Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-11-05
bkero: Hot hot dremel action on woot.
elcasey: good morning
Erektium: good afternoon
cxo: good morning++
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: could you please run a forced update on pts git?
Ivanovic: looks like i don't really get the latest version again...
Plouj: michaellarabel: Ivanovic wants you to automate that
Plouj: and so does Obama
michaellarabel: Plouj: I can do it for Ivanovic, but not for Obama.
Plouj: do it for the love of the kittens
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: thanks, now it worked as expected
Milyardo: michaellarabel: Have you bought a G1 yet? and are there any plans to get PTS working on Andriod based phones?
bkero: Heh fat chance
michaellarabel: Milyardo: I have no plans to buy a G1. Would be neat if PTS would run on Android. I think Intel may have PTS running on Moblin MIDs internally.
bkero: G1's operating sysetm is only linux in kernel
bkero: Me and a friend disassembled the filesystem
bkero: There's not even a shell
Milyardo: (In guessing herebut )all you'd need to so is at least install php, and you'd be able to run PTS through telnet or ssh
michaellarabel: I'm still waiting on Google's Google Earth PTS test profile :(
Deanjo: Mornin/Afternoon/Eveneing all
michaellarabel: When the time comes, anyone interested in translating a few strings into their native language for PTS?
Erektium: is it hard?
michaellarabel: Erektium: If you know English and another language, it shouldn't be hard at all.
bkero: The G1 comes with dropbear
bkero: It's barely barely barely linux.
michaellarabel: There won't even be that many strings either, considering PTS doesn't ask that much of the user.
Erektium: well i'm interested
maligor: bkero, barely barely barely?
maligor: bkero, you can just download the android sources now
michaellarabel: Erektium: Great, I'll probably have the English strings ready within a few weeks. Thanks!
maligor: google has even added their own google stuff as a option i the sources which is rather nice of them
Erektium: no problem
michaellarabel: And I imagine it's for Finnish?
maligor: I wonder why noone has made a automated i18n that uses google's translator or something
maligor: might be funny
maligor: developer tool that is, not runtime
bkero: maligor: I know, but it doesn't come with anything you'd really consider linux.
maligor: why would it?
bkero: No /etc/passwd, no shell, no sysvinit
maligor: I think it's pretty well designed then
bkero: It's a bunch of google code on top of a linux kernel, that's about it.
bkero: You think it's well designed because it doesn't use something?
maligor: it doesn't need them
maligor: it's a phone
cxo: Smoke on your daughter!
bkero: It still needs the concept of a privileged and non-privileged user
bkero: It still needs a system to initialize services
maligor: a phone will only have a single user
bkero: Because you're going to be adding applications
maligor: mm.. yes, true
bkero: And you want a system to make sure that whoever grabs your phone can't install ZOMGSYSTEMOWN.app
maligor: you don't want to run apps as root anyway
bkero: Ok, so you have dalvik running as root, and you running as not-root, that means you need a user system.
cxo: Android's scheduler creates a separate UID for each processes for security purposes
cxo: michaellarabel, not booting android on your PC for kicks?
cxo: people are running it using qemu's arm emulation
bkero: I just extracted the filesystem from the firmware update, and am looking at the executables in vi.
bkero: It comes with a busybox-alike called Toolbox. It's help message is: 'Toolbox!'
maligor: bkero, why not just download the sources?
bkero: maligor: Because the sources will contain an entire toolchain. I'm not interested in the toolchain, I'm interested in the end product.
maligor: you don't need to download the toolchain
bkero: To build it you do.
maligor: erhm.. maybe I misunderstood you
maligor: I thought you wanted to know how it works
maligor: not look at binary symbols
bkero: I'm interested in it's running environment.
bkero: The source code won't tell me how much memory Dalvik will use up with things running on top of it, how much it will keep free, how the linux kernel deals with it ballooning, etc.
maligor: neither will looking at the binary blobs :P
Milyardo: Only emulation will tell you that bkero
maligor: it's a java -like vm designed for embedded systems, it probably won't use much
bkero: Milyardo: Or running a small set of binaries on the phone :P
bkero: It's not really java, it's just dalvik. It uses the bytecode concept like java, but you can use anything that will compile in to dalvik bytecode.
maligor: let's see what my build yesterday reveals (android, built it, got bored and forgot it) :P
bkero: did that with the openembedded project. It ate up 20G by the time it was done.
maligor: doesn't it use the java compiler first
Milyardo: So it's dalvik you have a problem with then?
maligor: and then dex converter to 'dalvik'
bkero: shrugs. I could care less about java.
maligor: there's qtopia too
bkero: I'd like python, perl, or C dalvik bytecode.
maligor: C doesn't convert too well
Milyardo: So whats missing from it that makes it not Linux again?
maligor: C# probably would work better
bkero: C# would be trainwreck
bkero: There's no way you're going .NET->Dalvik
maligor: C# is just a language
maligor: I didn't mean .NET libraries
Milyardo: .NET is just a API
Milyardo: just like c++ != std
maligor: I doubt there's anything to stop one from writing a C# to JVM compiler
bkero: Besides massive amounts of time and brain cycles
Milyardo: bkero: Proboly not
bkero: Milyardo: prove me wrong
bkero: Has C# ever been used for anything besides .net?
Milyardo: The steps involved would include building libraries, changing asm tables, then from there it optimazation
maligor: mono? :P
Milyardo: Well I guess there is one hurdle
bkero: Mono is just an implementation of .net :P
Milyardo: the fact that you would have no existing C# compilier to use
Milyardo: OH right mono
Milyardo: So yeah, all you'd have to do is change the ASM table
Milyardo: then work on optimazations
maligor: depends on how well jvm and clr match
bkero: And try to map standard functions to dalvik libraries, hope everything matches up
Milyardo: Why woudl you do the bkero?
Milyardo: Just change your program to use dalvik libraries
Milyardo: no need to do any API mapping
maligor: I imagine the compiler would want to check api mappings
Milyardo: And it will
Milyardo: but why would you try and translate library X to library Y, when you can just use library Y?
cxo: needs to roll
bkero: Why even bother writing a translation when there already perfectly good languages to use? :p
Milyardo: Whos translating what? All you have to is change the ASM table that containts the intruction set
Milyardo: and you're done
bkero: Why don't you try that then, and tell me how it works for you?
Milyardo: But now that I think about, if you use mono, you'd have to assume mono can build on architectures other than x86
cxo: the bid on that SEL i showed you last night is now at $15k
bkero: You also have to assume that dalvik and it are typed the same, or even contain types
cxo: really needs to roll
Milyardo: roll cxo roll!
bkero: If the dalvik printf(nibble a) instruction expects a nibble, and you have no nibbles in C#, you might have a problem.
Milyardo: I think you're confusing what dalvik is
bkero: It's just a virtual machine with a set of libraries on top of it.
Milyardo: ummm no It's just a VM
bkero: The android runtime consists of core libraries and the dalvik vm
bkero: The core libraries expose standard system libraries
Milyardo: portage is fail this week
bkero: What'd it do this time?
Milyardo: Circular dependencies
GNU\colossus: use paludis
bkero: That's a whole different bag of worms
bkero: had to deal with paludis computers in a pure portage environment.
bkero: It really aggrivates cfEngine.
GNU\colossus: well, common sense tells you that you shouldn't mix-and-match two or more packet manglers, right? :)
bkero: We use cfEngine to manage portage, apt, and yum.
ilm: i was looking for advice on a good (fast) NAS drive.
ilm: am I in the right place? ;)
bkero: You're in the right place if you want to run linux on it. :P
ilm: it's running linux by default ;)
bkero: I'd recommend an orion device.
ilm: i was thinking about http://forcom.be/?product=303717 . runs yellow dog linux i believe. but reviews mention it is slow :s
maligor: #nas-central? :P
bkero: I picked up a 1TB HP MediaVault for $89 on eCost the other week.
bkero: Dual 500GB's, one was hotswappable
maligor: sweet, I hope you instantly put it on mirror
ilm: hmm cheap, can only find nas drive from 150 euro here
maligor: ilm, two or one disk?
ilm: one is enough
maligor: buffalo linkstations are ok
ilm: two is better, IF it stays around 150 euro
maligor: as long as it isn't the 'white' model
bkero: maligor: Nope, I installed gentoo, and am exporting the disks over iScsi to my main fileserver. They're RAID60'd on there.
maligor: Linkstation Live or Pro
ilm: it will be to backup critical data. H however. don't know
ilm: However i don't think i'll get surge protectors etc for that :p
maligor: don't think you can find 2 disk devices for 150eur
ilm: my guess too
maligor: unless you mean case only
maligor: Zyxel NSA-220 looks like it has some potential
ilm: nice site btw, thanks. will browse through it before I ask other dumb questions
ilm: lemme take a look
bkero: That's what I got
maligor: NSA-220 is a case only
maligor: and there's no firmware hacking community ontop of it
maligor: but it's marvell orion
maligor: and nas-central says it has 128mb
ilm: to be honest, it looks cool. But will probably be overkill for my use
maligor: dns-323 is another case only dual
maligor: comes with only 64mb ram tho
bkero: ilm: If you already have externals, I'd recommend a Linksys NSLU-2. :)
bkero: Cheap, awesome. Mine runs debian.
ilm: i got a couple of icybox'es :)
maligor: bkero, doesn't exactly give good performance
ilm: fast ?
bkero: maligor: I stream 1080p off of it. It'll do 8.5MB/sec of throughput.
bkero: and I can run hellanzb, irssi, nfs kernel server, samba, and apache on it.
maligor: bkero, what kind of speeds does hdparm give on it?
ilm: the one i had in mind does only 3MB/s :s
bkero: ilm: Break one of the resistors off the board, the process is documented on nslu2-linux.org. It sets the chip speed to 266mhz instead of 133.
bkero: It's not an overclock since that's the actual rating of the chip.
bkero: maligor: 10.26MB/sec from hdparm
maligor: you need to use a usb case on it too I guess
maligor: the prices goes pretty near a dns-323 :P
bkero: Cases are $12 on newegg
ilm: that's dlink ?
ilm: i'm from europe :)
bkero: Oh, the DNS is yea
maligor: nslu-2 is linksys
ilm: but only cases ?
bkero: DNS-323 is $150.
maligor: I got mine as a bad package model for 120eur
bkero: NSLU2s are $48 on DAKMart(dunno how you feel about them), or $85 on someplace better
maligor: ie, the cartboard box was dented
maligor: 97 eur here for nslu-2
maligor: anyway, the linkstation pro/live stuff are ok too
bkero: They're all just orion stuff.
maligor: yeah, the orions are decent low end stuff
bkero: likes the nslu2 because it's solid-state
bkero: That DNS323 has a little whiny 40mm fan
maligor: there's that, yes
maligor: but it sort of gets drowned by my main machine that sounds rather like a turbine
bkero: All of my computers are solid-state, besides desktop. That was a water pump.
maligor: well, maybe not
maligor: but it still drowns
bkero: Try unplugging the fan and see if it even gets hot.
ilm: guys, guys
ilm: i'm overwhelmed :)
bkero: Be a man, void that warranty
maligor: I'd have to disassemble the case
maligor: I've disassembled it once
maligor: couldn't stop myself
bkero: It's only natural
bkero: ilm: Try a D-Link DNS-323, a Linksys NSLU2(with this one you'll need to make the drives USB), an HP MediaVault 2120, or a Buffalo Linkstation
maligor: the zyxel looks very interesting too
bkero: I actually bought an MSI Wind Barebone to replace my NSLU2.
maligor: but not much info on it yet
bkero: But it's about 20x bigger and takes up 10x the electricity. :(
maligor: intel atom to the rescue
ilm: bkero: k thx
bkero: Atoms kinda suck.
bkero: Well, it's not the atoms that suck, it's the chipsets they mated it to.
bkero: Atoms run firefox painstakingly slow.
maligor: ilm, the nslu2 is the slowest of those, by far :P
maligor: linkstations are probably cheapest since they bundle a drive
maligor: just don't get the 'white' model
maligor: pro or live is the good stuff
bkero: $110 for 2 500GB hard drives, and the computer :)
ilm: i ruled the nslu2 out. don't like to attache another external usb hd too it
maligor: linkstations are also very easy to find in europe
ilm: well yes, those seem reasonable.
maligor: mirror would be better for backup :P
ilm: 163 euro for a Buffalo LinkStation Pro 320GB
maligor: the live might be cheaper
maligor: they're same hardware
ilm: Buffalo LinkStation Live 500GB 180 euro
ilm: i really don't know where you guys get hold of the 110 dollar thing :D
bkero: I posted the link in here
maligor: I see Live 320 here for 143eur
maligor: bkero, we have 22% VAT here, dunno about belgium
ilm: US, i'll pay extra tax'es
bkero: Heh, fuck that whole thing
bkero: I need to seastead
bkero: VAT is pretty lame
ilm: additionally, if i order from the US i guess i need a convertor for the electric net
ilm: the thing is, i know someone who is new york right now. he could fetch me one of those
maligor: the things use bricks
maligor: so you'd just need to get a brick
ilm: so, i need another brick
bkero: They're just a 12v power supply
bkero: Just find a plug that fits and splice it into a brick
maligor: amazon would probably alter vat to local, dunno what vat uk has
maligor: it's probably a standard brick socket
maligor: bkero, doesn't it say SOLD OUT tho?
maligor: oh, it uses that elephant socket
bkero: I bought mine before it says SOLD OUT :)
bkero: They might get more
maligor: that's less than half-price tho
maligor: are they selling illegal stock?
maligor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822165075 is the same product
ilm: amazon.de is best for us, better than uk
ilm: this becomes reasonable. so i'll probably go for that
maligor: can't find local shops?
ilm: hardware is always way cheaper in germany than belgium :-)
maligor: Linkstation Live 500GB is 156 Eur here
ilm: it's normal, only 8% VAT in germany i believe
ilm: 21% in belgium :)
redeeman: 25% in dk
ilm: the live is 162 euro on amazon.de so for 5 euro more i get a pro. what the difference may be
ilm: even higher in norway
maligor: oh, 142 eur is the cheapest
ilm: well the beer/alchohol anyway
maligor: for linkstation live 500 here, that's with 22% vat
ilm: you lucky americans
maligor: not americas
maligor: I guess it's cheaper than germany for some magical reason
maligor: and that's even a shop that has a local store in the middle of helsinki
ilm: the Linksys NSLU2-DE is 78 euro on amazon.de
ilm: finland is cheap
ilm: what is the difference between live and pro ? seems live has print server, pro doesn't
ilm: ah, got it. sorry for asking
maligor: different software
maligor: I think I saw somewhere saying pro has higher throughout, maybe because of more free memory for cacheing
bkero: Throughput shouldn't be that big of a bottleneck
maligor: the hardware should be identical tho, just different color box
ilm: thanks for the help. i'll go for the 170 euro one
ilm: suddenly thinking about a up&p player too. a pity there is no vga/hdmi out on the buffalo ;)
bkero: just bought a phone for that purpose.
ilm: lol, is it powerful enough to play say 720i mpeg4 ?
cxo: so whens catalyst 8.11 happening