Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-12-10
Deanjo: lmao, toms made a oops http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/40517/122/
bkero: Both AMD and nVidia have been breaking PCI-Express power ratings for a while now.
Deanjo: How do you figure?
pd09: hi all
pd09: any news on ati 8.12 driver?
bkero: Deanjo: The man sitting next to me was a component analyzer for Intel's multimedia division. He primarily analyzed the power regulation section of competitors cards.
Deanjo: OK, but PCI-e V2 has double the power ratings
Deanjo: recalls a intel dude once saying that the P3 500 would whip a Athlon 600 easily and then when asked if we could put them side by side to see he packed up his systems and left the room.
bkero: When I was back at Intel I watched him take some of the measurements.
Deanjo: Seeing that any card that comes close to drawing 75 watts gets a power plug put on it, I don't see how they are exceeding them
bkero: From the graphs it looked like(The GTX280) hovered around the spec and peaked over it sometimes.
bkero: It could be the power reguation circuitry noticed the limit and started drawing from the plug.
bkero: :/ Intel kept that presentation Internal, but I'll see if he kept a copy.
Deanjo: The only time it draws from the slot is when it's running 2d
Deanjo: and on a GTX 280 that is a 25 watt draw
bkero: I know a GTX 280 draws 25w at idle, but who's to say that it doesn't continue drawing from the slot during light 3d, heavy 2d, or heavy 3d?
Deanjo: It simply won't do 3d if the connectors are not hooked up
bkero: ...Yea, I know.
Deanjo: Even heavy 2d still has damn near 3/4's of the chip shut down
bkero: You can still use the shader cores to perform operations on textures
bkero: and that can get pretty heavy
Deanjo: Not even close to needing every shader core
Deanjo: Hell if that was the case using a igp would be impossible
bkero: How many shader cores you use probably depends on how many different operations you're running in parallel
bkero: Like dumping 300mb textures on the card and running them through 200 filters(assuming the filter routines could be written as procedures to the shader cores)
Deanjo: Even an entry quadro could handle that without breaking the bank on current draw
bkero: Not if you're doing them in batch :/
Deanjo: tell ya what, you provide a test case scenario and I could give you the exact current draw increased on the system within 1/10 of a watt
Deanjo: My fluke is actually setup on the bench right now for testing current draw
bkero: http://folding.stanford.edu/English/FAQ-NVIDIA :)
bkero: will ping friend when he gets back from lunch
Deanjo: Running Cuda throws the cards into 3d mode
Deanjo: hmmm, first prey is made available on linux and now ATI is saying driver optimizations for Prey in windows has been done on it. What the hell is with all this sudden obsession with a 2 year old game?
Deanjo: "Prey OGL – performance gains of up to 15% for Crossfire mode. Performance gains were noticed on Radeon HD4870 1GB products, HD46xx, HD45xx."
Kano: michaellarabel: http://www2.ati.com/drivers/linux/catalyst_812_linux.pdf
michaellarabel: Kano: review already posted
Kano: ah, not in rss feed here
michaellarabel: Not yet, FeedBurner usually takes some minutes.
Kano: well currently i dont have got my ati card installed...
Kano: but i know the packaging fault already
Kano: the cap file is missing from default packaging
Kano: for ubuntu
Deanjo: hey michaellarabel did you notice the "new-look" of the Inquirer?
Deanjo: They ripped off The Register again
cxo: Anyone try 8.12 on Fedora?
kkuno: someone has tried catalyst 8.12?
cxo: i just asked that question 10mins ago :)
cxo: Anyone try 8.12 on Fedora?
cxo: * kkuno (email@example.com) has joined #phoronix
kkuno: cxo, I can't use it
kkuno: (EE) module ABI major version (0) doesn't match the server's version (1)
kkuno: (EE) Failed to load module "dri" (module requirement mismatch, 0)
kkuno: dlopen: /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//fglrx_drv.so: undefined symbol: miZeroLineScreenIndex
kkuno: (EE) Failed to load /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//fglrx_drv.so
kkuno: (EE) Failed to load module "fglrx" (loader failed, 7)
kkuno: (EE) No drivers available.
kkuno: sorry for the flooding
cxo: You're not forgiven
kkuno: even if I ignore the ABI I get the other errors
kkuno: cxo, are you experiencing the same issue?
maligor: oh wow, official stream computing support
maligor: maybe my apps won't crash anymore
Deanjo: heh, like the official drivers don't crash?
Kano: kkuno: you have to use new drivers for xserver 1.5+, try 8-12
kkuno: Kano, I'm using xorg 1.5.3
Kano: did you use the standard installer?
Kano: it should detect xserver 1.5
kkuno: uhm I was using the wrong script :P
kkuno: Kano, yeah now it works
maligor: Deanjo, well, they crash when I try to run my program
maligor: the thing is, I've been too lazy to test my program on a stream driver
maligor: nice bugfix: "Executing 'Glxgears' may cause the operating system to stop responding"
maligor: Known issues: This version of the Catalyst Control Center - Linux Edition shows the wrong version for the Catalyst driver, the version should be 8.12
maligor: AMD/ATI has a way with funky known issues
Deanjo: hey michaellarabel Amarok 2 has been released http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.0
Lightkey: does ATI only have the release notes as PDF now?
michaellarabel: Lightkey: Yes
redeeman: they still haven't fixed the note on their site saying that the 64bit drivers requires 32bit packages to install or work
redeeman: despite me telling it to them months ago
Deanjo: You see the Inquirer's "new look" redeeman ?
redeeman: haven't lkooked at it yet
Deanjo: lol, it's identical to the Register
Deanjo: That's the second time they ripped off their look
ufoman: michaellarabel: are you certain that nouveau supports all generations of nvidia hardware?
cxo: Isnt it funny how "Primary display will remain blank after task switching between virtual terminals with dual displays running in Single Independent mode" makes every damn ati driver release notes
cxo: So they fix it again every release?
cxo: stupid Fs
ufoman: is is akways in the "fixed" section?
cxo: even this "Executing Glxears may cause the operating system to stop responding"
ufoman: I lol'd when I read that
cxo: how fukin stupid do you have to be, to be an Ati dev
ufoman: well maybe they pay well
cxo: no they dont
ufoman: you sure?
ufoman: can you give us any numbers?
cxo: Not an amount, but a friend of mine who applied for a job there, go so fed up with the arrogance of the interviewer, he just walked out. Hes been working at nvidia for some 5yrs now. He says the work ethic is completely different
ufoman: good for him ;)
cxo: It was for no other than Linux Driver Development too
cxo: Anyways to try 8.12 now, i know its not going to work, but i'm a fool and i keep trying
ufoman: Deanjo: omglol@stallman, that gmane link is awesome
cxo: as expected
cxo: and silly me, here i thought 5yrs might help ati with their drivers
cxo: but heck no
ufoman: I'd buy ATI only for a gaming box...
ufoman: they kick ass under windows ;p
ufoman: Roberth: hi
cxo: they suck balls on windows too
ufoman: not as hard as on linux tho
ufoman: I can vouch for that
Roberth: I am using the nvidia propietary linux driver, I got an lcd tv connected which is 32" which uses 1360x768(16:9) and my primary monitor which is an 22" monitor which uses 1680x1050(16:10) I clone my computer monitor to my tv and uses the 1360x768, but the picture goes outside the edges of the tv, how do I scale down the image on the tv so I at least see the whole picture?
Milyardo: Roberth: IIRC
Milyardo: Pan options won't come until RandR 1.3
Milyardo: *Pan Support
Milyardo: As for resizing the image
Milyardo: Some montitor's scale resolutions of a different aspect ratio
ufoman: nvidia aims to implement randr 1.2 in their drivers
Roberth: ufoman: yeah I know, I was teh one who told michaellarabel that
ufoman: you'd besically like the image to be scaled down to tv's resolution?
Roberth: no the resolution, just teh picture
ufoman: isn't that the same?
ufoman: you cloned the larger display
ufoman: so the 1366x768 tv gets image in 1680x1050 res
ufoman: then it's no wonder it doesn't fit there...
Roberth: well I dont got any choice since expanding the desktop sucks
michaellarabel: Tomorrow's VDPAU article @ http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=13232
Deanjo: You got the older 8400GS?
cxo: whaz abouz z integrated geepeeu, hey?
bkero: is using it with integrated gpu :)
cxo: just realised "z" is such a useful letter, too bad the Americans use it in all the wrong places!
bkero: res typo on page 3
Deanjo: heh $50 video/cpu = overkill
Deanjo: Should of tried it with the sempron underclocked
Deanjo: How low can you go?
bkero: It was already pegging the sempron with playback at some points
redeeman: well.. buying nvidia is certainly far down on the scale
Deanjo: bkero, on which test does it peg with vdpau?
bkero: Deanjo: i"m talking without vdpau
Deanjo: I'm talking with
Deanjo: and keep underclocking the sempron
bkero: should put a PCI bus on the GPIO of his beagle, and throw an 8400GS on that :P
bkero: That will be impressive
redeeman: too bad the beagleboard doesn't have drivers
Deanjo: debates grabbing out an old Cyrix 120+ system :P
bkero: Drivers for what?
cxo: pci on a gpio haha
redeeman: bkero: how about the 3d core?
bkero: On the beagle? That's ok, won't do x264 though
bkero: Might be able to do PCI on gpio. It has enough pins, and I think gpio can operate at 33mhz
bkero: wonders if anybody makes a PCI controller that can operate on gpio
bkero: My NSLU2 runs USB2 off of gpio, that gets around 68mbit off of it
bkero: Or was that the IDE controller on the efika...
Deanjo: michaellarabel, are you sure that 8400GS isn't a G98 based model?
Deanjo: The newer ones are
Milyardo: Deanjo: I have a pretty slow sempron, no card to try vdpau though
Deanjo: I imagine a person could probably slap a 8400 in a k6 or p2 system and still have enough uuumph
redeeman: or just use an E8400
Deanjo: lol ya and gobble up a shitload of more power
redeeman: lol, with nvidia in the picture, you want to talk power?
Deanjo: 25 watts on a 8400 in purevideo mode
redeeman: how much for an E8400 using 1 core only?
Deanjo: Do the total wattage
Deanjo: figure it out
Deanjo: do the math
redeeman: i doubt you will actually save power by going 8400 + P35 + random core 2 versus G35 + e8400
redeeman: in fact i think you will use more
redeeman: and even if that doesn't pan out
redeeman: the removal of an nvidia component is worth $100 in power every day
Deanjo: lol seriously, get a frip
redeeman: so.. what do you have to say about the example i just put forth?
Deanjo: AMD 22warr x2 proc, 780g, 8400
Deanjo: 22 watt
Deanjo: Christ your chipset alone gobbles up a shitload of wattage
redeeman: you just said the 8400 alone consumes 25
Deanjo: Yes I'm saying 22watt amd + 780G + 8400
redeeman: lol, with nvidia in the picture, you want to talk power?
redeeman: 25 watts on a 8400 in purevideo mode
redeeman: that does not compute
redeeman: how can amd stuff, PLUS nvidia consume less than nvidia?
Deanjo: 22 watt processor
Deanjo: + 780G
Deanjo: + 8400 G
redeeman: 780g consumes too
Deanjo: 1 watt
redeeman: with an added advantage of actually decoding every file
redeeman: and the added advantage of not requiring buggy drivers
redeeman: any objective mind will clearly favor the nvidia free solution
Deanjo: lol your mind is anything but objected
redeeman: it is very objective
Deanjo: verbal diarrhea more like it
redeeman: you are just blindly ignoring very important things
redeeman: such as the crap quality of certain software
redeeman: which objective minds factor in
Deanjo: redeeman, < 1 month vs how many years with ffmpeg?
Deanjo: already they are knocking on the door
redeeman: you are making my point.. ffmpeg is mature
redeeman: it's ready
bkero: Now if they'd just open it.
redeeman: and it will always be there
redeeman: with nvidia you can never ever be sure the shit will work tomorow
redeeman: and theres not a damn thing you can do
bkero: wonders if mplayer will consider bug reports tainted since you're using proprietary blobs
redeeman: i hope they do
Deanjo: bkero, the accepted nvidia XvMC in the past
bkero: Deanjo: Accepted in what sense? Did they investigate bugs surrounding it?
bkero: and now what is their stance on it since it's an abandoned module?
Deanjo: Still works on the cards that support it
bkero: Can't always say that'll be the case though, especially if mplayer code changes.
Deanjo: Can't say it will be the case on opensource shit either
bkero: But you can adapt the open source shit
bkero: The only one who can adapt the nVidia XvMC is nVidia.
Deanjo: IF somebody picks it up
Deanjo: Big IF
bkero: But that somebody could be an interested party
Deanjo: bkero, so why doesn't the open radeon drivers support it yet?
bkero: Can't say. Perhaps it's because nobody skilled enough has wanted it bad enough to touch the code.
Deanjo: The documentation has been there for a while as even bridgeman has pointed out
bkero: Maybe the foundation code for the module isn't there yet for even beginning that
bkero: Since it is a relatively new project
Deanjo: everything needed is freely available
Deanjo: has been for quite a while
bkero: and there has been a lot of work put into it since writing it from scratch
bkero: It took Intel even longer to get good drivers out
bkero: good open drivers
bkero: and they're dealing with less hardware to support
Deanjo: ATI isn't even going to bother doing the code for it. They are letting the community do it if they want
bkero: They are too. Take a look at the git logs for radeonHD, and look at the email addresses of the commiters.
cxo: ATi == Devil
Deanjo: XvMC not
cxo: A.K.A The Evil
redeeman: xvmc is obviously obsolete
redeeman: as should h264 "acceleration" be
redeeman: we needed it 2 years ago
redeeman: not today
bkero: Wait a minute, I think I did get XvMC acceleration on an RS690 before I left for the fall.
redeeman: and we may need it again, once they bump resolution
bkero: I was running radeonhd git head, and did get some cpu offloading
bkero: Didn't bother looking who contributed the code though.
bkero: chizu's media centre was playing some 1080p xvid at relatively few resources
cxo: Everytime someone buys an ATi product, God kills a kitten
cxo: And!!! your next girlfriend
redeeman: what if one is female?
bkero: Binary blogs are bad, mmmkay? Linux is smoking some crack.
cxo: Females generally are smart enough not to buy things the don't work. So they need not worry
redeeman: lol cxo
bkero: lol females work smart worry
redeeman: just because you knowingly bought a really expensive piece of assorted components doesn't mean everyone else does :P
cxo: it wasnt expensive!
cxo: i got it in October! for $230
redeeman: so.. you wanna buy an equally useful piece of crap for $200?
redeeman: it's cheap!
redeeman: i can go down to $50
cxo: I said it wasn't expensive
redeeman: a piece of poo is probably likely to give you more graphics
redeeman: as you can put it close to someones nvidia or intel box
redeeman: and drive them away
redeeman: and then take the hardware
redeeman: so really, it's a bargain!
cxo: Don't worry Phoronix will coerce ATi to releasing drivers by continuously writing pro-ATi propaganda bull shit
redeeman: the only people phoronix will coerce, is unsuspecting people in the market for graphics hardware for linux
Deanjo: bkero, read the last paragraph http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=47709&postcount=25
bkero: Deanjo: maybe it will be a priority now to be competitive?
Deanjo: They will be going after UVD
bkero: (so sayeth your post)
Deanjo: ya, I know, just didn't bother typing in the 2
bkero: What ever happened with this? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njc4Ng [+]
chizu: ATI's doing a lot more to support open source than nvidia.
Deanjo: lol libraries are useless without an API
chizu: So I'd rather have the ATI card most of the time.
Deanjo: If you don't mind having a 2+ generation old card for support that's ok chizu
chizu: Yeah, well, if I'm using open code Nvidia is less supported on current hardware.
chizu: My choice is working 2D with ATI or a card that just kind of works with nv/nouveau.
Deanjo: My choice is working everything thus why the blobs
chizu: For 3D Nvidia's blob is much better.
Deanjo: Usually same day support when released too
chizu: For my workstation I just got rid of my Radeon 3850 for a GeForce 9600M, but all of my other hardware will remain Intel/ATI.
cxo: My blob is better than your blob.....what has linux come to
Deanjo: Well ATI's blob is bigger :P
cxo: yeah about 4x bigger for that matter
Deanjo: Like your woman says cxo, size doesn't matter :P
chizu: You mean smaller?
chizu: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3.0M Oct 30 12:11 fglrx.ko
chizu: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9.4M Nov 1 15:31 nvidia.ko
Deanjo: We are talking download size chizu
bkero: Oh man, nvidia TOTALLY uses better compression.
Deanjo: Works better then a turbo button bkero :D
Deanjo: notices Roland Hui is burning the midnight oil @ nvidia