Phoronix IRC Log: 2010-05-07
Megagun: Now shows average spent per OS
Megagun: Windows: $6.81 (~61%)
Megagun: err, 51%
Megagun: OSX: $9.61 (~25%)
Megagun: Linux: $13.66 (~24%)
asciiwolf: Megagun, nice! :)
Megagun: Oh.. Their statistics were stupid
Megagun: The graph doesn't show % sales, it shows % money
Megagun: "Our breakdown for number of donations per platform is: 65% Windows, 21% Mac, and 14% Linux."
mastertheknife: Have you seen the humble indie bundle statistics? linux users pay the most: http://www.wolfire.com/humble#statistics
mjr: was actually just going to go there
mjr: going to pay reasonably, too
mjr: maybe 30, fuck that 29.95 shit they have there in gray ;)
mjr: and maybe another for mother's day ;)
skyhirider: heh, noticed that too. Was thinking of paying 8 that was average but the linux user statistics put me to shame :D
Ivanovic: i already had two of the games, so i decided to pay ~10€ ($12.5)
Ivanovic: the main reason being that they do support multi platform
skyhirider: yeah, same here, already own aquaria on steam but don't have the others, thou i read that aquaria does not have a native port as of yet so the question remains if the linux platform is only supported using wine
Ivanovic: skyhirider: they do offer a native port
Ivanovic: via this download
Ivanovic: skyhirider: all of the games got a native version via this system of selling
Ivanovic: and yeah, for aquaria it is the *only* way to get the native linux version
skyhirider: interesting how linux support evolves, the devs said no for linux, then maybe and then that they are almost finished :P
mastertheknife: and all those 5 games run very good under linux
sannn: did steam for linux recieved an updated with the latest steamclient update? Or do they only update the steamclient.so files used by the dedicated servers?
espes: sannn: only steamclient.so
sannn: hmm so it seems like a pet project :(
mastertheknife: they only updated the files that are used in dedicated servers
mastertheknife: the rest of the files are from 10th march :(
mastertheknife: maybe they did update them, but not release them, lol
sannn: well it seems like files from a buildserver
mastertheknife: Another good deal similar to the humble indie bundle: http://blog.linuxgamepublishing.com/2009/05/07/in-response-to-the-pricing-question/
mastertheknife: Ah nevermind the guy that sent me this link didn't notice its last year
bullfinch: o hai! I`m looking to buy a new screencard as my 275gtx fucked itself. I want nvidia, but there is only really expencive nvidiacards on the market. How is ATI nowadays when it comes to linux-usage?
bullfinch: And whats up with the ads that dont want to go away that are over the text in all the articles. (using chromium on a mac)
mastertheknife: ATI's linux drivers are not as good as nvidia's
sado1: open source drivers are better than nvidia's, closed source drivers are worse than nvidia's
jumbers: bullfinch: o hai thar
mastertheknife: Wow.. i have Call of Duty MW2 in my steam
jumbers: mastertheknife: Free weekend
skyhirider: free weekend
mastertheknife: Too bad i can't run it in linux :(
mastertheknife: I will download anyway maybe it will work slowly through wine
mastertheknife: anyone tried?
skyhirider: i doubt it, also prepare for extremely slow download speeds
jumbers: https://www.dropbox.com/static/images/emails/iphonetip.jpg hehe
skyhirider: heh, instaling gnome desktop on a empty ubuntu takes 1,2 gigs of disk space
Ivanovic: bullfinch: what do you plan to do with your card?
Ivanovic: bullfinch: for native apps ati cards are fine
Ivanovic: for 2d only and watching videos you could even completely rely on the open source drivers which are basically perfect
jumbers: They're great for cooking breakfast
Ivanovic: 2d is (in the latest official) 10.4 drivers not perfect, but usable, the open source drivers are a lot faster there though
bullfinch: Im going for a gts250 i guess
Ivanovic: from what i heard the 10.6 drivers will make the proprietary drivers about as fast in 2d as the open source ones already are
bullfinch: with hdcp, hdmi and dual dvi
Ivanovic: if you want to use wine: no idea how good fglrx is with wine these days, they probably improved but are not perfect
Ivanovic: bullfinch: ain't the gts250 not just some renamed "ancient" card?
Ivanovic: IIRC nvidia was really extreme with those renaming effords...
bullfinch: Ivanovic: yeah
bullfinch: but I hope/think it works with dx11
bullfinch: when I`m windowsing
Ivanovic: basically the 250 card is just a plain 9800gt!
Ivanovic: so you are restricted to plain directx 10.0 on windows
Ivanovic: if you are running windows in parallel for gaming i'd personally recommend to use an ati card
Ivanovic: those are reasonable cheap, fast and work nicely for basically everything beside gaming via wine (no experience there)
Ivanovic: regarding ati hardware based on the hd3850 that i am currently using: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?p=126092#post126092
Ivanovic: jumbers: it depends on what you do use
Ivanovic: jumbers: if you use fglrx: they basically use as much power as under windows, since the energy saving mechanisms work then
Ivanovic: with the open source driverrs it depends on which kernel you use
Ivanovic: if you stay with a rather old one: yeah, they drain power, if you follow bleeding edge: they are constantly getting better
Ivanovic: bullfinch: if you want to use the directx11 render path under windows and spend <$300 you currently have no choice but buying ati hardware
Ivanovic: since there is no "mainstream" DX11 hardware from nvidia so far
bullfinch: I guess Ill stick with the 250gts
bullfinch: its crap
bullfinch: but its nvidia and they have it in store
Ivanovic: bullfinch: you might want to check which radeon 5750 they got, should be faster than the nvidia card and work nicely, too (that is: you could ask your dealer if you can test for a day if the card does work nicely for you using linux)
Ivanovic: good dealers normally allow this, especially if you tell him that you will come back and buy the nvidia card instead if you are not satisfied
bullfinch: thnx for the tip
Ivanovic: (yes, personally i dislike stuff like "its crap but nvidia, so it shall be fine")
Ivanovic: and if you want to buy a gts250: better go for a 9800gt instead, those are the same chips anyway
Ivanovic: you just pay additionally because the name suggests that it would be a more recent card (which it clearly is not!)
illissius`: hi! anyone know if intel's windows drivers being much faster than the linux ones also applies to the GMA950/945G?
illissius`: i'm asking because when i tried it i couldn't get ut2004 to go much faster under windows than linux -- it was sorta-but-not-really playable on both
illissius`: (and, maybe i just had some kind of misconfiguration on the windows side, which would be nice.)
michaellarabel: illissius: Such tests will be out on Monday
illissius`: hmm, really? :) ok then. didn't expect there to be a followup.
NigeyUK: afternoon :)
bluekoala: Morning :P
NigeyUK: ohh.. morning :)
bluekoala: 3:41pm over there?
NigeyUK: lots of updates for ubuntu 10.4 today :|
NigeyUK: yup, mid afternoon *yawn* lol
bluekoala: Also noticed a chrome update too
NigeyUK: yeah, i also noticed it keeps downloading a corrupt kernel package :S
bluekoala: I'm trying it now
NigeyUK: took 4 attempts to get a working update.. never had that that before on ubuntu
bluekoala: I've had weird problems before
bluekoala: That's because I poked around stuff
NigeyUK: ahh, i do that to much lol
NigeyUK: quite happy with 10.4 so far, a few annoyances mind, firefox seems the most unstable part of it so far
bluekoala: Wine here
bluekoala: I don't use FF as much now
bluekoala: I like chrome better
bluekoala: It feels like a go-kart
bluekoala: With rocket boosters
NigeyUK: ive tried to avoid it as much as i can but i thought i'd play fair and give it another chance, but it seems to just randomly close alot
NigeyUK: chrome is a lovely little browser :D
bluekoala: I've had the best experience with chrome
bluekoala: FF feels clunky is comparison
NigeyUK: yup, feels very bloated
bluekoala: And I've had problems with FF under linux too
bluekoala: I had to uncheck it from the repository and re-check it
bluekoala: Because of malware
Megagun: Did bins_linux update again?
bluekoala: Dunno, I can't check atm
NigeyUK: hm lots on the forums about steam i see
bluekoala: michaellarabel was stating in an article that the volume in this chat has more than doubled since the steam announcements
NigeyUK: doesnt surprise me, if they get steam on linux it'll be a pretty big step
NigeyUK: although a steam client doesnt mean ported source games, but it would kinda make sense
bluekoala: I'm pretty sure it does
bluekoala: One of the first signs of steam coming to linux was linux references in L4D
NigeyUK: i really hope so, the day i can play CS:S and L4D2 on linux is the day i ditch windows for good, ive always swore by that
x-pilot: NigeyUK: w/o games? And what functionality will remain? chat? :-P
NigeyUK: x-pilot, future games probably, just saying they may not backport older source games
bluekoala: I'm on my second attempt to ditch windows for good
NigeyUK: i was almost there, but crossover just isnt that good for source games, even on this c2d
bluekoala: I bought a c2d the other day for my g/f :D
bluekoala: Now I can say I have one
bluekoala: And the intel fanboys can finally %&^$ off
NigeyUK: hehe mine has been a star, its only a 6750 but since day 1 oc'd to 3.2ghz no voltage4 changes, solid as a rock
bluekoala: On this system I'm using a phenom 9500
bluekoala: It's been good to me so far
NigeyUK: do the amd's still run hot? im a bit out of the loop on the amd chips.. they used to be terrible for heat
bluekoala: The nice thing is my mobo is am2+
bluekoala: And I can get a phenom II x6 in here
bluekoala: Provided asus doesn't disappoint
bluekoala: I've never had heat issues with them
NigeyUK: asus are norm pretty good
bluekoala: I've seen worse heat problems with the P4
bluekoala: I find Asus mobo's to be flaky as hell
NigeyUK: i want to upgrade in the winter, but i have no clue what to look out for just yet
NigeyUK: haha the p4 prescotts .. fry an egg !
bluekoala: They were almost as bad as the cyrix in their time
NigeyUK: aww i remember the cyrix .. bless them, they battled to the end lol
NigeyUK: wasnt it via that bought them ?
bluekoala: I don't know who did, but it was probably a terrible investment
bluekoala: Much like buying their chips
NigeyUK: lol so true
NigeyUK: right ill bbs, have to go water the new lawn *yawn* :(
NigeyUK: never rains when you want it to
bluekoala: Don't make it rain on a friday you =/
bluekoala: Tome to install 10.4 desktop on my Eee 701
bluekoala: It makes an excellent SD card reader
mastertheknife: My brother has a 2.8GHz Prescott, its very hot, idling at over 50C
bluekoala: I was having trouble getting to boot off of USB
bluekoala: My USB stick actually shows up as a HDD
mastertheknife: Yeah they are usually detected as USB-HDD
mastertheknife: there is USB-FDD, USB-HDD, USB-ZIP and one other variant
bluekoala: Installation failed
bluekoala: Reason: Lack of "Forward" button
mastertheknife: you are installing ubuntu 10.04 ?
mastertheknife: oh.. nice :)
bluekoala: I'm trying a second time
mastertheknife: I think Ubuntu should have been released with KDE4 as default
bluekoala: It had the same problem the second time
bluekoala: Except the second time, the "Enter" button worked
bluekoala: I haven't used KDE4 yet
bluekoala: gnome does the job pretty well
bluekoala: But Ubuntu with KDE by default is Kubuntu AFAIK
mastertheknife: Yeah but its not as known :P
mastertheknife: i uploaded a screenshot of KDE4 to steam forums.. 1 sec
mastertheknife: Ah, here: http://i.imgur.com/wDMNA.jpg
bluekoala: holy sh!t
bluekoala: The chrome update
bluekoala: Chrome just slapped me in the face
bluekoala: It's ... faster?!?
Kame: In a good way or in a bad way?
Kame: Ah, good way I take it
bluekoala: In a good way
bluekoala: Nice desktop mastertheknife
mastertheknife: thx :)
bluekoala: When buntu 10.4 wants to reboot, it highlights the log out button in red
bluekoala: I'm debating whether it's less annoying than an extra tray icon with a bubble
mastertheknife: Ubuntu wants to remove after updates? sounds like windows :(
mastertheknife: to reboot*
bluekoala: Kernel updates
bluekoala: Not like windows 98 that needs to reboot after you win at solitaire
bluekoala: The good news is, I don't have to reboot
bluekoala: I've had ubuntu running fine while it wanted to reboot
bluekoala: For weeks at a time
bluekoala: I've had an uptime of only 4 days anyway
bluekoala: Rebooting won't be so painful
bluekoala: Unlike when the uptime is over 200 days
mastertheknife: I'm used to Gentoo.. It never tells you to reboot after updating, and kernel updating is done manually by compiling it, copying it and editing grub.conf
mastertheknife: I once updated my Gentoo and few days later rebooted, when it came up i had no mouse and keyboard
mastertheknife: Those xorg updates are always scary
bluekoala: I'm not proficient enough to use gentoo
bluekoala: I would need to get a week off and hire someone to teach me LFS
bluekoala: Instead I take whatever works and grease it up to my liking
bluekoala: I'm a windows admin
bluekoala: But just a linux user :P
bluekoala: I'm good at clicking the easy button and rebooting lol
mastertheknife: I tried so many distros before Gentoo, such as Redhat 6.2, Redhat 7.2, mandrake 8, mandrake 9, redhat 9 and then Gentoo. I never stood whats linux or how it works until i tried Gentoo, the manual installation (console) teaches you so much, and the steep learning curve of gentoo...
bluekoala: That sounds interesting
hylas: bluekoala: try archlinux ;)
bluekoala: Right :P
bluekoala: I don't doubt I can do it, I just doubt I can find the time for it
mastertheknife: Gentoo is installed from console with a guide (handbook) next to you.. it tells you what files to download, extract them, what commands to run, goes with you on configurating /etc/fstab, /etc/clock and all files, etc
mastertheknife: It took me 2-3 days to install Gentoo with X, KDE3.5, openoffice etc
bluekoala: Does it give an explanation of what the commands do? :P
mastertheknife: You can see it here (x86, all in one page) to see how the installation goes: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
sado1: yeah gentoo is like easier LFS with package manager
mastertheknife: the liveCD is crap and no one uses it though, people only install with the minimal cd (~50MB)
mastertheknife: oh and don't use genkernel :)
sado1: well you can use practically any livecd or even an installed system, u need just all the build environment
sado1: systemrescuecd is nice choice
sado1: got everything in place, universal for 64 and 32 bits
bluekoala: You can use usb instead of cd, right?
sado1: you can set up new partition just for playing with gentoo and still use your ubuntu in the meantime
sado1: shouldn't be problem
sado1: yeah, systemrescuecd got usb version
mastertheknife: bluekoala: the great thing about gentoo is that its versionless (a rolling distro)
mastertheknife: you never need to upgrade, just to update all the time
bluekoala: How much time does that take per month?
sado1: and I hope you're not using some too outdated hardware
bluekoala: I thought outdated hardware would work best?
mastertheknife: i update once a week usually and it takes ~2 hours on my core2, i do it at night anyway
bluekoala: Just update with apt?
mastertheknife: even less than 2h sometimes
mastertheknife: portage.. not apt
mastertheknife: emerge --sync && emerge -auvDN world
sado1: every distro got its own package manager
mastertheknife: what a fool, lol
bluekoala: How do you create a package from source?
mastertheknife: bluekoala: you create an ebuild
mastertheknife: just like you can create a .deb
bluekoala: Yeah, but what's the ingredients?
bluekoala: Config files and libs?
mastertheknife: libs? you tell it the dependencies to pull
mastertheknife: config files um you put it inside
bluekoala: How much space you think I would need for gentoo?
sado1: more imo
sado1: well dunno really but 10 would be reasonable
sado1: I'd use 15 if I were you
bluekoala: I got 2TB unformatted in raid0
sado1: well, then why spare the disk space ;p
bluekoala: I'm thinking of using my file server
bluekoala: Though I need to replace the PSU and see if it still works lol
x-pilot: michaellarabel: Michael, are you here?
michaellarabel: x-pilot: Somewhat
x-pilot: michaellarabel: new ads system is awful :( http://dl.dropbox.com/u/996836/PhoronixAdsFail.png <--- Where is the close button?... [and I don't know Danish :-P...]
michaellarabel: It is no new ad system. That is a bug with our ad provider at the moment.
x-pilot: michaellarabel: but why didn't I noticed pop-unders before?..
michaellarabel: popunders? for US visitors you may get one pop-up-ish-type ad once every 36 hours or so
x-pilot: michaellarabel: oh, damn... pop-ups i meant, sorry :-/
Defense|Twin: Hi, to your Windows VS. Ubuntu power consumption test: i've made a different experience. With my Desktop-PC (Phenom II X4 965 and ATI HD4870) i had with Windows 7 210 Watts power consumption and with Gentoo 'only' 200 W (both with proprietarie ATI driver, Windows 7 Ultimate vs. KDE 4). Since i switched to the opensource ATI driver my power consumption raised but that didn't surprise me. I know a Desktop is something different than a Net
Defense|Twin: -/Notebook but that was my experience with Windows 7.
Ivanovic: Defense|Twin: don't forget that ubuntu was used in the test
Ivanovic: and ubuntu does run several services that might not be required by everyone
Ivanovic: plus as gentoo user you normally optimize your system to only run what you want and all the likes
Ivanovic: in case of ubuntu it was a default install (which tends to suck...)
NigeyUK: ok.. where did this new medal of honor pop up from? :|
Defense|Twin: Ivanovic: yes, maybe there should be a test about multiple distributions for example SuSE, Fedora, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Debian.
Ivanovic: Defense|Twin: i would prefer a test between "genuine" and "well setup" to show the difference you can easily achieve
Ivanovic: eg one significant change for laptops is wireless stuff
Ivanovic: there you normally got some lower energy modes, selecting those can save some power
Defense|Twin: Ivanovic: but thats pretty difficult... i managed my eeepc 701 from 20W down to 11W so and that was just a netbook with limited possbilities
Ivanovic: no idea which frequency governor was selected and no idea what was done regarding harddrive, powering down unused things, ...
Ivanovic: Defense|Twin: got my thinkpad x60t down to ~10w idle with wlan active
Defense|Twin: (11W -> wlan, display, sound off ;-)
Ivanovic: Defense|Twin: try to remove the usb1.1 module, that should save some power (was ~1W in my laptop)
mastertheknife: <3 Gentoo
Ivanovic: those 10 to 11W i have are with usable brightness and reading a website!
Defense|Twin: hehe yes maybe i hould just buy a new battery ;-)
Ivanovic: that is: wlan is active, sound is active (not playing anything though), display active at a level a little above minimum
Defense|Twin: Ivanovic: display dark to display off saved 2 watts for me
Ivanovic: like i said, my setup was a case of "usable system"
Ivanovic: the harddrive was of course spinned down
Defense|Twin: hm maybe the default installation idea ist better..
Defense|Twin: but it was impressing for me.. every mouse action costs energy...
Ivanovic: with activating stuff like shutting down sata links and *whatever* you can really get powerusage down a lot
Ivanovic: those are all things that tend to not be active by default
Ivanovic: Defense|Twin: remove the module for uhci/ohci and check the difference this makes
Ivanovic: was 1W in my system since due to removing this the cpu can reach lower powerstates
Defense|Twin: Ivanovic: software module?
Ivanovic: kernel module
Defense|Twin: hm k will try it later
Ivanovic: in general powertop is/was really helpful finding "offending" resources/programs
michaellarabel: x-pilot: What country are you located in when the ad problem is occuring?
mastertheknife: michaellarabel: I have the same problem, and i'm from israel
NigeyUK: meh this kind of attitude really sucks :(
NigeyUK: I wouldn't want Valve to waste resources on a non-existent market. Linux isn't meant for gaming, Windows games aren't meant for Linux. If you really want to be the super alternative Linux geek you'll have to take the drawbacks too.
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: why do you think Valve shouldn't make a linux client?
NigeyUK: oh i dont, thats not my post lol
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: Its even a better gaming platform than windows is
NigeyUK: im all for steam games on linux, have been since day 1 m8 :D:D
mastertheknife: Oh, who wrote that?
NigeyUK: err some **** on steam forums
NigeyUK: and goes on to say .... Go play Tux Racer and let us have our DX11 games properly developed and polished for one platform.
mastertheknife: You know, there are so many trolls in those forums
mastertheknife: I think people need to understand that Microsoft isn't what personal computing is all about
NigeyUK: full of them, i tend to stay away but after seeing the steam client stuff on phoronix i thought id see what the discussion was over there, full of closed minded idiots as usual
mastertheknife: Microsoft had monopoly with IE, have monopoly with windows, have monopoly with DirectX (by making the Xbox and Xbox 360 DirectX only) and the list goes on
mastertheknife: The only reason i keep writing stuff there is because i know Valve reads those forums
NigeyUK: all hail opengl .. period!
mastertheknife: you know
mastertheknife: Windows, Mac, Linux, Playstation 3, Wii, all support OpenGL
mastertheknife: If Playstation 3 and Wii existed back in 2004, valve would have probably coded its source engine in OpenGL
NigeyUK: yuhuh, and wasnt it linux that supported true 32 bit opengl first ?
mastertheknife: but back then only PS2 and Xbox existed, so they went with DirectX to make it easy to port games to the Xbox
NigeyUK: directX is so popular because devs can be lazy
NigeyUK: hence all the console to pc ports
NigeyUK: and vice versa
mastertheknife: Also, it costs money to release products that use DirectX
mastertheknife: while OpenGL is completely free
mastertheknife: (except for Nvidia and ATI that have to pay some money to OpenGL for implementing in the hardware)
NigeyUK: doesnt make sense does it, we need to lock some of these devs in a room with just opengl and say write a game, and i bet they can do it just as easily
mastertheknife: OpenGL 4.0 was meant to compete against DX12 which doesn't even exist then
maligor: uhhuh... I should think irix was the first to support 'true 32bit opengl'
mastertheknife: Microsoft is one smart company that wants monopoly. If the Xbox and Xbox 360 didn't exist, everyone would be writing OpenGL code now because its very portable, Mac, Linux, PS3, Wii, etc
maligor: since opengl was originally the graphics system from sgi
NigeyUK: maligor, i stand corrected, you are right!
mastertheknife: In 1997 Microsoft helped develop OpenGL, but quickly abandoned to make their own competiting product, called DirectX
NigeyUK: bleh @ M$ forever the monopoly making machine!
jrdnyquist: Quake came out in 96
jrdnyquist: wasn;t that opengl/
mastertheknife: Yep, its OpenGL
NigeyUK: yup quake was ogl and kicked ass on linux!
mastertheknife: The GoldSrc engine (half life1) is modified quake engine but its still an OpenGL engine, even though they added Direct3D support shortly later
maligor: and it never used opengl transformations
maligor: weird stuff
mastertheknife: You know, many game developers are going away from PCs
mastertheknife: their excuse is lots of piracy
maligor: it's rubbish too
mastertheknife: Yeah, many games lately are poor console ports
maligor: the console market is just more convenient
NigeyUK: yes, piracy is driving them to console only, which means more direct3d, which means more crap pc ports .. and so the vicious circle continues
mastertheknife: There is a GREAT article about this, let me find it
maligor: direct3d is hardly the reason for crappy console ports
NigeyUK: its a big factor though
maligor: no, it isn't
NigeyUK: i disagree, if they had to recode an entire game to shift it from console to pc, there wouldnt be as many
maligor: consoles are underpowered cheap embedded systems
maligor: with limited controls
NigeyUK: id agree with embedded but underpowered .. the ps3 has some serious processing power
mastertheknife: Actually consoles like the PS3 are much more powerful, the PS3 processor is very fast
mastertheknife: x86 is from the 70's, its ancient and slow
redeeman: the ps3 gpu is slow as fuck
redeeman: and it has no ram
redeeman: (the ps3 itself)
maligor: x86 isn't the same beast as the one in the 70s
redeeman: it may have alot of cores
NigeyUK: dam i knew someone would mention the lack of ram..lol
mastertheknife: it has 256MB fast 100 GB/s RDRAM and another 256MB for video
maligor: and I'm not a x86 fanboy, I'd love to have a better arch that ditched the rubbish in x86
redeeman: but how exactly does that work out in real life? how many games can just take X amounts of general purpose cores and make it run X times faster?
mastertheknife: but on the otherside, the PS3 processor and hardware is much more expensive, while the x86 is relatively cheap
maligor: but modern x86 cpu's are incredible pieces of hardware
redeeman: mastertheknife: wee, so it has 4x as fast ram as we do on the PC now, big whoop
maligor: umm.. ps3 is cheap hardware compared to modenr pc's
redeeman: maligor: yeah with sonys nice little gift of sending money with a ps3, sure
maligor: I'm sure you could make a very complex game for a console, but they never do
maligor: the console games are always incredibly dumbed down stuff
maligor: and it's nodoubt to increase sales
NigeyUK: and hideously expensive compared to a pc game
mastertheknife: They also spend more time on optimising the games for console, because its a lot easier than to optimize for different PC hardware
maligor: mastertheknife, not really a big issue
maligor: pc's are so much more powerful
maligor: quite a lot of console ports are just totally blotched ports
maligor: it's like they were: "Let's see if it compiles"
NigeyUK: either way .. i think steam client / games natively running on linux would be a huge cash cow for valve .. thats what it boils down to at the end of the day.
maligor: well, it might be a chance to grab a emerging market
mastertheknife: They hired both Mac and Linux engineers, so it will probably happen
NigeyUK: just read that mastertheknife .. fingers crossed :D:D
maligor: especially if they intend to sell the games on all platforms with one purchase
maligor: like they seem to do on mac
mastertheknife: Yeah no point in buying a game twice
mastertheknife: I wouldn't
mattgirv: How many new sales do you really think they'll see though?
mastertheknife: from Mac and Linux, 25%
NigeyUK: id hate to have to re-buy all my source games again for linux .. but i probably would if i had to lol
mattgirv: As positive as I think the move to other operating systems is, I really can't see much of a difference in sales compared to what they already see.
mastertheknife: Actually from Mac and Linux together, i think 30%
NigeyUK: id say 20-25%
mastertheknife: thats still a lot
mattgirv: Y'see, I don't think it will be that high. I mean is the share of machines running Linux and OSX even that high, let alone the amount that game on them?
NigeyUK: what would be interesting, would be to see how that figure effects windows os sales in a few years time
mastertheknife: I know Killing Floor is coming to Mac. Hopefully to linux too
mastertheknife: I bought that game and played it all the time from Windows because it runs slow under wine
NigeyUK: mattgirv, what you have to think about is how many people ditch linux, or simply just dont bother because of lack of gaming support, i think its a higher figure than we all think
r4: mastertheknife: any recent updates on the steam client? ive been MIA for a couple days
mattgirv: NigeyUK: Sure but they probably already game on Windows.
mastertheknife: r4: No :(
r4: i beleive the last thing we were running into was the friendsui bug
mattgirv: NigeyUK: I agree that it might attract more people to Linux, but I really struggle to see Valve gaining a major increase in sales from it.
mastertheknife: r4: but you can read this.. seems like it will happen: http://www.destructoid.com/valve-might-need-a-few-macintosh-and-linux-engineers-161797.phtml
NigeyUK: mattgirv, correct, but when the next new windows comes out, if i had a choice of that or linux to play my fav games .. theyve lost a sale there ..
NigeyUK: its a big knock on effect
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: Yeah, linux is getting easier and easier to use, especially with newbie oriented distros like Ubuntu and its variants. What holds Linux back is gaming, rebooting all the time to play a game is unconvient
mattgirv: NigeyUK: But as far as I am aware, the games are going to be cross-platform anyway, surely people would be buying these games anyway?
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, absolutely spot on, ok ubuntu has its critics, some say its to easy, to mac like, but its now an effective desktop os, its just needs game support!
mattgirv: Personally speaking anyway, I mean don't get me wrong I have systems that run nothing but Linux but my gaming machine will always have Windows on it sadly. I can't see everyone moving to OpenGL/Steam for distribution.
mastertheknife: mattgirv: No one said all windows games will move to linux or expected that. but we expect steam to give linux gaming a nice push
r4: mastertheknife: thats awesome!
NigeyUK: mattgirv, sadly that will be the case, but lets hope not forever, steam could just start the ball rolling and others join the bandwagon, or they could be the only ones daring enough and we are limited to just steam games, either way, it would be a huge step for linux and a positive step at that
mattgirv: Yeah definitely I agree. I have always felt though that Linux is a niche. As is OSX to some extent. A lot of people simply don't care about their operating system 'as long as it works'. I have always been interested in alternate OS's, and that is why I became interested in Linux in the first place.
r4: i think if valve shows there is a good market for linux games...others will follow
r4: thats just how business works
mattgirv: Yeah I think having the platform for distribution available will be a positive thing, regardless of the eventual outcome.
mastertheknife: Think of someone that has an old computer that can't play a new Valve game of his desire, he goes out and buys a new computer, and from the money he saved on buying Windows he can buy better hardware\more games
mastertheknife: on not buying Windows*, my bad
NigeyUK: r4 agreed, i think also the fact that its Valve, and steam .. its become a very big deal, their games are generally extremely popular, and its without doubt the best distribution system there is for games .. theres alot of excitement around.
mattgirv: But most Windows sales are part of OEM, unless somehow Ubuntu or some other distribution can start persuading manufacturers to start offering Linux machines as a serious alternative, people will still end up on Windows.
NigeyUK: mattgirv, i have a feeling, ubuntu may manage that a few releases down the line
r4: well linux needs to be able to run from nothing but a mouse click
r4: for that to happen mattgirv
mastertheknife: mattgirv: that is already happening, especially with netbooks
r4: i heard they stopped that
r4: cuz so many were getting sent back
ianto: r4: To be fair logging into a GNOME session isn't that difficult from a login screen
mattgirv: mastertheknife: Yeah, but it has happened in the past as well. Albeit Linux is easier to use now, but it tends to come and go in spikes.
mastertheknife: I remember when i went searching for a netbook, i saw two versions of the Acer Aspire One, one windows XP home Sp3, and one linux
NigeyUK: ianto, lol !
r4: ianto: im referring to OS features and customizing them
r4: normal ppl dont like conf files :)
maligor: r4, ye gods, you can customize windows and mac?
ianto: Luckilly Ubuntu has that "System" menu for the ones who like a GUI then ;)
mattgirv: r4: Heh the way Ubuntu is going, I don't think Ubuntu users like the idea either, or at least Canonical don't.
maligor: since most windows and mac customizations are rubbish
ianto: Instead of right clicking desktops or going through a huge control panel
NigeyUK: ill be honest, i put ubuntu 10.04 on here a few days ago, and bar gaming, i havent missed windows yet, a few bugs / issues but only minor, and only had to terminal twice ..
mastertheknife: Personally i hate how Ubuntu looks, looks like Alien OS to me with the menu at the top and i think it should have been released with KDE instead of Gnome but thats me
r4: maligor: yeah with a shell replacement...lol blackbox4win anyone? :P
mattgirv: r4: Heh, been there once.
mattgirv: r4: A long long long time ago
r4: its why im on linux now :)
maligor: I tried the shell replacements once
maligor: they were worse than the explorer shell for using windows
mattgirv: maligor: Yep, of course.
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, i've not tried kubuntu 10.04 yet, but the 9.10 rls on the laptop jus seemed bloated to me
r4: they're a bit better now
r4: they're usable
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: you might want to try Gentoo :)
mattgirv: I don't think they're really needed now though, I have no problems with Windows as it is. It is just nice having alternatives, that's all.
r4: or arch
r4: arch is nice if you dont like to compile a ton :)
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: you learn a lot about linux and its inner workings just by installing Gentoo, its just you, the terminal and the gentoo handbook
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, when i get a weekend free ive promised myself to give it a go, im still recovering from 2 weeks on a LFS system i was fiddling with lol
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: installing Gentoo with X, KDE4 and OpenOffice shouldnt take more than 2 days on core2 machine
x-pilot: mastertheknife: but KDE loads slower :-P
NigeyUK: excellent :D if it rains sunday i may give it a whirl then
mattgirv: mastertheknife: Thing is, I don't think it is entirely necessary now. I mean on an older system sure there were some benefits. Machines are so fast now you'd be hard pushed to notice any difference at all.
NigeyUK: meant to be finishing the garden .. bleh..lol
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: :) make sure to not use the LiveCD, no one really installs Gentoo that way, only the minimal cd, and don't use genkernel
mattgirv: mastertheknife: And there are plenty of 'barebones' distributions out there, aside from Gentoo, for building a system up to your own specifications.
mastertheknife: mattgirv: I just love Portage :)
mattgirv: mastertheknife: Fair enough, :)
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, cheers for the tip, ill write a postit now because i'll probably forget! lol
mastertheknife: sure.. :)
mastertheknife: NigeyUK: whats your nick in steam forums?
NigeyUK: NigeyUK .. i dont think ive ever posted there .. i'd get banned for putting people in their place for spouting so much ****
mastertheknife: have you seen the Mac OS thread
mastertheknife: its such a spam fest "I go to school in 5min.. what a boring day yaya 2 days left"
mattgirv: Well in all fairness, what do you expect. It isn't even out yet and I'd imagine all the 'hacking' type posts and threads would be moderated anyway.
mattgirv: Though I don't really get all the garbage with people posting massive symbols :p
mastertheknife: I feel like posting in that thread with a pengiun eating an apple picture but i'll get so flamed to death
NigeyUK: i dont get half the people on those forums, strange lot i tell ya
r4: do it mastertheknife :)
mattgirv: NigeyUK: Well it's hardly GameFAQs. I'm sure it could be much much worse, though I don't want to imagine it :)
NigeyUK: where did the 12th may come from as an osx release date for steam?
mastertheknife: rbariss said it
mastertheknife: (valve developer)
mastertheknife: he reads and replies in that thread
NigeyUK: so if osx is the 12th, and theyve leaked the linux client aswell .. hmmm
mattgirv: NigeyUK: Hm, I really imagine they'd test the waters before they even announce anything let alone release a Linux client too.
NigeyUK: that's what im thinking, maybe theyve developed in parallel with the osx client, but intentionally leaked the linux files to test the waters a bit ..
mastertheknife: You know, the fact that they haven't put up updated files (still files from 10th March) in the manifest doesn't mean they aren't working on the client. Maybe they are working on the client and not releasing to avoid people messing with the files like when people tried to login to the mac one without beta accounts
NigeyUK: valve know there's alot of hardcore gamers that develop and hack linux, what better way to find / fix / document some bits of the linux client, saves going public..
mattgirv: I'd just wait and see really. Who knows what will happen with Valve.
mastertheknife: hacking happens on any platform not just linux
mattgirv: mastertheknife: So? Lol that wasn't my point at all
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, possibly .. as mattgirv just said, lets wait and see, either way, good news i think, lets hope its not a white elephant again thats all, although unlikely.
mattgirv: Oh nm
mastertheknife: It will come.. its not worth adding OpenGL support to the Source engine just for Mac
NigeyUK: so true! ;)
mattgirv: mastertheknife: I dunno, there are a hell of a lot of MacBooks out there :p
mastertheknife: in the US there are more Mac users than Linux users, but worldwide Mac is way less popular
NigeyUK: also, if your going to such lengths to add support for ogl, make the most of it
maligor: mastertheknife, depends
mattgirv: mastertheknife: It's hard to really judge that properly since Apple switched to C2D.
maligor: linux is ubiquitous
maligor: most people are using linux without knowing it ;P
Gnurdux: mastertheknife, uhhhh
Gnurdux: " its not worth adding OpenGL support to the Source engine just for Mac"
Gnurdux: Blizzard does it
NigeyUK: weren't they working on a linux client to, but stopped ?
mattgirv: I think the issue has more to do with support.
Gnurdux: there are persistent rumors
Gnurdux: that Blizzard has an internal linux client
NigeyUK: ahh i knew i heard something about blizzard and linux
Gnurdux: but no plans on it being released
Gnurdux: in the US there are more Mac users than Linux users, but worldwide Mac is way less popular
Gnurdux: i think there are still significantly fewer Linux users than Mac users total :(
mattgirv: It is a lot easier to support software on a static system like OSX than it is with a Linux distribution with 1000s of combinations of configurations and so on. Not that it is too difficult, just more difficult.
NigeyUK: that is the advantage of osx tbh, the fact you have very few combinations of hardware to support.
mattgirv: Coupled with the small userbase, I imagine most of the time for both of those reasons most companies just don't bother.
mastertheknife: mattgirv: maybe thats why Valve went with Mac first, because its easier
mattgirv: NigeyUK: That and I also mean the OS itself. I mean Linux is modular and package versions vary from distro to distro, and progress rapidly. Apple controls the deployment for most of the 'core' packages for OSX.
mastertheknife: Gnurdux: I should have said that its not worth adding OpenGL support to the Source engine and porting so many games including non Source based games such as Killing floor
NigeyUK: mattgirv, dont get me started on apples control methods! lol
mattgirv: NigeyUK: Heh, whatever you may think it is more consistent. It's just the nature of a commercial operating system.
NigeyUK: i guess, that and the fact steve jobs is a complete nutjob ?
ianto: NigeyUK: Nice article :)
NigeyUK: yeah i thought that was very interesting
NigeyUK: surprised any mac owners have any cash left after buying 1 mind .. lol
CME: sadly, even if valve release steam + source engine for linux, we will never get garrys mod for linux :(
NigeyUK: just give me l4d 2, cs:s and alot of foood and coffee .. 1 happy linux gamer :D
NigeyUK: this comment from engadget has a very good point ..
NigeyUK: What's the point of focusing on OS X? Macs don't even have good video cards. A linux box can use whatever video card you want without a $2500 base price Mac Pro, which would STILL need a video card upgrade.
NigeyUK: not how i'd have worded it, but it gets the brain ticking :)
kloplop321: The integrated ones in the latest iMacs are decent(not for gaming), not the best of the latest selection, but they work well.
mattgirv: CME: How come?
mattgirv: Just the post-processing effects or something?
NigeyUK: kloplop321, whats the minimum spec card now on a mac?
kloplop321: no clue, I just know that Cube 2 works well on it from personal experience at my school.
NigeyUK: ohh.. actually im gonna check
mattgirv: NigeyUK: All the MacBook Pro's have pretty decent cards, so I'd be surprised if the Mac Pro's weren't equally specced.
kloplop321: the mac pros are outdated in graphics hardware
kloplop321: (outdated in terms of not the latest, for what you are paying for)
CME: mattgirv, garry is a bigger microsoft fanboy than steve ballmer, he even refuses to release linux server bins, just tells that if you want to open a garrys mod server you should choose windows or fuckup, etc
NigeyUK: true mac pros specwise are pretty good but dam, a 21" imac only has a gf 9400m :|
NigeyUK: grr 21"*
mattgirv: CME: Ah, well frankly the way Garrys Mod works, servers are a bloody nightmare anyway at the best of times.
kloplop321: wth, garry is that lame?
NigeyUK: i hard that before about garrys mod, always wondered why no linux server binaries
mattgirv: You can still host a Garrys Mod server though surely
mattgirv: Can't be that hard.
mattgirv: * on Linux
CME: yeah with wine, but.....
CME: last time i tried, yes, buggy and slow :|
mattgirv: I'm surprised, can you not use the regular HL2DS and load it as a mod?
CME: afaik nope
mattgirv: Fair enough.
mastertheknife: Wow, why garry is that lame?
mastertheknife: Interesting article about pc game piracy and developer excuses for PC gaming losing sales: http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
NigeyUK: mastertheknife, i think this sums up things nicely ...
NigeyUK: If this Linux client turns out to be real, Valve will effectively own the Linux gaming delivery market. Big-name publishers are used to Steam and trust Steam. Valve making a Steam client for Linux is also telling the industry that Linux gaming is something worthwhile.
mattgirv: mastertheknife: Makes sense, it is much worse from a consoles perspective when they rely on games to make up for the loss they make on the hardware.
NigeyUK: and on that note, my take away is due soon so off for some food :D
aliendude3500: Hey guys... check this out -- Linux users chose to spend more money on games than Windows users in a fundraiser -- http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux-users-contribute-twice-as-much-as-Windows-users
xeer0: Hi! Anyone know how to enable sound over HDMI with opensource drivers for ati hd 2400 pro in ubuntu 9.04?
Sarto: go to hdmi
Sarto: CRANK IT UP
kloplop321: loves the linux crowd
Sarto: loves linux