Phoronix IRC Log: 2009-02-15
SlickMcRunfast: Requesting World of Goo Review
veckt_: hello. i'm using fedora and i have the "AMD unsupported hardware" logo problem: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15192
veckt_: the problem can be solved by extracting some files from old catalyst packages... how do i get old packages? sorry, i'm kinda new to linux
rski: want to help an old fart out with getting starcraft to run
rski: i need to force X into 8bit.
rski: but even if i try 16 it just goes bonkers and won't start
Kano: michaellarabel: http://debian.org/News/2009/20090214
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?p=62944#post62944
bartmon: I'm just installing the universe test-suite, which is i guess every test. How much spae does it all take up?
bartmon: space even
Ivanovic: many gigabyte, >10 that is
bartmon: Yeah, i looked at a couple of universe benches on global and saw many games on the list so i just cancelled the download
bartmon: i have an issue with test sunflow. It never completes and i think that happens because during installation there was a complaint "No installation script found for java-environment"
bartmon: and since sunflow is written in java i guess it'srequired
bartmon: does PTS use the system JRE?
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: you should know the answer for bartmon
michaellarabel: bartmon: System JRE it should install, yes. Try: phoronix-test-suite force-install sunflow
bartmon: Now it complains about "No installation script found for java-environment". BTW, I have both sun-java5-jre and sun-java6-jre installed.
bartmon: Well it's the same error as before. Let me add tgat I've installed PTS from the .deb file posted on the site.
michaellarabel: There should be no installation script for java-environment
pan_: can Phoronix Test Suite be ported to windows?
Azerthoth: in theory
Kano: cygwin maybe
pan_: but i see there is php cli for windows
Kano: well it uses also shell scripting
Kano: so you could try cgywin environment
pan_: oh yeah......
Kano: maybe it works for some compile benchmarks
pan_: yeah but performance testing and cygwin....i don't know.....
Kano: you want it, not me ;)
Kano: more interesting would be 3d tests
cxo: just died in LVMs arms
Kano: but then you would have to detect windows a bit better
michaellarabel: pan_: If you felt like submitting patches that abstracted all of the shell-scripting into a new PTS script :)
cxo: i was so close to totally fuking up my entire system
Kano: and change scripts to use the win executeable. should work for some games which provide both
Kano: old lvm + kernel 2.6.27+ was no joy ;)
mo0n_sniper: michaellarabel, well windows scripting it's not as good as linux scripting ;)
Kano: you basically have to update the complete os in order to use a newer lvm as you have build-deps down to libc6 2.4+
Kano: no joy..
michaellarabel: mo0n_sniper: Though a majority of the PTS scripting is all very basic
mo0n_sniper: Kano, also the 3d performance difference would make the users cry
mo0n_sniper: michaellarabel, if pts would run on windows then it would be the best benchmarking software around
Kano: mo0n_sniper: depends, on my own benchmarks some years ago games like doom3 did not force AF or AA correctly when specified in the game
maligor: maybe it'd work with Windows Services for Unix :P
Kano: mo0n_sniper: but that fault was only in the linux binary. so when you dont force it via driver overrides then Linux was definitely faster
michaellarabel: mo0n_sniper: I have no objections to accepting patches that would add clean Windows support, though I probably wouldn't write the support myself unless there was corporate interest.
Kano: so when you want to compare both, then you need to look into those issues as well
Kano: after forceing linux was 5% slower with nvidia, forgetable
mo0n_sniper: michaellarabel, it was only a indea ,I don't think i'm up for the task
Kano: but i guess fglrx would really drop more *g*
mo0n_sniper: :) yeah
mo0n_sniper: hope the new linux graphics overhaul will bring something......
maligor: what new linux graphics overhaul?
Kano: mo0n_sniper: when you use nvidia this does not matter at all
mo0n_sniper: you know like always the next big thing it's just around the corner
maligor: none of them will mean much to binary drivers
michaellarabel: Though maybe after PTS 2.0 when I start running out of ideas for new major features, I'll consider Windows support for the heck of it.
Kano: maligor: partly correct. fglrx does not replace that much as nvidia does
Kano: nvidia is really more radical ;)
mo0n_sniper: :) then i'll hope you run out of ideas :)
Kano: maligor: only the mesa opengl lib is replaced, rest are addon files for fglrx
Kano: compare that to nvidia ;)
maligor: actually ati ships a modified MESA libGL
mo0n_sniper: i remember installind linux to a friend with nvidia a year ago
maligor: or it's suspiciously close to mesa if it isn't :P
mo0n_sniper: everything worked compiz , wine, video ,native games....
mo0n_sniper: good for them because they got the job done
Kano: maligor: nvidia replace libglx.so + libGLcore.so too. i guess that prevents lots of abi breakages
maligor: Kano, you mean add
Kano: i mean replace
maligor: libGLcore doesn't exist
Kano: 102: /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libGLcore.so
maligor: true for libglx.so tho
Kano: thats in the log
maligor: I don't have that
Kano: -> /var/lib/nvidia/log
maligor: yes, I realize
maligor: but it's a new nvidia file, not a replacement
maligor: ati has similiar stuff also
Kano: nope, the backup files are stored in /var/lib/nvidia
Kano: maligor: that not replaced, thats added
maligor: You have searched for paths that end with libGLcore in suite sid, all sections, and all architectures. Sorry, your search gave no results
Kano: /usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libGLcore.so is in xserver-xorg-core
redeeman: nvidia does not provide libglcore here
redeeman: or well
maligor: maligor@purplemist:~$ dpkg -L xserver-xorg-core | grep libGLcore
redeeman: not in extensions
Kano: dpkg -L xserver-xorg-core | grep libGLcore
maligor: well, I'm running 1.5 tho
Kano: maligor: sid has no 1.5
maligor: Kano, you are correct
maligor: I wonder why it's vanished from experimental
redeeman: i just hope nvidia will fix their instabilities soon
Kano: maligor: but experimental has 1.6
maligor: yeah, I'm stuck between
maligor: experimental had 1.5
Kano: well xserver 1.6 does not have got that file
Kano: but what i want to say is that nvidia replaces 3 not only 1 file
maligor: neither did 1.5
Kano: and does not have got so many abi issues
maligor: they have the same abi issues as fglrx
Kano: for fglrx you get new precompiled binarys for every abi step and older "half compatible" abi changes are not supported at all
Kano: the nvidia installer is small, every extra abi for fglrx makes the installer about 20 mb bigger
Kano: in 5 years it will be 200 mb then ;)
Kano: or 300
maligor: they could make a reconstructor
maligor: or binary diffs
redeeman: i remember years ago, i downloaded fglrx, it was 120mb
redeeman: then they cleaned up, and it became ~30mb
redeeman: but it's still ridicoules
Kano: even lzma compression would save about 49 %
maligor: what about adobe reader for linux?
redeeman: i fortunately never downloaded that garbage
cxo: i remember that
Kano: redeeman: it was never 120 mb
redeeman: Kano: i believe it was
cxo: i remember it being 94mb
Kano: redeeman: nope
redeeman: Kano: it was certainly 100mb+
redeeman: and i remember making a big fuss about it on irc, laughing my ass off
cxo: i even email ati about that
cxo: asking them why it was twice the size of the nvidia drivers
redeeman: it's obscene
Kano: use --extract then you know it ;)
redeeman: you can run fucking entire linux systems taking up less space
Kano: you can expect it growing in april or may by 20 mb again ;)
redeeman: i just made an embedded dist ~8mb
Kano: i have a script that can change the ati intaller, remove all unneeded archs, compress with lzma with lzmadec static embeeded
redeeman: that reminds me, anyone that has a good C benchmark? preferrably testing both cpu and linux performance
Kano: ati 8-7 32 bit only stripped down to 14 mb
Kano: redeeman: time on linux compile ;)
redeeman: im afraid i didn't bother giving the box it's own toolchain
Kano: nvidia drivers are 13-14 mb for 32 bit too. so basically they are same size when you compress em correctly ;)
Kano: nvidia with lzma is no big gain btw. maybe 1-2 mb
redeeman: they probably encrypt their driver
redeeman: Kano: i wrote a small hanoi solver, and that box, at 130mhz, is 32 times slower than amd64 2ghz
Kano: well when you do objdump on nvidia you will not get anything readable, fglrx can be read like a book ;)
Kano: what i dont get is that there are libs for h264 acc inside the fglrx package,but no header files at all
redeeman: it's probably horribly broken
redeeman: so broken that they don't even bother letting people try it
Kano: they hide the headers for use ;)
redeeman: though that still doesn't explain why they ship it
redeeman: amd is impossible to deal with
Kano: the dont need to ship the binary when the dont want to use it...
redeeman: i told them like... almost a year ago, to remove the text saying that the 64bit drivers requires 32bit emulation to install and/or work
redeeman: nothing has happened
Kano: i have got nothing about 32 bit libs, i install em anyways in a 64 bit install to let some games which are binary only work
redeeman: i have a chroot for 32bit stuff
redeeman: i don't want my 64bit environment polluted
redeeman: besides, it's NOT required
redeeman: they should not write that it is
Kano: but for games you need the 32 bit mesa lib
redeeman: .... to be in the chroot
Kano: well that lib needs to be replaced anyway
redeeman: yes, and that's perfectly fine
redeeman: but the 64bit driver does NOT need the 32bit driver
Kano: i guess that was a linking failure
redeeman: imagine this:
redeeman: you have a 64bit no-multilib install on 1 partition
redeeman: a 32bit on another
redeeman: what I want, is to be able to install ONLY 64bit stuff on my 64bit install
redeeman: and then install the 32bit driver on the 32bit install
Kano: i guess they fixed this issue
redeeman: the issue is ONLY in the documentation
redeeman: which SAYS 64bit driver must have 32bit emul packages
Kano: maybe ccc is 32 bit only ,dont know
redeeman: which it does not require
redeeman: this causes certain distribution maintainers to make the packages depend on 32bit emul stuff
redeeman: making it block on 64bit only profile
redeeman: because "upstream says so"
redeeman: so i request AMD stop being morons and write proper dependency list
redeeman: but they refuse
Kano: well a standard user wants that 32 bit apps work with this 64 bit os
redeeman: yes yes, and standard users won't be affected at all
Kano: therefore suse started with extremely doubled libs
Kano: they had everything twice basically...
redeeman: but i am not a standard user, i want this nonstandard config, and i cant easily because amd writes it shouldn't be done
redeeman: it's bascially the reason i didn't buy an AMD card :P
Kano: well the problem are not the amd cards
Kano: you can put em into the dustbin if you dont like em
redeeman: if their support chain cant even change a simple text, i don't even want to think about other things
Kano: but the problem are the laptops
Kano: you can not replace the card only the full system
redeeman: morale to the story: avoid AMD like the plague
Kano: i can not avoid it
Kano: my pci-e cards died from ati (only x700 cards, no real loss anyway)
Kano: i have to provide support for em
redeeman: i weap for you
Kano: maybe i build a agp system again to use my last 9800 pro card with it..
Kano: did not get a pci-e ati card yet
redeeman: my laptop has 9700 pro
Kano: and of course i will not pay for it
Kano: for basic test i find users with ssh login for me ;)
Kano: then i do not need to worry about exchanging cards, works until major faults are in the driver
redeeman: we can only hope intel comes around with larrabee and hurts amd/nvidia badly
redeeman: maybe then they will care
Kano: well intel gma 500 sucks badly
redeeman: but that's not an intel created thing either
redeeman: amd still has a chance though
Kano: they should not licence that crap...
redeeman: if they manage to make the R700 stuff work soon
redeeman: Kano: agreed, but as i hear, it was a mistake
redeeman: done by management without talking to developers
RobbieAB: AMD are doomed, the voices on the net say so...
redeeman: imagination technologies are really the worst bunch of morons ever to be on this earth
mo0n_sniper: ok I'm off, michaellarabel maybe you could see if there is any interes in a windows port of pts
Kano: RobbieAB: maybe ati oss is the last change for users before ati dies ;)
redeeman: amd does seem to be a bunch of wusses
RobbieAB: Kano: Did I forget to add the sarcasm tags? ;)
RobbieAB: nVidia will always have a competitor, Intel will always have a competitor...
redeeman: i believe AMD could have advanced the open drivers much faster, much cheaper
Kano: well without oss drivers there would be no drivers for em sooner or later
RobbieAB: It's the nature of the game, the monopoly stagnates without competition until competition returns.
Kano: amd wants to sell the factories already, because they really need money
Kano: next stell i to sell amd to nvidia as they want to produce x86 cpus
RobbieAB: So? Who said AMD would be the competitor to either company?
Kano: but they dont need ati gpus
Kano: nvidia bought some patents from transmeta already
redeeman: mismanagement really kills otherwise healthy companies
Kano: i guess they want to produce something for the increasing netbook market
Kano: because intel is no good player ;) next netbook gpu will be integrated into the cpu
Kano: and that means the 9400m would be useless
RobbieAB: notes which company is further along with the merging CPU and GPU
redeeman: Kano: i hear intel is shrinking gma 950 and integrating with atom
Kano: yes, that means the external nvidia design is not optimal...
RobbieAB: Why do you think AMD acquired ATI?
redeeman: so they are really doing it? it wasnt just rumors?
Kano: well if i would be nvidia i would provide arm gpu+nvidia gpu on one chip as first step and then try to get a x86 licence
Kano: their top chips are already much more integrated than intel i7,so that should be no big deal
RobbieAB: Kano: not worth it, ARM+GPU can't compete in the netbook market easily, due to the inability to run winXP
redeeman: fuck x86
redeeman: m$ can just fuck themselves and provide an OS for ARM
RobbieAB: Not going to happen.
Kano: RobbieAB: use it as smartphone then
redeeman: no netbook manufacturer has the guys
Kano: a smartphone that can run little 3d games
RobbieAB: Kano: fine, which immediately cuts you of from the critical market.
redeeman: but if they did, they would win massively
redeeman: it could have significantly better battery time
RobbieAB: The key here is legacy software, x86 legacy runs happily enough on any current netbook.
Kano: RobbieAB: you know that iphone is using arm core?
redeeman: lol, nobody cares about legacy software on netbooks
Kano: think of iphone 3d
redeeman: they do have the power to severely hurt m$ with it
RobbieAB: Kano: I do, and I know the iPhone is not playing in the netbook market.
Kano: RobbieAB: not yet
RobbieAB: redeeman: wrong, I know a LOT of people who care about the "legacy" software.
redeeman: not on netbooks
Kano: the chips will be really similar soon
RobbieAB: redeeman: especially on the netbooks.
redeeman: Kano: a new arm cortex 8/9 destroys the iphones arm
RobbieAB: netbooks are cheap and portable, if they can run MS Office, they are good.
redeeman: lol they don't nee m$ office
redeeman: they can use openoffice all fine
RobbieAB: redeeman: Problem here is too many changes at once
redeeman: not really
RobbieAB: Yes really.
redeeman: first generation netbook has went all fine with linux
redeeman: if they suddenly had 2-3 times the battery life
redeeman: with better fitted applications
redeeman: it would be much better for 99% of the users
RobbieAB: Yes, first gen had Linux, but targetted the consumer market.
RobbieAB: The big netbook prize is the business market, which is a lot harder to steal.
RobbieAB: In work, I see the following apps as being the key: MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite, ...
redeeman: lol that's crap
redeeman: nobody can do adobe crapwork on a netbook
redeeman: and even if they could
RobbieAB: Get them on Linux and ARM, and I can sell 200 netbooks in a week.
redeeman: they shouldn't
RobbieAB: Why not?
redeeman: lol 200 is nothing
redeeman: because the netbook is too small to get productive
RobbieAB: That's the entire College ;)
Kano: well ubuntu 9.04 will support arm netbooks
redeeman: the netbook is there to CONSUME stuff
redeeman: not create it
RobbieAB: redeeman: so? Docking station set-up?
RobbieAB: Problem solved.
redeeman: dockingstation is SO 1990
Kano: dont know where to download the needed flashplayer however,but as the iphone has one... there must be a player somewhere ;)
RobbieAB: It's still a major part of the office environment.
RobbieAB: Small laptop, big screen on desk.
redeeman: lol dockingstations are out
redeeman: im a consultant, i regularly go onsite
redeeman: and people are throwing docking stations out
redeeman: it's an extremely rare event seeing one
RobbieAB: Well, I see people using them with smaller laptops.
Kano: netbooks are mainly for surfing the web, watching videos on youtube has to work, mail and maybe change a document with openoffice. would be nice if some games would work however...
RobbieAB: Kano: that is the consumer (domestic) netbook.
redeeman: lol screw youtube
RobbieAB: The business one is a VERY different beast.
Kano: redeeman: when you can nto watch it you can not sell any netbook ;)
RobbieAB: Business netbook: A SMALL laptop.
redeeman: Kano: i already have
Kano: a netbook?
RobbieAB: With a modern CPU it can run all the apps it needs to, drive a projector, and slip into the hanbag
redeeman: i've resold some eee's
Kano: but youcan watch youtube
redeeman: Kano: not the way I configured them
Kano: bad boy ;)
redeeman: it's called good customer service
Kano: well firefox find the plugin itself usually
redeeman: it fails to install
redeeman: i made sure
Kano: really bad boy ;)
RobbieAB: Anyway, it's way past my bedtime, so I'm off...
Kano: do you know that debians gnome meta package installs an opensource swf plugin?
Kano: as real dependency, not even a suggest or recommend
redeeman: abominable behavior
Kano: really stupid, as you have to disable it in iceweasel then
redeeman: i don't install gnome
Kano: swfdec-mozilla is a dependency
Kano: i dont like that, you have to kick on every flash to run it
Kano: and it is not fully compatible
avazhang: hi all, can somebody here tell me how to merge the results in different machines into one picture?
avazhang: Something like the picture on this webpage http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_shanghai_opensolaris&num=2
DaSkreech: hi guys
DaSkreech: Can someone tell me what AMD Dragon is?