think ut2003 and ut2004 were ok.
Azalyn: it's really ut3 where they have gotten fucked up.
Azalyn: ut3 was practically just a tech demo for their engine... :\
RambJoe: why did they go all dark and over gory and over techie in the games :S
Azalyn: the game itself isn't that bad... i mean i played it, and it was fun.. some of the new modes were nice.
Azalyn: but their menu system sucks.. and the engine isn't as configurable
Azalyn: they totally fucked it
RambJoe: i dont like the graphics direction
RambJoe: yeah ut99 had one of the best menus
RambJoe: also i hate l4d2 menu
Azalyn: i liked ut2004's menus
Azalyn: ut99 had like a built-in windowing system
Azalyn: heh, was odd.
RambJoe: lol
RambJoe: i liked it
Azalyn: the source engine honestly has been the most impressive in terms of it's menu system
Azalyn: it also has windowing, but i like how they do it
Azalyn: with the transparency and so on
RambJoe: except l4d2
RambJoe: was that made for consoles :S
Azalyn: i haven't played l4d or l4d2 yet..
Azalyn: i bought l4d though i believe.
Azalyn: during one of those specials.
RambJoe: oh
RambJoe: it has a console menu
Azalyn: my gaming box has been out of commission ever since my kvm went haywire.
Azalyn: i've been meaning to rma it.
Azalyn: but i've been lazy
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Yeah UT99's built in windowing system was kind of ugly
mastertheknife: I have L4D too but i cant play it.. well barely
mastertheknife: its locked to directx9 (-dxlevel 80/81 doesnt work on L4D) so its very slow through wine
DonScott: it's playable
DonScott: just not as good
RambJoe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIb-u4gg4u8
RambJoe: thats it jyst differnt background
mastertheknife: DonScott: I play at 1024x768 all lowest, i now get 30-40 fps on average but it freezes sometimes
mastertheknife: DonScott: I will get more RAM in the next few days it might perform better
DonScott: i play it on 1440 x 900
mastertheknife: DonScott: what video card?
DonScott: 8800 gt
mastertheknife: DonScott: I have 8800GT aswell
mastertheknife: DonScott: Hmm.. what wine version, and any patches to wine?
RambJoe: oh shit i forgot about e3
RambJoe: june 15-17
mastertheknife: DonScott: or any changes to the game?
DonScott: how do i find out the version
DonScott: is a noob
mastertheknife: wine --version
mastertheknife: wine-1.1.44
mastertheknife: here
DonScott: wine 1.1.44
DonScott: for me
mastertheknife: what processor do you have?
jumbers: My next beep composition will be: Super Mario Bros. Theme
DonScott: umm
mastertheknife: Its weird, i get like 5-10 fps at 1680x1050
mastertheknife: even less
DonScott: i know it's intel
jumbers: DonScott: cat /proc/cpuinfo
jumbers: pastebin
DonScott: Core 2 Duo E6850 @ 3.00GHZ
mastertheknife: oh, not too different from mine
mastertheknife: What annoys me is not the fps, but the jerkiness
Ivanovic: DonScott: try /sysinfo
mastertheknife: its very unsmooth
Ivanovic: Sysinfo for 'rechner1': Linux 2.6.34-rc7 running KDE Development Platform 4.4.3 (KDE 4.4.3), CPU: Intel(R) Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 @ 2.50GHz at 2000 MHz (4999 bogomips), HD: 233/1162GB, RAM: 3868/3962MB, 172 proc's, 7.56h up
DonScott: i got 4 gigs of ram
DonScott: i don't have sysinfo
mastertheknife: I have 2GB which ill upgrade to 4GB soon but it doesnt seem to be at fault, i closed everything except irssi, steam and l4d, free reports 1GB unused by applications
Ivanovic: IIRC at least konversation does implement it and i think xchat had it, too
mastertheknife: maybe its the multicore rendering
DonScott: yeah
mastertheknife: DonScott: you have the same problem ?
DonScott: what ?\
mastertheknife: DonScott: it just feels little laggy
mastertheknife: its not smooth
DonScott: yeah
DonScott: same prob
mastertheknife: oh
DonScott: it's playable but not as smooth
mastertheknife: must be this wine version
mastertheknife: yeah
mastertheknife: its very annoying though
DonScott: yeah i know
DonScott: tf2 is the same
DonScott: I hope what valve does works a lot better
mastertheknife: me too
DonScott: although the sound isn't delayed like in ET:QW
DonScott: stupid pulse audio
Gnurdux: i hope valve MAKES A FUCKING ANNOUNCEMENT
Gnurdux: quality of the port is secondary to existencde
wait4steam: why is gaming on my maschine so slow? i own a i7 820 4 gb ram ati radeon mobility 4670
wait4steam: is it all the crappy ati driver?
wait4steam: portal in wine runs not better than on my old core duo 1.6 with 1gb ram and an nvidia geforce go 7600
wait4steam: any idea?
Azalyn: an i7 with a 'radeon mobility' ? :|
Azalyn: i7 is a desktop chip..
wait4steam: yes
Azalyn: and radeon mobility is a laptop chip
wait4steam: why should i7 be a desktop chip?
wait4steam: i have an i7 820 in my laptop
wait4steam: Intel® Core™ i7 Prozessor 820QM (1.73Ghz, 8MB cache)
wait4steam: any ide why games run so slow?
mastertheknife: wait4steam: add -dxlevel 80
wait4steam: i'll try
wait4steam: thx
mastertheknife: wait4steam: directx9 through wine is painfully slow
mastertheknife: or you can try -dxlevel 81 might work even better
mastertheknife: Gnurdux: Me too.. i'm losing my mind :P
mesula: Is Steam released yet?
Gnurdux: its pretty good timing too, since im probably going to get a new laptop this week or os
mesula: Gnurdux: Are you referring to the announcement of Steam?
Gnurdux: ye
Gnurdux: s
Gnurdux: for Linux
mesula: Gnurdux: Same because I need to replace my 5 year old desktop before I go to university. :)
mesula: I hope Steam is announced before I buy my next PC so that I know I don't need Windows.
Gnurdux: mesula, that is pretty much precisely my situation
Gnurdux: desktop: 5 years old
Gnurdux: heading off to college next year
mesula: Gnurdux: Wow it's amazing how we're so similar.
mesula: Going to college/university, 5 year old desktop PC, getting a new one, and looking forward to Steam.
mesula: Gnurdux: What are you studying at university?
Gnurdux: computer science and math, most likely
mesula: Gnurdux: Economics here.
wait4steam: runs much better
mesula: Why is it that everyone on Freenode studies CS?
wait4steam: thx
Gnurdux: lol
Gnurdux: it makes sense to me
Gnurdux: people who like ocmputers are probably likely to like CS
mesula: Gnurdux: Which university?
Gnurdux: MIT
mesula: Gnurdux: I guess we can't be flatmates, then. :(
Gnurdux: heh
mesula: I'm going to Swansea.
Gnurdux: ah, you are from Wales?
mesula: Gnurdux: We could have played Linux games together.
mesula: Gnurdux: Na, England.
mesula: I'm going to another country to study. :)
wait4steam: thx mastertheknife maybe you can help with the other problem too. i patched wine to login to bnet but sc2 crashes when i launch a game
wait4steam: i can log in to bnet
wait4steam: but when starting a map it ctd
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: What are you talking about?
mastertheknife: wait4steam: no idea i dont have experience with battle.net
mastertheknife: or sc2
wait4steam: about playing starcraft 2 with wine
mastertheknife: try searching in the wine appdb
wait4steam: i did
wait4steam: i patched wine as mentioned
wait4steam: but it crashes
wait4steam: :/
wait4steam: but thx anyway :D
wait4steam: at least i can üplay portal with playable frames now ^^
mastertheknife: LOL this looks just like our steam: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1271784
giveMeSteam: mastertheknife: HAHAHAHA
wait4steam: maybe he is running linux steam with cywin oin windows ^^
mastertheknife: i should follow that thread
mastertheknife: in case he finds a fix or something
giveMeSteam: That Windows XP/Vista desktop is so ugly.
giveMeSteam: Gnurdux: When do you think there's going to be an official announcement? And when are you getting a new PC?
RambJoe: i hpoe they announce at e3
Gnurdux: i'm getting a new computer probably this week, and i don't really know if or when there will be an official announcement. michaellarabel is probably the right person to ask
RambJoe: only thing im not liking is portal is annoucned for pc / mac
Kano: michaellarabel: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=e40152ee1e1c7a63f4777791863215e3faa37a86
jrgp: what's that commit for Kano ?
Kano: 2.6.34 final
giveMeSteam: My PC has had shit diskio since 2.6.32
giveMeSteam: So I use Karmic's kernel instead of Lucid's.
mastertheknife: I'm still on 2.6.31-gentoo-r6
giveMeSteam: It's really annoying how new kernel versions break things.
mastertheknife: Hm i usually don't have a problem with that, but changing kernel so often in gentoo can be annoying
mastertheknife: so i went from 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 to 2.6.31-gentoo-r6, next will probably be 2.6.34
SimmyD: not this guy again
SimmyD: woops
SimmyD: hey all :)
mastertheknife: hey
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: Sorry, am I bothering you?
SimmyD: hahah
SimmyD: giveMeSteam: you never would :P
SimmyD: my window was scrolled up and all i could see was the mountainjew logging in and out
SimmyD: and thought it was doing it right now again
mastertheknife: SimmyD: LOL mountainjew. that was few days ago
SimmyD: haha :P
mastertheknife: was so annoying though yeah
SimmyD: so sorry to ask but any news on the steam front? i have been in comps all weekend
SimmyD: sure was haha
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: Still no announcement. :(
giveMeSteam: I WANT it.
giveMeSteam: I haven't bought a PC game for years.
SimmyD: i would have never of guessed ;)
giveMeSteam: But when Steam is released, I will probably start buying lots of games.
Kano: michaellarabel: http://lkml.org/lkml/2010/5/16/89
SimmyD: same here ;)
giveMeSteam: I have to pirate games ATM because I don't know whether I'll be able to get them working well on Linux.
SimmyD: i actually have taken centos off my computer/server and stuck fedora 13 on it to ready myself ;)
giveMeSteam: I don't want to spend £20 and then find out I can't run the damn thing.
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: That's a bit of a rash decision; Steam might never come for Linux.
giveMeSteam: I'll cream my pants the moment Steam is announced.
SimmyD: meh i live in hope
SimmyD: the fact we had it running to some degree shows its got a very good chance
Ivanovic: giveMeSteam: honestly i prefer waiting for the released binary
Ivanovic: giveMeSteam: IIRC ut3 for linux was announced...
Ivanovic: ;)
giveMeSteam: Ivanovic: I can't believe I bought UT3. :(
SimmyD: same here lol
giveMeSteam: I bought UT3 at the same time as ET:QW
mastertheknife: UT3 for linux lol
mastertheknife: what a joke
giveMeSteam: What a fucking lie.
giveMeSteam: I sent them letterbombs.
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: There's a lot of evidence to suggest Steam is coming, but no concrete announcements. :(
giveMeSteam: I don't want to play games on Apple and Microsoft's shitty OSes.
giveMeSteam: I want to play games on the super amazing Ubuntu.
giveMeSteam: Dual booting is such a hassle.
SimmyD: giveMeSteam: you had me till the ubuntu bit
SimmyD: ;)
DeathCrawler: [MEM] 296/3962 MB [SWAP] 0/990 MB
DeathCrawler: Ubuntu+penBox
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: Well, it'll run on Fedora if it runs on Ubuntu.
DeathCrawler: *Open
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: I'm sure that Steam for Linux will run on any distro.
SimmyD: lol i know it will
SimmyD: just the super amazing was over the top lol
SimmyD: >_<
giveMeSteam: SimmyD: Ubuntu has made some big design innovations.
wait4steam: ubuntu brought me to linux after i failed with suse 8.0
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: btw regarding kde4 memory usage:
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: I used to use OpenSUSE9
Ivanovic: over here i got some 1gb used while compiling the .34 kernel with 4 threads
Ivanovic: that is kde4.3 on gentoo amd64 with firefox, thunderbird, kopete, konversation and whatnot else running
wait4steam: the ppas are so grwat couse i hate compiling stuff
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: OMG same!!!
giveMeSteam: I love PPAs
wait4steam: compiling wine today takes so long for example
wait4steam: buut i had to
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: Wine PPA?
wait4steam: normally i look for ppas first
wait4steam: i needed a patched wine
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: I have 2GB ram, its ok for KDE4+64bit but leaves not much space for gaming, so ill be upgrading to 4GB in few days :)
Ivanovic: mastertheknife: honestly it does leave quite some space
giveMeSteam: mastertheknife: I game with 1GB?
giveMeSteam: DDR
wait4steam: but search for ppas isn't easy. its hard to find them via google
giveMeSteam: I want CoD4 on my Linux PC.
Ivanovic: anyway, time to head off to bed
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas
giveMeSteam: Ivanovic: Goodnight.
wait4steam: ahh nice
mastertheknife: Ivanovic: Yeah im not saying its not possible to play, its just, the more ram the better, i love disk cache :)
wait4steam: hm,, no libmobiledevice ppa :/
giveMeSteam: I hate swap, it uses precious io resources. More RAM definitely is better to avoid using swap.
mastertheknife: I currently have 177 MB swapped
giveMeSteam: 290.5MB here
mastertheknife: how long the system is running?
giveMeSteam: Damn Midori is using 165.3MB and Rhythmbox is using 139.6MB resident memory.
giveMeSteam: mastertheknife: A day.
mastertheknife: giveMeSteam: oh, few hours here
wait4steam: my rythmbox uses just 47,6 mb ram and i have all music in flac format
wait4steam: how big is your rhytmbox database
wait4steam: ?
giveMeSteam: wait4steam: 464.3GB
giveMeSteam: About half is FLAC.
wait4steam: ok, thats huge
wait4steam: there the ram goes :D
giveMeSteam: My next PC will have at least 2GB of RAM.
giveMeSteam: 1GB isn't enough nowadays.
giveMeSteam: I like to listen to music whilst gaming whilst surfing the web whilst talking on IM.
giveMeSteam: Whilst checking my mail, downloading torrents, and getting RSS stuff.
mastertheknife: Then you should go for 4GB, the more the better :)
giveMeSteam: Whilst tagging my music and installing more games.
mastertheknife: there are many people with 8GB already, i think that is overkill for now
giveMeSteam: mastertheknife: I'm not sure if I'll get a laptop or a desktop next. I might get a laptop if Steam for Linux is released.
giveMeSteam: mastertheknife: Yeah, 8GB is a bit overkill IMO.
giveMeSteam: 4GB seems to be a smart choice ATM
giveMeSteam: Didn't Bill Gates say we'd never need more than 1MB or something?
mastertheknife: more than 640k
Daekdroom: 640Kb
giveMeSteam: What an idiot.
giveMeSteam: A single program uses 200 times that amount.
Daekdroom: I find it far usual to use "never" to mean something that is unlikely today.
Daekdroom: i.e. he might have said it thinking that nobody would need more than 640kb back then, at all.
giveMeSteam: Nobody will ever travel to Mars.
giveMeSteam: Daekdroom: Yeah, I see what you mean.
wait4steam: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Misattributed
wait4steam: does anyone here use twitter. i don't get this whole web 2.0 stuff. i am kind of a consumer not a stuff producer :D
giveMeSteam: Bill Gates has an ugly wife that looks like a man.
Daekdroom: wait4steam, twitter isn't useful at all unless you need to create hype about something.
wait4steam: so i missed nothing important :D
jelso: Google Steamium OS on Linux confirmed
wait4steam: internet on linux confirmed O_O
mastertheknife: valve.. sigh
anders: linux confirmed
mastertheknife: announce it already
giveMeSteam: Fucking announce it already, Valve!!!
The_Muh: they should!
Gnurdux: blargh
Gnurdux: if we were correct yesterday, they have a good reason not to
giveMeSteam: I'll let you fuck my MILF of a mother if you announce it tonight.
Gnurdux: grrr
Gnurdux: see what we need
giveMeSteam: Gnurdux: Why?
Gnurdux: is some organization
Gnurdux: that signs a legally binding document
Gnurdux: that we WILL purchase suchinsuch games on Steam
giveMeSteam: Gnurdux: Shall we go and protest outside their headquarters?
Gnurdux: if it is released for Linux by a certain date
giveMeSteam: Gnurdux: The Humble Indie Bundle shows people will pay.
RambJoe: would the id pack be on steam linux if linux gets steam
Gnurdux: and we won't buy anything on steam until some other date
Gnurdux: if not
Gnurdux: and then get thousands of signatures
mastertheknife: Why not pay valve to make the client
mastertheknife: lol
mastertheknife: like with the humble indie bundle
RambJoe: we need to get signitures on the petition we already have
RambJoe: we have less than 300
redeeman: because all your bantering is undignified to hell
RambJoe: oh well 467 now
redeeman: no way im gonna sign any petition for steam to linux
mastertheknife: if there was something like the humble indie bundle
mastertheknife: but the money goes to valve instead for making a linux client
mastertheknife: hmm
mastertheknife: could $100,000 be enough to make valve make a linux client
redeeman: lol but that's insane
redeeman: you don't pay a company to make a distribution platform available
RambJoe: well they're already making it
redeeman: you pay people for actual content
redeeman: atleast as a consumer
RambJoe: so im sure they'd take the money
redeeman: RambJoe: until they publicly tell you they're making it, you cant know
RambJoe: well it is on their servers :P
Azalyn: 100,000 is anywhere from one to two programmer salaries for a year. :|
Azalyn: depending on how high-profile they are.
mastertheknife: RambJoe: Well it seems the development on the linux client came to a halt on march.
RambJoe: hasn't it been updated?
Azalyn: so uh.. if they're paying one or two people to work on the client, then i suppose it'd be enough.. if they can get it done in a year that is.
wait4steam: saw3 on tv
mastertheknife: On may all files were recompiled, but no noticeable changes from the march files
redeeman: Azalyn: the client is the very least, a SINGLE person can make a steam client in a few months tops
Azalyn: porting steam to linux could've been done overnight if they used winelib. and tweaked for performance.
RambJoe: :(
redeeman: Azalyn: the actual games are what matters
wait4steam: no wine stuiff plz
Daekdroom: Azalyn, and make it look like a poor Windows port?
RambJoe: isn't some of the stuff on private servers
Azalyn: don't make light of the client.. the original windows one took them forever to polish it
jelso: the client is based on webkit
Azalyn: they worked on it for god knows how long, they released it, it was broken as hell..
Azalyn: and took them months to fix it.
rsk: it's still horribly broken
Azalyn: Daekdroom: well, steam already has a different UI than any other app, so it would look different even if it were native.
rsk: you need 1ghz and 512mb ram just to run the Steam GUI.
Azalyn: as a result, most people wouldn't notice.
Daekdroom: Azalyn, right, I forgot about that, but wouldn't that make it only much harder to port it using winelib?
jelso: the steam client is now based on webkit, the source engine on opengl; shouldn't be too hard to release linux binaries
RambJoe: how did you manage to run the client btw
RambJoe: on linux
mastertheknife: lol no winelib! don't give them ideas!
mastertheknife: they might be reading this
RambJoe: hello gabe
jelso: oh hai
Azalyn: Daekdroom: no, wine is an implementation of the core windows APIs, any windows app, is using the windows APIs. and wine tries to implement all the ones that are in use, and stubs anything that is rare.
Daekdroom: Azalyn, Yeah, but having a different GUI would make it less likely wine can render it corretly.
Gabe_Newell: hi guys
jelso: the steam GUI is based on webkit; no need for wine
Gabe_Newell: O_o
Azalyn: not really. wine is an implementation of the libraries on windows. it's not an emulator.
RambJoe: is the whole client based on webkit
Gabe_Newell: there will be steam on linux not
jelso: source is opengl'd
Daekdroom: But it doesn't have every library properly, or implemented at all.
RambJoe: or just the browsser
Azalyn: to put it as bluntly as possible, wine is a windows *rewrite* minus the kernel.
Daekdroom: It's not a full rewrite, that's my point
Daekdroom: It's possible it misses some libraries that steam client needs
Azalyn: not likely given that steam does run on wine...
jelso: meh... possibly
mastertheknife: lol wait4steam
jelso: steam on Mac is not cocoa native
Azalyn: wine already has a pretty complete implementation of the windows APIs. pretty much everything is implemented. a few extremely rarely used ones are stubed instead, but those pretty much never prevent the app from working.
Azalyn: you just get a "fixme" as a debug message.
Daekdroom: Azalyn: I have so much experience that tells otherwise.
Daekdroom: Such as installer regressions in the past few versions.
RambJoe: how did phoronix get the linux client running btw?
DonScott: valve needs more developers.
Azalyn: regressions doesn't mean wine doesn't have implementations of the windows APIs, it simply means that some of it is still buggy because of the sheer brainfuck nature of win32 as a platform.
jelso: I want windows to die and I hope it burns in hell
wait4steam: wine is slow and buggy but nice to have
Azalyn: in our example we are talking about using winelib, and in such a scenario, the company porting their app would optimize *to* target winelib. they would fix the issues in their code, if any, that make it not work optimally.
jelso: I think from a biz standpoint: valve has to go platform neutral to compete with consoles
Azalyn: also, installers usually use msi which depends on com. and that is where most of the breakage occurs. com is probably the single most complicated aspect of wine.
jelso: also, probably best not too put all their eggs in M$ or Apple's basket
Azalyn: even more so than directx support.
mesula: Steam has 26m subscribers compared to Xbox Live's 23m.
Azalyn: anyways, this isn't how valve is doing the port from what i understand.
Azalyn: apparently they just rewrote steam entirely, and created their own toolkit library on top of opengl or something.
Azalyn: which makes it multiplatform.
Azalyn: as for porting the game engine, i would imagine it took a bit more than 100,000
mastertheknife: I doubt it took more than 100,000
mastertheknife: One developer himself is enough for the job
mastertheknife: and he can do that in 2 months
Azalyn: it's taken ryan gordon more than 2 months for his ports in the past.. (to say nothing of ut3)
RambJoe: unfortunately alfred seems to be working on mac
Azalyn: not to mention that in the case of unreal, the engine already supports opengl.
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Unreal3 already supports OpenGL?? you sure about this?
Azalyn: RambJoe: yeah but his job description claims that he's done linux ports of games.
RambJoe: yeah i know :P
Azalyn: mastertheknife: yes. i'm not sure if the actual release of ut3 included it, but the engine itself in middleware form *does* support opengl.
Azalyn: it is one of their bullet points.
mastertheknife: I really don't care about UT3 though anymore, it became a real joke. i just want steam for linux and i'll be happy
mastertheknife: Steam on linux is a real gift to linux users
Azalyn: after all, ut3 is marketed as supporting the PS3
Azalyn: "The latest release is the Unreal Engine 3, which is designed around Microsoft's DirectX 9 technology for 32/64-bit Windows XP/Windows Vista/Windows 7 and Xbox 360 platforms, DirectX 10 and DirectX 11 for 32/64-bit Windows Vista/Windows 7, and OpenGL for 32/64-bit Linux, Mac OS X and PlayStation 3."
DeathCrawler: Ronnie James Dio... :...
jelso: I just want Team Fortress 2
Azalyn: the windows api is really fucked up. depending on how many stupid things a developer has done to tie their engine to windows... it may end up being very difficult to do a port.
Azalyn: some companies even use undocumented APIs and functionality to squeeze more performance.
Azalyn: that's another thing that makes linux a better platform i think. since there is no such thing as an undocumented API on linux.
Azalyn: hell, if you really wanted to, you could just talk directly to the kernel and not even use libc i imagine, the engine could have it's own built-in C functions. heh
Azalyn: no overhead.
mastertheknife: Azalyn: The biggest challenging in porting a game is converting an DirectX based engine to OpenGL
Azalyn: yes, i am aware of that.
Azalyn: but depending on the engine, there may be many other roadblocks.
mastertheknife: heh
Azalyn: if you are using C functions that don't exist in the C standard, but exist in visual studio... then you may have to rewrite a fuckload of code.
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Yeah i know what you mean
Azalyn: it's even worse for windows 64bit. because microsoft uses LLP64 and linux/unix/mac/everythingelse uses LP64 for it's data model.
mastertheknife: I used to code a little in visual C++
Azalyn: the datatypes are therefore different sizes in 64bit on both platforms
mastertheknife: Azalyn: Yeah
Azalyn: it can turn into a real clusterfuck.
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, i heard a story that Linux port of Source was based on Winelib a few months ago
mastertheknife: Azalyn: long is the only difference but yeah if not careful then not good
Azalyn: although i'd definitely like to believe that valve knows what they're doing.
DonScott: so.....in 10 years....will Direct X be a non-factor as far as games go ?
mastertheknife: omg no winelib please
mastertheknife: hangs himself
Gnurdux: DonScott, nope
Azalyn: Gnurdux: if the mac one doesn't use winelib, there's no reason to assume the linux one will.
RambJoe: hope so
Gnurdux: opengl still won't support directx 12 features and it iwll be up to directx 15 :D
mastertheknife: the winelib project should *nuked*
Azalyn: opengl supports every single feature that direct3d does
Gnurdux: and the CAD people will be like "No you can't change it you'll break our 30-year-old code"
Azalyn: and more... :|
mastertheknife: should be*
Azalyn: and supports them first.
Gnurdux: Azalyn, not really
Azalyn: yes really.
Gnurdux: that was true 10 years ago
Daekdroom: Azalyn: It's just that.... no opensource driver uses such opengl features
Daekdroom: so, it doesn't make a difference
Gnurdux: Daekdroom, most of us arent gonna stick to open source drivers
Azalyn: well, at the moment we have to stick with the proprietary drivers.
Azalyn: until the ATI opensource ones are complete, at the very least.
Daekdroom: Gnurdux, I am.. ._.
Azalyn: progress is pretty good.
Azalyn: but it will take time.
Daekdroom: Not like I want to try linux for gaming
Azalyn: i've already stopped buying nvidia. i'm going to buy ati from now on.
Gnurdux: Azalyn, anyway it partly falls to how we define opengl
Azalyn: since they opened the docs.
Gnurdux: supported
Gnurdux: and features
mastertheknife: I really doubt Valve will depend on winelib
mastertheknife: I hope i'm right
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, this was several months ago
Azalyn: i define opengl as opengl. if you omit the extensions, then you are handicapping it and neglecting one of opengl's greatest strengths.
Gnurdux: the person who claimed to have seen the build said he didn't know if it changed since then
Gnurdux: Azalyn, ok good
mastertheknife: Azalyn: AMD's open source drivers are a step in the right direction, but AMD drops support for old hardware VERY quickly, unlike nvidia.
Gnurdux: but still falls down to what we define as a feature
mastertheknife: Gnurdux: probably a rumor
Gnurdux: im pretty sure that any definition of feature that gives opengl features not in directx also does vice versa
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, well this person claimed to have seen the build
Azalyn: mastertheknife: well, i think that's temporary. i think it's because amd doesn't want to deal with ATI's older cards. they want only to support the newer "AMD-released" ATI cards.
mastertheknife: Gnurdux: the engine, not the client right?
Azalyn: basically, only from when they became in charge.
Gnurdux: Azalyn, also realize that ATI still doesn't support the 5000 series notebook cards in their *proprietary* drivers
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, Source not Steam, yes
DonScott: wait what ?
Azalyn: maybe because they've changed the hardware in some way, and they want to support only the new stuff, instead of being burdened with supporting ATI's legacy stuff.
mastertheknife: Gnurdux: Maybe they were experimenting with winelib
DonScott: ATI doesn't have drivers for the 5000 ?
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, this story was a little bit sketchy though
Gnurdux: person claimed ot be an ex-Red Hat employee
DonScott: wtf kinda video card company are they running ?
Gnurdux: and that red hat was helping Valve port it
Gnurdux: DonScott, not *officially* for their notebook ones
Gnurdux: which is actually a serious problem for me
Gnurdux: because they are quite a bit cheaper than nvidias and use less power as well at the same performance level
Gnurdux: and as far as i know they have given no comment as to when they will support them, either ;)
Daekdroom: It shouldn't be very hard to support mobility hd5000 once desktop support arrives, should it?
Gnurdux: so if the existence of drivers that work vs open source drivers that sort of work is more important (as it is to me) then nvidia is better
Gnurdux: Daekdroom, well in fact it is already supported... sort of
Gnurdux: it has the ati unsupported watermark thing but Kano has some way to disable that
Kano: Daekdroom: what distro do you use?
Daekdroom: Kano, ubuntu 10.04
DonScott: why would you release a video card without official drivers ? Its starting to sound like a Dilbert cartoon.
Azalyn: for the meantime, i have two machines. this one has a geforce 7900gs, which is from before ati was acquired by amd. back then, ati was way worse at supporting opensource, they didn't even make an effort. so i bought nvidia.
Azalyn: so for now, i'm ok. this card is good enough to play source games.
Azalyn: valve is good at supporting old hardware. they have a very efficient engine.
Azalyn: even in linux with wine i've been able to play Team Fortress 2 with this card.
Azalyn: so their native port *even* with a d3d->opengl layer should be better than this. if not at launch, then later with updates.
Azalyn: so i'm not worried.
Azalyn: and then i have a second machine that is a more 'proper' game machine, which has a radeon hd 4800. that one i bought when i heard that amd was opening up ati hardware documentation.
RambJoe: is osx case sensitive
jelso: yes
Azalyn: i had a kvm to switch between them, but it went haywire, i'm gonna rma it, and eventually i'll have my setup the way it was before. the good thing is that if the 'gaming machine' crashes, i won't mind since it's dedicated to that alone. so i won't lose anything else i'm doing on the machine.
RambJoe: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=8601-RYPX-5789 so that doesn't apply anymore
Gnurdux: DonScott, none for Linux
Azalyn: so with this setup, i will be comfortable 'waiting' for the ati opensource drivers to improve. i'm in no hurry.
Gnurdux: certainly are official drivers for Windows
Azalyn: i'm even thinking of getting an msi radeon hd 5770 hawk
RambJoe: if steam does come for linux, would i be able to install it on another harddrive?
Kvisle: eh, what?
Kvisle: worst case, create a hard link between the destination steam wants, and the drive you want to install on
DonScott: we are doooooooomed./
RambJoe: :S
Nevtus: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1262853 talk about ungrateful
DonScott: more mactard elitist ranting
Azalyn: i think valve is going to end up preferring to support linux users rather than mac users.
Azalyn: linux users would send them full complete bug reports, with debug output, screenshots, and documentation..
Azalyn: mactards would just yell "FIXIT!!!!!!!!!11111111111"
mastertheknife: lol
Azalyn: "u guyz sux, why is it black! make it WHITE... :("
Nevtus: is that a real post?
Azalyn: no.
Azalyn: well... sorta.
Azalyn: i'm pretty sure it is, somewhere, out there.
Azalyn: but no, i didn't read it from anywhere. :P
Nevtus: it's the sort of thing I'd expect Mac people to be thinking
Azalyn: do they *really* expect valve to make app bundles of applications with 6GB of data? :|
Azalyn: doesn't the mac have anything like launchers or whatever...
Azalyn: how primitive.
Nevtus: I'd have thought it would
Azalyn: the app bundle thing is retarded anyways.
Azalyn: it's basically like having your program in a zip file
Azalyn: and the zip file can execute directly
Nevtus: I've never really played with Mac OS for any length of time so I wouldn't know
Nevtus: but over the summer I might be working on a Mac for a uni project
Nevtus: not sure how I'll feel about that
Azalyn: try not to gauge your eyes out.
Azalyn: if you can avoid that, you'll be fine.
RambJoe: checking version of gcc... 4.4.3, bad
RambJoe: do i need an old gcc
Azalyn: what're you doing?
RambJoe: trying to run ut99
RambJoe: which needs glibc-2.1.3
mastertheknife: ut99 has gone open source?
Azalyn: i've got 4.3.2
Nevtus: I used an iMac once for some quick web browsing about a year ago and was shocked at the wasted screen space of the dock/topbar/window dressings
RambJoe: dont think so
mastertheknife: Well i played UT99 on windows but never on linux
Azalyn: there was an openut thing, but uh, don't use that.
Nevtus: ut99 open source :O where?
Azalyn: it's not really opensource.
mastertheknife: Nevtus: My bad i thought the gcc error was from compiling
Nevtus: thought not
Azalyn: are you trying to compile an older glibc than what you have...?
Azalyn: :|
RambJoe: its glibc-2.1.3 which i'm compiling
RambJoe: oh
RambJoe: shouldn't i do that lol
Azalyn: did you try running ut99 ?
Azalyn: did it crash?
RambJoe: well the ut99 (demo) splash screen shows for like a second
RambJoe: then closes
Azalyn: try the full game
RambJoe: could be as im using 2 monitors
RambJoe: um i dunno where to get
mastertheknife: RambJoe: very likely
Azalyn: i don't think glibc is the problem....
Azalyn: glibc is usually "version x or later"
Azalyn: you don't need the older version.
RambJoe: still doesn't work
mastertheknife: Yeah its probably not glibc, nothing really changed inside that would break compatibility
RambJoe: oh
RambJoe: http://www.atomicgamer.com/directory.php?id=2007
RambJoe: is that the full game?
Azalyn: "This means if you wish to switch away from the game and back again, you cannot click the original game icon, or it'll complain about launching a new instance."
Azalyn: lolz..
Azalyn: mac's taskbar fails
Nevtus: they also don't like OK buttons
Azalyn: that's what happens when you try to merge the taskbar with the functionality of launchers.
Azalyn: what do they have instead of "OK" ?
Azalyn: on mac
Nevtus: it's not in apples "Humain Interface Guidelines"
Nevtus: they expect to change and setting and it is immediately changed
Nevtus: or something
Nevtus: *change a setting
Azalyn: that's not a terrible idea.
Azalyn: but personally, if you do that, i want a "revert" button or whatever.
Azalyn: to go back to the previous settings
Azalyn: that way if you mess shit up and don't remember what you changed
Azalyn: you can put it all back
Nevtus: like just hitting cancel instead of OK?
DonScott: remember the people you're dealing with Azalyn
Azalyn: yeah, Nevtus
DonScott: one of them couldn't even download portal without youtube raging
Azalyn: gimp has 'revert' buttons in it's settings
Nevtus: it's amusing most of these people are complaining about UI more than anything else
Azalyn: you know the gaming box i mentioned earlier? when i built that thing, i made sure to get intel hardware, and a gigabyte motherboard. i picked these components on purpose. because i had read on forums that gigabyte is the ideal motherboard vendor when you want to make a hackintosh.
Modplan: there were a lot of complaints about UI, inc. on windows
Azalyn: and intel cpu's are pretty much necessary. because with amd you have to patch everything to hell, so it's fucked up.
Azalyn: i figured since i'm buying a new box, i might as well make it flexible, i wanted to try a hackintosh, so i could see what the fuss was about with os x.
Nevtus: "Is not just eye-candy, it's adhering to a visual grammar well-know to Mac users that makes software easier and a pleasure to use."
Nevtus: lol...
Azalyn: i still plan to try triple-booting it at some point.
Azalyn: hm, "it's not eye candy, but it's eye candy"
Azalyn: that's pretty much how i read that.
Nevtus: poor rbarris http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14966496&postcount=213
DonScott: if they ever do a hardware survey for mac they might get laughed at.....unless there is somehow a surplus of Mac Pros in gaming.
Azalyn: my god, they should have released the linux port first. we would not be bitching like that. we'd be thankful.
Nevtus: and providing real feedback
JEEB: There's always the FSF fanboys who would be outraged that there's "another patent-filled closed-source application that brings DRM onto the loonix market" around >_> There's whackos everywhere. Mac users, *nix users... Windows users too
JEEB: Of course, if you meant this channel -- yes, there most probably would be feedback coming from here :V
RambJoe: Please mount the Unreal Tournament for Linux CDROM.
RambJoe: aww hell naw, didn't even know there was a cd lol
redeeman: lol
redeeman: what did you expect it to be on?
rsk: in the mines of mount moria
RambJoe: lol do i just put in the windows cs
RambJoe: cd
RambJoe: this is why we need steam :(
Nevtus: does the windows cd have the linux files on it?
SimmyD: it has art assests
SimmyD: assets
SimmyD: i believe
RambJoe: ok thanks :)
RambJoe: i will try tomorrow
jelso: does freedom mean freedom to choose what kind of software I want to use?
jelso: lol Nevtus @ the link
jelso: Mac users don't want games; they want shinny UIs
jelso: "Steam for Mac does not use CoverFlow; deleting..."
Azalyn: steam isn't patent filled...
Azalyn: lolz.
Azalyn: what are you going to patent... downloading?
Azalyn: web browsing?
Azalyn: and it's not technically drm.. i guess it depends. there isn't any shit like safedisk, that's for sure.
Azalyn: and you're not limited on how many computers you can install it, etc, the way drm is..
Azalyn: the files aren't encrypted and don't require some key to decrypt or whatever.. basically all they do is make it so you have to sign in online at least once to verify your games. and then you can play them offline if you want.
Azalyn: pretty softcore stuff. although at launch people thought it was bad, because back then most games had only cd keys.
Azalyn: but since then, with all the really insane drm'd games that have come out, steam is pretty softcore by comparison. it just makes you go online once. and you don't have to enter cd keys either. (unless you bought retail. adding the cd key will add the games to your steam catalog automagically)
Azalyn: the closed-source aspect though, the FSF guys would probably dislike that i imagine.
Azalyn: hm, too bad RambJoe left. the windows cd is what you use.
Azalyn: you get the linux binaries online. and they will use the data files from the windows cd.
Nevtus: just like Id games
Azalyn: you can tell him tomorrow, if i'm not on.
Azalyn: and he asks.
DonScott: sometimes....i dream of cheese
Gnurdux: so the response to all those mac posts is so very simpl
Gnurdux: e
Gnurdux: If you say that any Mac program needs to satisfy Apple's guidelines, you then make it unequivocally true that it's harder to program for Mac than Windows
Gnurdux: and then you justify not making Mac ports
DonScott: who said that ?
DonScott: the post in the forums ?
DonScott: this one is funnier http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1266413
DonScott: only one that got decent fps is the Ma Pro
DonScott: Mac*
Gnurdux: would it perform that badly on Linux?
DonScott: no
DonScott: linux doesn't have hardware lock in
Azalyn: what lock in do you mean?
Azalyn: i figured the problem on mac is just that their driver sucks.
Azalyn: it's not optimized well enough from what i've read.
Azalyn: the proprietary video drivers from nvidia and ati perform about the same as the windows ones.
Azalyn: they use the same code for both platforms for their drivers.
DonScott: you can't easily change any hardware on a mac.
Azalyn: i don't think that's the problem though.
Azalyn: many of these people are reporting that with windows on bootcamp, with the *same* hardware, they get far higher framerate
DonScott: ah ok
Azalyn: so the bottleneck is in the OS, or in the game engine. and all the data so far shows it's really the OS.
Azalyn: hehe, if valve launches the linux version soon... then the mac fans will be furious. :)
Azalyn: because it will probably run much better for us.
mikeplus64: Lots of idiots on the Steam forums would be screaming "LINUX SUXXXXXXORRSSS!!!!1111ONE1111111"
DonScott: i'm just saying the only ones with decent performance were the mac pros and the hackintoshs
mikeplus64: http://valvesoftware.com/company/people.html Find the one for "Alfred Reynolds" and you'll see it says that he does "does his best to maintain the Linux ports of our games". Awesome.
Gnurdux: DonScott, i mean on comparable hardware
Gnurdux: DonScott, you can't easily change the hardware on a laptop either
Azalyn: mikeplus64: yes, we found that already.
Gnurdux: and the thing is
Gnurdux: he means
Gnurdux: the dedicated servers
DonScott: laptops are horrid.....why would you game seriously on that.
Gnurdux: notice the "maintain"
Azalyn: Gnurdux: someone already suggested that.
rsk: =)
Azalyn: but honestly, they say "games"
mikeplus64: If it meant servers it would say 'servers', not 'games'.
Azalyn: which is very specific.
Gnurdux: DonScott, because not everyone can afford a decent desktop and a decent laptop?
mikeplus64: But I could be wrong.
Gnurdux: and some people need mobility so can't have just a desktop?
Azalyn: i think valve is toying with us.
DonScott: Mac for Steam is the guinea pig for Linux
DonScott: lol
Azalyn: i think they are just dealing with having to test on various distros with linux.
DonScott: they would really need to only pick one though
mikeplus64: They would have to make things pretty generic.
gitano: mikeplus64: well, these days them idiots on the steam forums are extremely silent :D
mikeplus64: Or compatibility issues would poop up.
mikeplus64: That said, the Linux ports of id games like say Quake 4 and ETQW have never had any problems that weren't fixable easily. ( eg. PulseAudio being a bully when I used Fedora )
mikeplus64: Spanning 4 distros that I've tried it with.
mikeplus64: ( Sabayon, OpenSUSE, Fedora and now Arch lol )
SimmyD: valve would need ot make it work on a bunch of distros
SimmyD: they cant just pick one
SimmyD: imagine the uproar lol
rsk: i'd like if they made the port slackware specific
Wicked: they would prob release a bin/shell script like alot of linux games do.
rsk: or let's say puppy linux
SimmyD: unless they just pick fedora
mikeplus64: The main issue would probably be getting it to work well on anything other than the NVIDIA proprietary drivers.
Wicked: et and so on
SimmyD: then thats ok
SimmyD: they should only really target nvidia and ati proprietary drivers
SimmyD: all the others are not up for 3d performance
SimmyD: not gaming wise
mikeplus64: Yep.
mikeplus64: How is fglrx going?
SimmyD: havnt touched it in ages lol
SimmyD: i got an nvidia card :P
Azalyn: better than before from what i hear
SimmyD: i have heard good things though
Azalyn: but still not comparable to nvidia-proprietary
Azalyn: at the moment we are really waiting for the ati opensource drivers to get better.
Azalyn: as well as for gallium and all this new shit to make it on mainstream distributions
SimmyD: i am not too fussed about the opensourceing of video drivers
SimmyD: just make them work well
Azalyn: them working well is something that will happen a lot faster with an opensource implementation.
Azalyn: when compared to mature opensource drivers like the intel ones, the nvidia drivers are put to shame stability-wise.
rsk: well if nvidia+ati gave source for their drivers
Azalyn: basically, proprietary drivers just have the performance edge.
rsk: and made a repo and they accept patches that are good upstream
Azalyn: but in terms of stability, they are terrible.
rsk: they would kick-ass
SimmyD: there is stuff in the drivers that cant be made opensource though
Azalyn: nvidia is a bit better, basically if you don't poke it too much, it won't kick your ass..
SimmyD: how they do all the inner workings
Azalyn: ati is a bit more sensitive.
SimmyD: competitive edge and all
mikeplus64: If the Nvidia drivers were open sourced it would be awesome, fglrx could probably be improved on and be up to par with it if it got enough attention.
Azalyn: SimmyD: that's actually a myth. the companies already pretty much know what they need to know about eachother's products.
Azalyn: if the community can reverse engineer that shit, then companies with millions of dollars can do it even better
SimmyD: thats a way to look at it
Azalyn: at this point though we're not asking for opensource drivers. but just documentation.
Azalyn: amd has already provided that for ati hardware.
Azalyn: which is great.
Azalyn: but now we have to play the waiting game.
SimmyD: eh i hate writing documentation
SimmyD: lol ;)
rsk: yea i guess the ati gues went fuck that
rsk: when they got an order to write complete hardware documentation
rsk: guys*
SimmyD: lol yup
SimmyD: worst part of a tech job
mikeplus64: Now we need lots of people to develop the open source ATi drivers with the documentation and... Write fglrx only less buggy and more compatible. lolo
Azalyn: what i've been told is that writing a 3d video driver is about as complicated as the entire linux kernel.
Azalyn: which explains why it's taking some time. hehehe
SimmyD: Azalyn: i believe that
rsk: nah understanding the whole kernel includes some drivers already
Azalyn: but eventually it'll happen.
rsk: so it's not as "tough"
Azalyn: and gallium will help with this process.
SimmyD: googles gallium
rsk: rule #34 on gallium.
Azalyn: basically gallium3d is a lower level API.
Azalyn: opengl would be implemented on 'top' of gallium
Azalyn: it's a lower level layer. and you write 'state trackers' on top.
Azalyn: like the opengl state tracker.
SimmyD: ahh makes sense
Azalyn: and the opencl one (this is for stuff like CUDA, general purpose programming on GPU's, or GPGPU)
SimmyD: when is it meant to be rolled out to the distros?
Azalyn: in theory, you could even write a Direct3D state tracker for gallium, and then you've basically got a 100% 'native' implementation of D3D on linux.
Azalyn: i'm not sure when, some distros already seem to include it.. but it's not universally mainstream yet
mikeplus64: I don't know if Microsoft would be too happy about that. ;)
Azalyn: they can't do anything
Azalyn: just like they can't do anything about wine.
kloplop321: microsoft can suck it.
mikeplus64: Wikipedia tells me that Nouveau uses it already.
SimmyD: i saw that nouveau was moving towards it
SimmyD: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzk4MQ
SimmyD: so where does the driver sit in comparison to opengl and gallium3d?
Azalyn: in the kernel i guess.
Azalyn: the kernel module would interface with the "direct rendering manager" aspect of the kernel
Azalyn: then gallium sits on top of that
Azalyn: and then opengl on top of that
SimmyD: so the driver is lower than gallium3d
Azalyn: yeah, i would think so.
SimmyD: so apps talk to gallium instead of the individual vender drivers making it easier to program for?
Azalyn: apps talk to opengl
SimmyD: which will only need to talk to one thing one instead of multiple
Azalyn: nouveau is making some pretty amazing progress...
Azalyn: maybe i won't even have to change the card in this pc with an ati one... nouveau might just work well enough one day, for my needs.
Azalyn: fedora is always pretty bleeding edge. but it will take some time to see that in other distros.
Azalyn: honestly, if it's not on ubuntu yet, then it's probably not mainstream.
Azalyn: and once it hits debian, it's way *past* mainstream. ;)
SimmyD: haha
SimmyD: thats why i roll with fedora :)
DonScott: maybe valve would do they're own distro......i doubt it but it's not impossible.
Azalyn: i use gentoo.
DonScott: oops
Azalyn: since i want control.
SimmyD: i used to use gentoo ;)
Azalyn: i like knowing everything i've installed.
DonScott: they're not = to their
SimmyD: DonScott: highly doubt it.
SimmyD: DonScott: i wouldnt jump distro for steam
DonScott: yeah....i'm just saying it's not outta the question.
DonScott: probably not what they would do though
Wicked: steams not gonna make a whole distro lol
mikeplus64: Valve should use a fairly bleeding edge distro such as Arch or Fedora to keep compatibility I suppose.
Wicked: hell...steam may not even make alinux port!
Azalyn: it is out of the question. :)
Azalyn: trust me.
DonScott: yeah i know...i was just thinking out loud.
Azalyn: well stop, damnit.
Wicked: lol
DonScott: nevar !!!
Azalyn: who told you that you could do that?
Sir_Brizz: if you keep talking about this, Valve will stop working on the Linux port
DonScott: lmao
Azalyn: yeah, see what you've done now?
Wicked: if they have not already
Wicked: -_-
Sir_Brizz: lol
NigeyUK: hmmm
NigeyUK: i got a very cryptic reply from valve about the linux client.
Sir_Brizz: ?
DonScott: shut your mouth.
DonScott: really ?
NigeyUK: yeah from rbarris
Sir_Brizz: ]what does it say?
NigeyUK: That would be a strategic / marketing decision. I'm a contractor on the GL module.. offsite at that.
NigeyUK: It would make sense that if they were trying to make a decision, they might do a proof of concept first. They probably also want to see how the Mac effort pans out, which could take a while.
Sir_Brizz: yeah he's not even on the Valve people list
NigeyUK: seems hes been brought in just for OGL stuff
NigeyUK: which would make him the prime candidate to know if its gonna be done on linux lol
DonScott: sooooo.....he doesn't even know yet ?
NigeyUK: or he cant say
NigeyUK: i dunno m8
NigeyUK: ure guess is as good as mine
DonScott: linux at earliest next year then.
DonScott: if they do
DonScott: as all
DonScott: at*
Sir_Brizz: he probably wouldn't know
Sir_Brizz: he's helping to write the OGL renderer
Sir_Brizz: that's not exactly platform dependent code
DonScott: no but someone said earlier that they would have to test several distros
Sir_Brizz: not yet
Azalyn: if he's not in-house, i wouldn't really take his statements as an indication that it will only arrive "next year"
Sir_Brizz: they wouldn't do that until they had it functional on one platform
Azalyn: there is no way for him to know
Sir_Brizz: I think if they are doing it, having Portal 2 launch on there would be important
Modplan: half-life 3 for Linux steam launch next month
DonScott: lol
Modplan: I'll be damned if I'm wrong
DonScott: hands Modplan some ice.....good luck with that
SimmyD: i want to believe :P
NigeyUK: hehe well i think its nice i finally got a reply from someone at valve, what it means, i dont know, lets just wait n see.
DonScott: it would be great if that happened though.
Gnurdux: NigeyUK, what is this reply?
Modplan: where did he reply? email or forums
NigeyUK: foum pm
Gnurdux: Confirmed: Half-Life 3 released for Linux May 2010
NigeyUK: lol
Gnurdux: Modplan is an undeniably accurate source
SimmyD: Gnurdux: caps or not real
SimmyD: :P
NigeyUK: lmao anyway im off back to sleep guys its gone 3am, ill update if i hear back from anyone else i contacted
Modplan: Gnurdux of course. Not only have I broken such major confirmations like steam for linux and HL3 for launch, I also announced Obama winning election and man reaching the moon
Gnurdux: heh
Gnurdux: hmm we should mass-email gaben
Sir_Brizz: CONSPIRACY Obama is not the President and we have never been to the moon!
mikeplus64: Confirmed!@
jelso: Obama uses a Blackberry; there is a B in Barack; LINUX STEAM CONFIRMED
DonScott: steam for linux w00t http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYKM3jxX4EI&playnext_from=TL&videos=56oZQYbDtlI&feature=sub
DonScott: j/k
tkmorris: confirmed!