Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-12-30
nemesix: hello all
vital: just noticed: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1882835 nv driver 180.18
vital: sorry, I should be quiet :P I read 180.16 on the phoronix website, but it was already 180.18 .. sorry
Daskreech: Can anyone say what use the source code provided by VIA at http://linux.via.com.tw is for X devs?
Daskreech: I know there was a resounding "meh" when the site was put up has anything improved?
RobbieAB: Daskreech: the openchrome guys are getting some use out of it.
Daskreech: RobbieAB: Ok as I understand it this will be going into mainline kernel?
RobbieAB: yeah, not sure how much of the kernel stuff is the recent drop, or the first one ages ago
RobbieAB: But the Via FB for the Chrome9 cards is in 2.6.28
Daskreech: Alright. What I would like clear is is this a one time drop for VIA or are they working with OpenChrome for the future. Do they have an resources put to this project?
RobbieAB: Supposedly they are working with openchrome, how much this will last is still to be seen
Daskreech: Ok thanks that was my take on it as well
RobbieAB: It probably depends how the current drop works out, and how happy the vendor who leant on them is.
Daskreech: If they last for two more kernel releases I'll ease up on hate for them
RobbieAB: If it's what I suspect, it will last...
Daskreech: What is your suspicion ?
RobbieAB: My suspicion is some OEM vendor basically made a working OSS driver a requirement for a deal.
RobbieAB: This would also answer the question of "Where is the Nano?"
Daskreech: Hopefully who ever is in on it makes it palatable for them to WANT to continue
RobbieAB: *cough* Do the math... How many big OEMs are shipping VIA netbooks? ;)
Daskreech: no I get your idea for the pressure. I'm saying the open source devs
RobbieAB: maligor: and does it ship with a Linux flavor?
Daskreech: Hopefully they make this work in a way that is amicable and consistently point out where they gain wins so that if that pressure falls down VIA will WANT to continue
RobbieAB: And is the MS flavor getting any votes of popularity?
maligor: Yes, it does
maligor: HP 2133
RobbieAB: I have one ;)
RobbieAB: The Vista install is unusably painful
RobbieAB: The Novell one got slammed in reviews too.
Daskreech: prods eythian with a openchrome fork
maligor: I just install debian on everything
Daskreech: How capable are the VIA parts?
RobbieAB: Daskreech: If it falls away, the openchrome devs will probably continue anyway.
maligor: the HP 1000 Mini MIE might be interesting tho
Daskreech: Yes but having new docs and hints about code paths is helpful
eythian: hullo Daskreech :)
maligor: I think it's intel atom tho
maligor: but the linux interface it has
Daskreech: the AMD doc drop yesterday is a good example as well
maligor: of what?
maligor: they didn't actually drop any docs
maligor: I mean example of what
RobbieAB: Daskreech: I think the openchrome devs reckon they can get the chrome9 fully supported with what they have
maligor: the r600/r700 drop is code
Daskreech: Of continued support from a hardware manufacturer
Daskreech: Oh. I read it wrong then :)
maligor: they're supposed to release some docs also soon
maligor: it's just sample code now tho
maligor: like how to draw triangles ect
RobbieAB: The sample code IS the docs really...
maligor: and EXA acceleration for radeonhd
Daskreech: Ah ok I had read this documentation also comes with code and thought that meant they came at the same time
RobbieAB: They had hoped to add a bit more documentation, but that is stuck in review
RobbieAB: But the code itself is a massive doc
Daskreech: So nVidia is the last major holdout of 3D without open support ?
RobbieAB: Um. Via aren't exactly a major 3D...
maligor: nvidia and intel are the only ones who would classify
Daskreech: Well as I mentioned before (outside this chan) My friend can play WOW on her VIA chip but she can't boot into Ubuntu with it
RobbieAB: AMD/ATI as well
Daskreech: That's 3D enough
Daskreech: And poor enough support for linux :-P
RobbieAB: Or more probably, poor Ubuntu kernel...
Daskreech: maligor: And AMD
Daskreech: RobbieAB: They stopped shipping the VIA driver and only had openchrome I think
Daskreech: Worked in Hardy didn't in Ibex
Daskreech: In any case she wants to WOW :)
RobbieAB: Sounds right.
RobbieAB: And it is a mistake to force a happy windows user to use Linux
Daskreech: no she's a happy linux user. She's just also a happy WOWer
RobbieAB: Ah, ok
Daskreech: She does GIMP and OO.o Lesson plans etc
Daskreech: Quite comfortable in Linux
RobbieAB: Which Via doesn't boot Ubuntu for her?
RobbieAB: The HP 2133 boots Linux no problem for me.
Daskreech: I don't know she called me about 15 minutes ago to say she bought a new motherboard
Daskreech: She's going to swap them out later
RobbieAB: Oh, ok.
RobbieAB: It's worth checking, if it's not just Ubuntu, it would be nice to know
Daskreech: strokes chin thinking about not mentioning VIA support in new kernels and "obtaining' that board
Daskreech: She tried Fedora as well but I think that might have been a Grub problem more than Kernel
RobbieAB: That is possible. If it's an old board...
Daskreech: I'm looking into getting a new MB myself since I think I just fried my proc
Daskreech: Want a Spider AMD with Splashstart on it :)
RobbieAB: is planning to get a new mobo
RobbieAB: And a new CPU
RobbieAB: wants a Tyan Tomcat
Daskreech: Tyan still makes stuff?
Daskreech: They had some crazy boards back in the day
Daskreech: MMMMM :)
RobbieAB: Come on, stick to sensible kit...
Daskreech: Sorry I can't help it :) Tyan makes some crazy High end boards
RobbieAB: They still are highend.
RobbieAB: Why do you think I want a tyan board
RobbieAB: I would skimp on the CPU for the MoBo...
Daskreech: I was looking at http://www.tyan.com/product_board_detail.aspx?pid=169
Daskreech: Yeah that's exactly how I felt about Tyan back in the days
Daskreech: I could get less RAM and CPU power and afford the Motherboard...
RobbieAB: get the -e version of that board...
Daskreech: I don't get it what makes yours a dashE model ?
RobbieAB: the presence of the -E at the end of the number...
RobbieAB: It's basically a slight upgrade to the one you posted, with a whole bunch of extra functionality...
RobbieAB: Specifically, it can handle the DPPM in the newest AMD chips
RobbieAB: So it has better power management.
Daskreech: Defective Part per million?
RobbieAB: Basically, it can clock the cores separately in the multi-core chips
Daskreech: Isn't that DDPM ? :)
RobbieAB: Yes, but I can't type
Daskreech: Didn't Intel have this already?
RobbieAB: Possibly, remember Intel had a separate MMU chip
Daskreech: Yeah feels like the same principle though
maligor: not anymore
RobbieAB: Not really, Intel had a separate chip for the North Bridge, which meant they were already losing the power battle.
Daskreech: yeah new chips coming up
RobbieAB: Yeah, lets give them a generation to work the teething problems out though... ;)
Daskreech: Though AMD should be integrating GPU and CPU which should actually be fascinating
Daskreech: Esp when you look at the F@H stats
maligor: so is intel
Daskreech: Intels chips are not in the same class
maligor: larrabee is a x86 gpu
RobbieAB: Not really.
RobbieAB: It's just a huge number of small x86 (pentium MMX IIRC) cores packed onto a piece of silicon
RobbieAB: So it's not really a GPU as such
maligor: I never understood larrabee tho
maligor: I think it's meant as a discrete graphics board
maligor: but using x86 on that is idiotic
RobbieAB: It's just an application of the principle if you can get enough CPU power, you can do your GPU work on it.
Daskreech: Esp considering F@H :-)
RobbieAB: maligor: it's also a HUGE array of x86 processors on a tiny area...
maligor: crappy x86 processors
RobbieAB: It's still useful for some things.
RobbieAB: Imagine running DOS emulators on those?
maligor: you could run a dos emulator on a gpu
Daskreech: each pixel gets a proc?
maligor: it just doesn't make sense
RobbieAB: Yes, but why bother emulating, when you can simply boot 200 separate DOS instances?
maligor: and do what?
RobbieAB: It's a logical extension of the principle of cheap components
Daskreech: Go with it if you want to live?
RobbieAB: Logically, you would ditch x86 and go for a decent chip...
RobbieAB: But their are problems with that
maligor: yes, there aren't any decent chips
maligor: not for the same price/perf
Daskreech: stands behind his indecent chip
RobbieAB: There are many better ones on the price performance stakes
maligor: I'd love a high performance arm core
RobbieAB: There are none with the same ability to support the last 15 years of proprietry software though
maligor: but they're more or less designed for power efficency
RobbieAB: ARM-CORTEX, MIPS, Sparc, POWER...
RobbieAB: Cell, Alpha, ...
RobbieAB: The list goes on
maligor: POWER is expensive or slow
maligor: Alpha is ancient, dead
maligor: Cell is specialized
RobbieAB: maligor: Alpha is old, and was killed in favour of Itanic
maligor: for MIPS.. the chinese chips are interesting
maligor: but can't really get them here
RobbieAB: POWER is expensive because no one does it in bulk.
maligor: and I doubt they're very good performers
maligor: RobbieAB, not really true
maligor: Freescale does it for embedded systems
maligor: they're just pretty low performance stuff
Daskreech: yay Freescale! :)
Daskreech: Sorry my friend works there so I'm fond of it :)
RobbieAB: Which version of Power? 3?
maligor: and ARM-Cortex is a typical ARM core
RobbieAB: or 5/6?
maligor: embedded dude
maligor: not supercomputer
RobbieAB: the top POWER chips are just not available, like the top MIPS chips.
RobbieAB: The problem is, x86 IS the desktop chip, but not due to any quality of it's design
RobbieAB: Now, better chips could be done cheaper, but you still have the problem of legacy software.
Daskreech: Like Windows is the top desktop Software not due to quality of design
maligor: and SPARC... well, that's sort of diverged in a different path
Daskreech: Hmm sounds familiar ...
maligor: SPARC T2 is certainly interesting, but it's not really a desktop processor
RobbieAB: Windows made x86 the desktop chip, which in turn made windows the desktop OS
maligor: not really true
RobbieAB: x86 would be the dominant chip today without windows 95?
maligor: x86 was just a fluke that got through to the mass market
RobbieAB: I think we can agree to disagree here...
maligor: DOS set it to stone
RobbieAB: not really, as Macs didn't use x86 until a lot later
Daskreech: I'll agree with that
RobbieAB: Nor did the workstations
maligor: RISC would've been much better but it had lots of issues back then
maligor: most notably compilers
maligor: x86 is just easier to write in assembler
RobbieAB: Without windows 95, x86 would not have prevailed over MIPS and POWER
maligor: I never saw anyone selling non-x86 desktop systems
maligor: except apple
maligor: and I think some minor ones
maligor: oh.. right
maligor: nm :P
RobbieAB: And how many GUI systems did you see at the time?
Ivanovic: points at sun and their sparc boxes
maligor: my mind is playing tricks
maligor: Amiga and C64
maligor: Amiga especially
RobbieAB: Apple, Sun, SGI, ...
maligor: but didn't amiga sort of die out before windows 95?
maligor: Sun and SGI were expensive closed setups
maligor: Apple is just crap
maligor: is not biased
maligor: after the initial IBM x86 stuff, there were lots of cheap clones
RobbieAB: Sun and SGI, with a bit of vision, could have put cheap products to market
maligor: the processors were commodity
maligor: I don't think so
maligor: they sold their own complete stacks
maligor: intel and microsoft pretty much sold separate blocks
RobbieAB: SGI probably made the biggest mistake in their history in 91/92 when they started the IRIX 5...
maligor: intel 8086 comes in a DIP
RobbieAB: They supposedly considered jumping to Linux than.
maligor: in 91/92?
maligor: I kinda doubt that
RobbieAB: Yes, when Linux was still in it's infancy.
RobbieAB: Supposed to have been why they didn't, was they couldn't believe it would do what it did
Daskreech: Did anyone?
maligor: it would've changed their market tho
Daskreech: That would be like trusting that haiku OS will take out Apple
RobbieAB: Daskreech: probably not.
maligor: linux would've just been another software stack
Daskreech: It's possible
Daskreech: But seriously.. really?
maligor: Daskreech, Apple will just rot inside
Daskreech: Once you take out the core
maligor: my only interest in mac's has ever been that they used powerpc
maligor: high performance ones at that
RobbieAB: Just imagine though, SGI dropping a Linux/MIPS system in the mid 90s? If they could than push the hardware price down a little...
RobbieAB: has a PowerBook G4 at work
RobbieAB: It's nice
RobbieAB: in 95, the Wintel alliance was vulnerable, by 98 they were inassailable.
maligor: I just wish someone would come out with a ARM 2-core Cortex A9 netbook already ;)
RobbieAB: maligor: Pandora
maligor: yeah, I'm pretty high in that list
RobbieAB: I want to install Gentoo on one of those...
RobbieAB: Because I'm a nut case ;)
maligor: embedded distroes are always targetted to a specific platform
maligor: shame about the delays with it
maligor: can't wait to get mine
RobbieAB: I know.
Daskreech: eythian: I'm off!
Daskreech: See you later man :)
Daskreech: ok maybe not yet
Daskreech: Any thoughts on Spider?