Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-10-28
cxo: i think if a corporation needs to hack-run windows soft on linux at a large scale (ie, needing official support), they have bigger issues
cxo: especially considering, what are the odds the software you want to run is officially supported, no one is going to deploy 300 computers with linux and then have ms office installed on cxoffice
cxo: even then, you have to "bid" for features
Deanjo: Not really, for example I know of quite a few corporate sites (ie life insurance and such) that require their agents to use IE only
cxo: then they should use windows
cxo: any big corp is not going to bitch about paying windows licenses
cxo: and actually come to think about it, it might be cheaper than cxoffice licenses per seat
Deanjo: Well here is an example scenario, Apple had to do massive hacking and coding to get their 3rd party CRM to work in Safari. Not every business has that resources though to pull that off
cxo: I still dont see why anyone would buy this in large volume and require "official" support
Deanjo: Because if something doesn't work your dealing with a individual supplier and not some 50% of the time ignored mailing list hoping issues get fixed
Deanjo: It the same reason why corporations also go for LTS os's
cxo: but this is on the premise, that its actually useful
cxo: i'm saying its _not_ useful
cxo: I can see the odd I'm-a-Mac person buying this to run some game or something, but no one else
Deanjo: Quickbooks is another app that is really only available for windows
cxo: you would still buy windows i think
Deanjo: Intuits choices of Quickbooks for Mac for example sucks ass
cxo: site licenses are like $37.50/user < 25 users, its really no big deal buying windows if you actually needed it
Deanjo: So you have a few choices, VMware Fusion, Parallels, Codeweavers or Bootcamp. CX office is by far the cheapest of them all
cxo: Microsoft products arent really that expensive when you are grossing a 20million a year (small-medium business)
cxo: Buy the right tool for the job, if your staff need to use windows soft, buy windows
Deanjo: For one bloody application?
Deanjo: That doesn't make sense at all
cxo: i think it does, quickbooks needs a quickbooks server, and integration with your CRM or CMS would need to be on the same platform otherwise you have a bigger headache on your hands
cxo: Assuming we are not talking about a 3 employee business
Deanjo: Integration of a CRM/CMS is pretty damn easy with a product like crossover
cxo: cxoffice implements windows IPC?
Deanjo: As far as a quickbooks server goes that's what virtual servers are for
cxo: Bottom line is, I've never seen anyone use cxoffice, and i've only worked in 100% non-windows environments for the past 5years
Deanjo: Well bottom line here is that after being with Apple for years, such deployments are very common
cxo: Apple is not a good example
cxo: Apple users have a totally different mindset, you first need to understand why they think paying more and getting less is worth it, once you understand that you can understand the rest
Deanjo: The nuber 2 desktop OS is not a good example?
cxo: if you mean with a market share of like 1%, yes, its not a good example
Deanjo: That would be Linux's desktop market share
Deanjo: OS X is around 7-9%
cxo: maybe in Lala land
Deanjo: And growing at a larger rate then any other OS
cxo: that will be short lived, people are just busy hating Vista at the moment
Deanjo: I don't think it will be short lived
cxo: well only time will tell how it all turns out, apple is becoming more of a consumer electronics company day by day anyways
Deanjo: People have only being saying that for 20 years
cxo: consumer electronics?
Deanjo: No being short lived
cxo: in the 1980s, i'd hazard a guess and say Mac/PC was 50/50, and now its not, so in my math, that doesnt mean its getting better
Deanjo: You had a much smaller sample size in those days (I can't really ever remembering it even being close to 50/50. Maybe in the Apple II days)
cxo: i'd say 50/50 was a good guess for LC2 days
Deanjo: Not even, back then it was IBM,Compaq,Tandy
Deanjo: (compaq and tandy switching regularly)
cxo: i guess where i lived, apple was very popular back then
Deanjo: Where Apple was extremely lockin was in education
cxo: even my grandfather had an Apple
Deanjo: Education accounted for nearly 75% of their sales back then
cxo: what % of that OS share is now because of iPhone users using the internet
Deanjo: Those percentages don't count iPhone
Lightkey: iPhone users are a fraction of a percent according to stats
cxo: What is more mafioso than this -> http://kijiji.ebayimg.com/i21/04/k/000/7d/50/1e59_20.JPG?set_id=1C4000
Deanjo: Speaking of iPhone, you guys check out Google Earth for iPhone?
cxo: I would have thought Apple sells more iPhones than Macs
Deanjo: I finally see a use for google earth now :P
Deanjo: Oh hell no, computers still crush iphones in sales
Lightkey: cxo: even if true, the already sold Macs are still being used, silly
cxo: A lot of misuse of funds
Deanjo: Macbooks alone are greater then iPhone sales
cxo: One of our hw engineers just got himself an Apple Air for nothing, just because he could
cxo: the advantages of an expense account
Deanjo: I wouldn't mind an Air, but the price would have to come down to $700
Deanjo: I have a hard time justifying anything more then that for any portable
cxo: i'm too poor-minded to buy a mac at all, my logic just doesnt justify it at all
cxo: I'd rather buy a house, porsche or a plane, with that kind of money :)
Deanjo: If you don't buy accessories from apple the MacPro is one of the cheapest Octocore systems out there
Deanjo: The Mac mini as well is cheaper then it's "knockoffs"
cxo: MacPro is cheap if you stick to spec.
Deanjo: Right, procs are the only thing you really don't get gouged for
Deanjo: Ram and HD's however.....
cxo: Heaven help you if you ever wanted to upgrade it someday
Deanjo: Buy from a 3rd party for upgrades
cxo: Assuming the board was good enough for an upgrade
Deanjo: Why would yoy assume otherwise?
cxo: You cant put anything more than a 16x PCI-E card, or dual 8x, which equals budget mobo in today's money
cxo: All these OEM boards are shit for upgrades, because they are customised for the chassis and spec sheet at the time of design
cxo: even upgrading a Dell is painful
Deanjo: Dual PCI-e 8x though have just as much bandwidth as dual PCI-e 16 1.1
cxo: no it doesnt
Deanjo: Yes it does
Deanjo: PCI-e V2 is double the bandwidth
cxo: and which MacPro has a v2 board?
Deanjo: The MacPro's
Deanjo: They have had it since Early 2008
cxo: since when, i have a dataheet for july 2008, pci-e 1.1
Deanjo: Only the first Gen were PCI-e 1.1
cxo: i feel all homosexual when i talk about macs
cxo: whats with silver anyways?
Deanjo: Mac Pro's Early 2008's have 1 PCI-e x16 V2 slot filled by the factory card and still have 1 PCI-e x16 V2 and two PCI-e x 16 V2 4 slots
Deanjo: PCI Express expansion7
Deanjo: * Three open full-length PCI Express expansion slots
Deanjo: o One PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot
Deanjo: o Two PCI Express x4 slots
cxo: great they upgraded the board
cxo: wants a hid kit
Deanjo: The datasheet you have is for the Mid 2006 it sounds
cxo: did you get a nice leaving gift from Apple?
Deanjo: A 6 digit paycheck :D
Deanjo: Paid for my mortgage, a new truck, and credit cards with plenty to spare :D
cxo: heh not bad
Deanjo: Oh and a ipod shuffle :P
Deanjo: I got a kick out of getting the shuffle as part of my leaving
cxo: do you use it?
Deanjo: It was funny though, towards the end I slowly started seeing my access privileges get whittled down
Deanjo: Gave it to my kid
Deanjo: Got too damn many Pods as it is
Deanjo: They gave them out like candy
cxo: might as well start on that novel about working at Apple now
Deanjo: lol "My Memoirs"
Deanjo: "I survived Steve Jobs dieing 3 times and lived to tell about it!!!!"
cxo: now they're saying he had a stroke
Deanjo: Ya some punk kid on iCNN did that
cxo: its way passed my bed time, got some annoying things to do tomorrow....today morning
Kano: hi Marox
Administrator: hello all
Marox: michaellarabel: are you around ?
Mortus: so about this splashtop linux
Mortus: hello all
Marox: did you change the gtkperf-testprofile recently, michael ?
michaellarabel: With 1.4, yes
Marox: ah.. this explains the big difference between the results of 1.2.2 and the last beta ?
michaellarabel: Yes, it's now running on 5,000 iterations instead of 2,000
Marox: ah ok..
Kano: that can take pretty long time *g*
Marox: there one little thing to mention for 1.4beta2
Marox: "Do you want to launch Phoronix Global (Y/n)? y"
Marox: -> http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/index.php?k=profile
Marox: missing is the complete link
Marox: tested on unbuntu 8.04 and 8.10
michaellarabel: hmmm that shouldn't be
Marox: the link is displayed, but not opened
michaellarabel: one second
Marox: i mean.. example: http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/index.php?k=profile&u=user3-23774-29972-9250 is printed in the terminal, but firefox opens http://global.phoronix-test-suite.com/index.php?k=profile
michaellarabel: Yeah, I see now, I just reproduced it
michaellarabel: Fixed it, I will push it to git soon
michaellarabel: Thanks for reporting it.
Marox: btw. for me the GtkPerf-Tests are on the same level (+-1second) on 8.04 and 8.10
michaellarabel: What driver?
Marox: latest fglrx on radeon 9800 pro
maligor: Marox, that's not very shocking
maligor: if you use the same driver
Almindor: anyone knows if it
Almindor: it's possible to get AMD catalyst 8.8 to work with .27 kernel distros?
Almindor: currently doesn't compile with some smp function call, but I'd really love to have a new distro with older drivers :( (the new ones are simply broken)
michaellarabel: Almindor: If you copy over the firegl_public code from 8.10 to 8.8 folder
Almindor: that simple eh? :D
Almindor: any way to re-pack the change thing so I can get .debs out of it?
Kano: Almindor: my script has autopatching for debian/ubuntu systems that do not use xserver 1.5, you can use -v 8-7 to -v 8-10
Almindor: Kano, well I'm on ibex
Kano: then you can only use 8.10b
Almindor: damn, I'll have to revert
Almindor: friggin piece of ati/amd shit
Almindor: they've been introducing regressions since 8.9
maligor: they did release that xserver 1.5 one
maligor: I'm using those now
Almindor: yeah but on laptop/x86_64 it's broken
maligor: what happens?
Almindor: basic 2d/3d works but it's almost as slow as vesa in 2d and has bugs in 3d (and fullscreen)
Almindor: and no powerplay since 8.9
Almindor: they just don't test x86_64 laptop models I guess
maligor: did you report it tho?
maligor: well, their testing squad seems a bit flaky anyway, or maybe it's their release schedule
Almindor: it's them
maligor: 8.10 has a weird regression in the release notes
Almindor: AMD.. nevermore (in graphics at least)
Almindor: was my 1st and last ATI card
maligor: the alternative is nvidia who covers up defective cards
maligor: or intel with slow graphics
maligor: err.. slow 3d
Almindor: yes but at least their GL stack is healthier and drivers on par with windblows (mostly)
michaellarabel: For those wanting to learn more (and watch more plug-ins) about Plymouth: http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=13029
maligor: Almindor, yeah, man.. but I won't support a company who won't come forward
Almindor: like AMD does..
Almindor: maligor, you basically just said you won't support any company :)
maligor: they did with their phenom issues
maligor: they didn't mix the fixed models with the broken ones
maligor: they're new models
Almindor: btw. the ubuntu slowdown? dead on
Almindor: there's something wrong with latest ubuntu, but IMHO it's kernel
Almindor: I noticed also some really bad IO - non-IO oddities
maligor: the latest ubuntu defaulted to compiz
Almindor: e.g: when some app is killing the disk, other app windows (already loaded) pretty much freeze
Almindor: something I wouldn't expect on linux
maligor: and that was on a laptop with r300 :P
Almindor: they turned compiz of
maligor: it was enabled when I installed the 8.10 rc
Almindor: maybe but they turned it off in the test
Almindor: besides.. 2x memory speed?
Almindor: how does compiz make that result ? :D
Almindor: btw. where's the amd bugrep page for ati drivers?
maligor: email addy for official
maligor: "Closing Xterm may intermittently result in either kernel panic or a system hang." is the weirdest known issue I've ever seen on a release too (8.10) :P
Almindor: "email addy"?
Almindor: sorry, probably not getting something
maligor: I was remembering there was a email address somewhere for bugs
michaellarabel: Use the "unofficial" BugZilla
maligor: I guess that would be http://ati.cchtml.com/
maligor: interesting how ext4 isn't even marked (EXPERIMENTAL)
Almindor: what's the priority thing?
Almindor: I mean there's also how severe the bug is, so what's priority?
maligor: how badly it affects your use
Milyardo: reat Article on plymouth Micheal, hopefully soon after plymouth someone finishes that OpenGL accelerated GDM they've been planning on doing forever(I don't know whats stopping them from doing it now though :P)
Milyardo: *Michael, sorry
Plouj: michaellarabel: the plymouth article is something I like to see on phoronix - visual guide of new features in Free Software
Milyardo: michaellarabel: Raptor started to pull from git but stopped on heads/pts-gui again :( I'm assuming you just reverted whatever change you made last night
Ivanovic: (back from the google summer of code mentor summit at the google hq)
Ivanovic: was interesting, the lead sdl dev was around, too (the one guy working for blizzard at Wow)
michaellarabel: Welcome back Ivanovic
Ivanovic: that is i also asked sam what he thinks is needed for blizzard to create a linux binary
Ivanovic: this did not sound good at all...
michaellarabel: What did he say?
Ivanovic: 500000 copies for the platform needed
Deanjo: Could be done
redeeman: they already have a linux binary
Deanjo: On a game such as WoW I don't see a 1/2 million being an issue
redeeman: it's a good bet theres already more playing through wine than on osx
redeeman: it's very likely
redeeman: MANY are using it
Deanjo: Very Doubtful
redeeman: and remember, many apples are with extremely underpowered graphics
Deanjo: It doesn't take a powerhouse to run Wow
redeeman: no but intel integrated does not do it
redeeman: neither does the very lowend integrated chipsets from nvidia/ati
redeeman: and certainly not 2 years back
Deanjo: I know a lot of people doing just that
redeeman: you would be very surprised if you knew the extent people are running wow through wine
redeeman: as you may be aware, i wrote a somewhat popular guide to having it work, where i provided patch to wine to work around an nvidia issue
Deanjo: Hell I know alot of people running it on P4's and Athlon XP's with 3-4 year old cards
redeeman: and i actually had people coming knocking on my door wanting me to set it up for them
redeeman: because their pc's werent fast enough using winblows, but using wine it was just good enough
Ivanovic: and currently they do sell the windows and mac binary seperately
redeeman: it's on the same cd?
redeeman: or atleast a cd in same package?
Ivanovic: is it really?
redeeman: yes it is
Deanjo: Yup, I think the EA games are the same now too
Ivanovic: wow, this really suprises me...
Ivanovic: at least regarding mac games i thought it took most companies quite some extra time till the mac one was out
Deanjo: Used to be
Deanjo: It's steadily improving on the Mac side
Milyardo: Blizzard could "leak" a copy of the Linux client. I'm sure then Blizzard will have no trouble figuring out the number of Linux users playing WoW on Linux
maligor: they can't
maligor: they patch it all the time
Deanjo: That would be immoral
maligor: they'd have to leak all the time
Kano: Milyardo: that free cxoffice gamer has got a wow profile *g*
Milyardo: I meant if they were really curious how many users are really using Linux
Milyardo: leak a copy and watch the server logs
maligor: considering blizzards track record on "hackers", I doubt too many would
Deanjo: I believe they can tell already are running on wine as it is.
Deanjo: *who are running
Milyardo: Can they?
Deanjo: I seem to recall something to that effect
Milyardo: Because Whenever Blizzard does their hardware survey for me it crashes Wine when I'm using the -opengl switch
Milyardo: That always implied to me they can't tell if I use Wine
Deanjo: lol Crashes probably are counted as wine users then
Milyardo: Assuming some info is still sent to them before the crash :P
Deanjo: The crashlog
Milyardo: Apperently Valve can tell though
Milyardo: Didn't they realease some stats on Wine users?
Naib: did they? mmmm might have to install HL2 in wine then
Milyardo: Yeah, unfortunately they used it against us
Naib: oh as in "see the numbers are sooo low, no point in supporting linux"
Deanjo: Heh, poor Codeweavers, once again "Free as in Beer" stomps of "Free as in Speech"
Milyardo: and Justified ?
Deanjo: It's probably the most Dugg linux story in recent history concerning a software release for linux
Plouj: fat laty video get more diggs
Plouj: "I can't imagine a President being named Obama"
Deanjo: You certainly don't see wine releases being dugg like this
Deanjo: In less then 24 hours it's just about caught up to the Wine 1.0 announcement
maligor: I wonder what kind of mac/linux statistics they've gotten
Deanjo: Probably less of a factor on macs. Many people use parallels or Fusion for gaming on OS X
maligor: heh, tried virtualbox desktopless mode a few days back
maligor: it is still slower than native
Deanjo: That's going to be pretty much always the case with any solution
maligor: wine theoretically has no such issues
Deanjo: I do have to admit though that VMWare 6.5 runs Command and Conquer 3 and NWN2 a lot smoother then it is possible in wine and kin
Milyardo: Yet on the Otherhand
Milyardo: Warcraft III runs better in Wine with opengl then it does in XP with d3d (XP with opengl still is the faster :P)
Milyardo: Not really a fair comparision though :(
Deanjo: Hard to say alot of the time if the slowdowns are from wine or just flaky things like video drivers
michaellarabel: Deanjo: It was the Logitech G15 keyboard you had, correct?
michaellarabel: Cool. I may have a PTS module for it soon... Looks like a sponsor is sending out a G15, so I'll then write a module to show benchmarking stats on it.
michaellarabel: Does the G15 use lcdproc or which driver for the display?
Deanjo: It can use LCDProc
michaellarabel: Is there a better driver or what?
maligor: noticed another keyboard with lcd just recently
Deanjo: Well LCDProc will allow the display to be used across multiple LCD's
maligor: looks kinda better than g15
Deanjo: With the G15 you still require the g15daemon to be installed
Deanjo: If you were just writing for the Logitech LCD's then all you need is the G15 daemon which can display on their keyboards and speakers
maligor: must be running on a microcontroller too since they mention 40MHz operation
Deanjo: Ya that keyboard would more then likely use the controller for the the memory functions
redeeman: why would people want a keyboard with lcd in?
redeeman: it makes no sense
redeeman: what's next? a cdrom drive with humidty display?
Deanjo: I find it handy, system monitors are great
redeeman: in the keyboard?
Deanjo: A lot more convenient then having a applet on the monitor or a lcd screen on the case
Deanjo: Plus using apps like amarok are nice as well not having to minimize and maximize all the time now
maligor: shame most apps use fullscreen with grab
maligor: Savage 2 doesn't and it's actually perfectly playable
maligor: exclusive input grab
maligor: I usually have savage2 running on some workspace and I can switch to another workspace with hotkeys :P
maligor: fast and convinient
Deanjo: Games is another area where I like the LCD, in NWN2 it keeps track of your attributes meaning it's one less menu item I have to have open while playing
maligor: err.. what attributes?
maligor: the problem with that is that it's preferrable to actually look at the monitor instead of the keyboard
Deanjo: HP, Stamina, etc etc
Deanjo: My keyboard and monitor are well within my field of view that I don't have to move my eyes really
redeeman: my keyboard is not in my view
redeeman: my monitor is
redeeman: well.. not in a properly focused area anyway
maligor: it's a shame they had to move to d3d in nwn2, could've just used the old engine
redeeman: you mean a shame they CHOOSE to use d3d
Deanjo: Ya they could have done some heavy upgrading to the old. It worked for The Witcher
redeeman: or written a new opengl engine?
Deanjo: But like every other game, openGL is just one small factor in the decision to port
Deanjo: If it was just openGL that was the determining factor we would have hundreds, if not thousands of commercial games
maligor: hopefully opengl will become more popular with mac
maligor: and the fact that d3d 10 requires vista ;)
Deanjo: openGL is very popular as it is, with the exception of Windows and Xbox everything else uses OGL
Milyardo: OGL itsn't that bad on Windows either, granted you don't use MS's implementation
redeeman: besides, an engine can easily be replaced
Deanjo: (well PS3 can use ogl but most games are written for it's proprietary API)
redeeman: tghe reason we don't have linux releases is because the game studios for some reason does not want to
Deanjo: Well, the market size hurts linux too
Milyardo: because of the cost?
Milyardo: granted a well written application really won't add much cost
Milyardo: but its still a cost
Milyardo: and thats all that matter
Deanjo: Ya, that as well, as well as the shortage of qualified OGL coders, and support staff costs
redeeman: no, all that should matter is profit
redeeman: and if you take world of warcraft
redeeman: it's basically 100% garantueed that atleast 100k linux users would use a native linux client
redeeman: pair that with $20 each month
redeeman: that more than makes up for the cost
redeeman: what we need is the linux wow users to stop use wine
redeeman: and quit the game
Milyardo: Wouldn't matter
redeeman: then they wouldn't get their money
Milyardo: blizzrd makes insane profits either way
Milyardo: Whats an extra 2mil a month when you're already amking 40
Deanjo: If the cost of operation to support the platform is higher percentage wise then the other platforms the beancounters will say forget about supporting it.
redeeman: the support cost is tiny
Milyardo: I'm sure it'd break even, but the cost is still disporpotionate
Milyardo: for 100k linux users you only need 2 spport tech :D
redeeman: also, even if they declared the linux binaries "unsupported" as such, it wouldn't matter
redeeman: people wouldn't care
redeeman: the vast majority of the "support" is ingame crap anyway
redeeman: even the much smaller % of people needing their content restored because of "hacking" would affect positively too
Deanjo: redeeman, like in the book industries, big publishers will not put out a product that they feel will not make that Golden Percentage point in sales
redeeman: but much more importantly
redeeman: Deanjo: and that is because they are stupid
redeeman: small minded morons
Deanjo: Stupid, but it works
redeeman: yes they make a green number at the bottom
redeeman: but that number could be bigger
redeeman: and due to effects they probably don't even think about
redeeman: consider this, is blizzard hires 10 more people and even if it ONLY breaks even with linux
redeeman: that's 10 people competitors does not have
redeeman: that in itself is a major thing for blizzard
redeeman: they have the expertise of 10 people at zero cost
redeeman: and their competitors does not
Deanjo: Having a expertise in a area of no profit is still no motivation for them to acquire them
redeeman: it would profit
redeeman: but all im saying is, no matter what, it's only good for them
Deanjo: Not in a manner that they are used too though
redeeman: abnd so what?
redeeman: the bottom line is, whomever owns blizzard gets a higher number on his bank account
redeeman: and even if he only gets the exact same amount
redeeman: if you asked any reasonable person
redeeman: "would you like to do something nice for these people? all you have to do is say Yes, it will cost you nothing", what would their answer be?
Deanjo: Bottom line is to the beancounters is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
redeeman: and that's why they are shortsighted morons that deserve to be put in jail
Deanjo: Be as it might, it is the times we live in
Milyardo: thats a little extreme :P
Milyardo: But yes Coporate Culture in America is not a good thing
Deanjo: If there was such great profit in linux gaming don't you think there would be dedicated studio's and publishers around for it?
redeeman: you are twisting the issue
redeeman: theres profit to be had on for example wow
redeeman: because the extreme majority of the cost is not in the stinking client binary
Deanjo: LGP pales in comparison to even Mac publishers Milyardo
Deanjo: I mean really, they can't even pay coders a salary
redeeman: and what are they selling? old overpriced(well.. more expensive) ports of antiquated games
redeeman: that is far from the same thing
Milyardo: I don't think it has to do with that at all either
Milyardo: They lack Martketing
Deanjo: Take a look at Aspyr, they can afford to get the big titles AND pay salaries to people porting them
redeeman: you are still talking about an entirely different thing
Milyardo: If LGP could had TV commercials, Banners on XFire, appeared at Huge 500man LANS, and spodored by everyone and their grandma
Milyardo: I think LGP would be fair off
Milyardo: but outside of phoronix
Milyardo: few Linux users have heard of LGP
Deanjo: You think Aspyr does those?
redeeman: mac is a very different target
Milyardo: They have big titles to to work with
redeeman: but consider this
redeeman: i browsed lgp
Milyardo: They get half of their marketing from the equivlent windows version
redeeman: i really wanted to buy some games to well.. have a few hours of fun, plus support then
redeeman: so i browsed their catalog
redeeman: mostly nothing i have ever heard of
redeeman: antiquated 1990 stuff
redeeman: which i most certainly am not interrested in buying
redeeman: and now they are even going DRM
Deanjo: Milyardo, Aspyr was just as small as LGP in the beginning
Milyardo: Every publisher was as small as LGP in the beggining
Deanjo: In fact on some titles they farm out port development as well
Milyardo: For me, when I think of LGP, I still think of what happened to Loki and what a mess that was
Milyardo: that could have something to with it too
Deanjo: By the same developer none the less :P
Deanjo: It certainly doesn't help that LGP's site looks like a Frontpage 95 created site as well
redeeman: i think it's more a question of the material
Deanjo: (or the fact that one minute the site is up the next it's not)
Deanjo: The overall impression that gets slapped on a person off the bat is that it is being ran inside of a basement or garage
Milyardo: What they need is an investor with deep pockets who see's value in taking a risk with LGP
Milyardo: And a reputation among game communities
Milyardo: and plublishers
Milyardo: I can't think of anyone who would fit that bill
Milyardo: but thats what they need
Deanjo: They need to find a venture capitalist for sure. Even if they promote it as a tax write off
Deanjo: Or they need to be taken under the wing with the linux distro's with the big bucks, ie Redhat, Novell
redeeman: what they need to realize is that "candy crusher" just isn't gonna fly for linux users in this year
Deanjo: lol or Ballistix
Milyardo: I thought about buying X3 a while ago
Milyardo: but its too alte now
Milyardo: spent my money on new hardware
Deanjo: People want titles that will exploit their system hardware
maligor: I want strategy and rpg :P
Deanjo: Even that doesn't really push a system
maligor: I probably pay 80eur for a game like supcom :P
redeeman: i think a good chance for a small game company is clones of old games
Milyardo: It didn't sell to Well on Windows either :P
redeeman: like NES/Amiga
redeeman: with some more modern graphics, possibly SVG, but keeping the spirit
redeeman: games were fun back then, not "look how big my gun is, i have 10000 fps!"!!!"
Milyardo: LGP could fork Wesnoth
Milyardo: and come up with something semi Orignial
Deanjo: See if they were on the ball and co-operated with "Project Offset" and got the game out for linux at the same time there would be an accomplishment
maligor: wesnoth is pretty nice but doesn't really compare to supcom
Milyardo: Which is why they'd fork
Deanjo: Seeing a "New" linux game title with a system requirement of a P166 is hardly encouraging
Deanjo: That shit belongs on a cellphone
maligor: loki did port big games
Deanjo: Ya loki was on the right track if it wasn't for the crooks involved
Milyardo: Yeah what happened with Loki proboly why Linux gaming is so bad
Deanjo: Like the port of Prey, I'm not going to fork down $40 for a title that I can grab in the bargin bin for $5 and down load the binary instead
Ivanovic: Milyardo: you do know that forking and making it a commercial product is difficult if the software is GPL
Deanjo: Ideally game engines would be opensourced and only the creative content be sold
Ivanovic: that is: i would probably be one of the first asking for the code changes...
Deanjo: lol, isn't that how the mess with Cedega started Ivanovic
Ivanovic: Deanjo: no
Ivanovic: in those days wine was bsd
Ivanovic: under this license you do not have to provide your changes
Deanjo: Right, but the hard feelings still exist
redeeman: Ivanovic: commercial does not mean closed.
maligor: I doubt anyone would mind if someone sold 'adventure packs' for wesnoth
Deanjo: and people still feel that Transgaming ripped off the wine group
maligor: they'd still have to be exceptionally good stuff to sell :P
redeeman: Deanjo: that is because transgamings activities, while impossible to prove, it's very likely they have, and continue to, steal from wine
Deanjo: maligor, sale of the creative content is the key. People don't buy games for the engine
redeeman: or access to the server
Deanjo: Expansion packs do very well on that premises
Deanjo: If the engines were all opensourced you can pretty much guarantee that games would be ported to every known platform
redeeman: and optimized
redeeman: theres really no reason everyone should not do it
Deanjo: Sell the content not the engine
redeeman: unfortunately the people making the choices are idiots
redeeman: and shouldn't be allowed to decide anything
redeeman: not even their own meals
Deanjo: Well the reason is that engine developers make more off the engine licensing then the actual games
Milyardo: Its competative nature
Milyardo: "My game content sux but I has a better engine"
Milyardo: "To sell to everyone else"
Milyardo: case id
Deanjo: Epic for example is more of a engine developer then a game developer
Deanjo: As is iD
Milyardo: That model has it benifits
Milyardo: it allows one group to focus on the engine
Milyardo: and one to focus on content
Deanjo: Of course you could create a license that says if your going to release a commercial game for the engine, paid licensing must be forwarded
Milyardo: That becomes difficult to enforce when people start forking
redeeman: not really
Milyardo: "its a whole new engine because we changed the title"
Deanjo: free for personal use, licensing for commercial use
redeeman: that's not difficult at all
Deanjo: There are plenty of apps out there that use that type of license already Milyardo
Deanjo: ie Winzip for example
redeeman: fucking winzip
redeeman: it's amazing people buy that crap
Deanjo: I'm just using it as an example redeeman, not endorsing it, no need for a rant
redeeman: i didn't say you endorsed it, i just said it's crap
Milyardo: lol Winzip
Deanjo: I like licenses like Norton has that allows the license to be transferred to charity.
Deanjo: And then claim it as a tax deduction
redeeman: if it were up to me symantec would be forcibly shut down
Deanjo: You guys read about that guy that got 10 grand for reading the EULA
Deanjo: lol I laughed my ass off
Deanjo: Proved a pretty good point though
Deanjo: Hardly anyone reads them
redeeman: which is probably why people do not object
maligor: got 10 grand why?
maligor: first to read gets 10 grand?
redeeman: the eula said that the first to contact would get it
maligor: oh, heh
redeeman: and after months someone read it
maligor: eula's are useful as toiletpaper if they provided paper copies
Deanjo: I think EULA's should be made so you have to click on certain key words throughout the EULA before it allows installation
redeeman: i wouldn't use such shit to wipe my ass
maligor: Deanjo, they aren't binding here
redeeman: not here either
maligor: since they don't constitute as a contract
Deanjo: Ya but that is not the case everywhere
redeeman: any restrictions here must be made in a contract agreed to at the time of purchase
maligor: like in the US :P
redeeman: well.. get a better country then
Milyardo: Buyme a plane ticket redeeman, I'll move in
Deanjo: In some countries it's illegal to reverse engineer as well
Milyardo: Then we can rant toghter
Milyardo: That law needs to be changed
redeeman: Milyardo: i would, but in my country slavery is illegal, so i have no compelling reason to do so :D
Deanjo: (most notably the US again)
Milyardo: Trade secrets should be illegal
Milyardo: if you can't get a patent on it
Milyardo: its not worth keeping a secret
Milyardo: for any other reason than to be anti-comptetative
Deanjo: "Free" software stops becoming truly free as soon as any license gets put onto it
Naib: too many FOSS zealots
redeeman: unfortunately as long as not everyone acts properly you have to have some restrictions
Deanjo: As soon as there are restrictions, it will never be truly free
redeeman: just like we need laws, or people would do all sorts of stuff they shouldn't
redeeman: be that as it may, it is a required evil as long as people does not know how to conduct themselves properly given 100% freedom
Deanjo: Well I guess the public domain license would be the exception
redeeman: im sure the law saying "you cannot rape" was invented due to a need :P
maligor: that'd require 100% literacy for one
maligor: except for babies
maligor: unless you can get literacy embedded into the human genes somehow
Milyardo: Well companies wouldn't screw so many people over if they weren't so Anti-competative
Deanjo: That's why I thing the FSF should be renamed to "The Limited Restriction Foundation
redeeman: Deanjo: you cannot argue with the GPL's freedom for the end user
redeeman: that is, after all, the vast majority of users
redeeman: the ones that are actually gonna USE it for anything other than distribution
redeeman: would you also have us stop use the description "free country" and use "limited restriction country" ?
Deanjo: Truly free code allows me to cut and paste and do what I see fit without any restriction
maligor: Milyardo, heh, yeah, it's funny how the whole concept works badly with software
redeeman: free for YOU yes
redeeman: what about your fellow man?
maligor: a well crafted chair is a well crafted chair, no matter what brand it is
Deanjo: The word "Free" explicitly means "without restriction"
redeeman: and you can use it however you feel like it
maligor: Deanjo, what does gpl restrict? :P
maligor: your right not to have to distribute the sources?
Milyardo: Alot of things
redeeman: maligor: distribution
Deanjo: No I can't, if I use the code I have to make that code available to everyone. That is a restriction
redeeman: you most certainly do not, Deanjo
redeeman: i use lots of gpl code i have forked
redeeman: and i need not give it to anyone
redeeman: and i do not intend to
maligor: because it's such dreadful drivel?
redeeman: besides, if it were true what you described, it wouldn't be a restriction, but an obligation, fortunately it's not true
Milyardo: The GPL restricts the Distrobution of *binaries*
Ivanovic: if you *publish* the project you have to
Milyardo: so that may not be distributed without source
redeeman: Ivanovic: to the people you publish to
Ivanovic: that is: if you just use it for your own sake you are perfectly fine to not publish any code
maligor: Milyardo, inclusive restriction :P
Ivanovic: Milyardo: they are allowed to be distributed without the code
maligor: yeah, you only have to provide it if asked
Ivanovic: *but* when asking for the code you have to deliver it with no more costs than the "original product"
Ivanovic: that is: you can ask for the money needed to eg ship a disk with the stuff on it if the costs are below what you took for the software
Deanjo: Yup that is why when you purchase a retail version of a linux distro you are actually paying for the support and possibly a printed manual
redeeman: and the effort to compile the binaries
Ivanovic: the support and the creation of the bundle
Ivanovic: (plus maybe a nice manual)
Ivanovic: and since those people are smart, they also directly do ship the gpl sources
Deanjo: And case stickers :P
Ivanovic: then they got no extra need to ship the stuff when asked
Deanjo: Or they just have the sources on the ftp
Ivanovic: Deanjo: no, this does *not* qualify
redeeman: with gplv3 it does
Ivanovic: you have to deliver the stuff to the people the same way
redeeman: it's one of the many nice things about it
Ivanovic: redeeman: and many projects are still following gpl2, at least the kernel is and will stay there
redeeman: but even with gplv2, that isn't entirely true
redeeman: the gpl version 2 just states that you need to give a written offer for the source code, provided you don't ship directly
redeeman: it does not state HOW you must distribute the code, in the event of a request
Deanjo: Right, they can provide it via electronic or hard media
PetoKraus: i still can't see why linux will stay gpl2
redeeman: because it would be a big job to move
redeeman: and torvalds doesn't really care about the end users freedom
Deanjo: Plus Torvalds doesn't care too much for Stallmans antics
redeeman: that is to say, torvalds looks out for torvalds
Deanjo: I have to respect that right. Nobody should be forced to adhere to someones else's ideology on ones IP
Ivanovic: PetoKraus: the reason is simple:
Ivanovic: the kernel is licensed explicitly as gpl v2, not as gpl v2 or later
Ivanovic: and for a license change you have to have the agreement from *all* people working on it
Ivanovic: and on the kernel *many* people worked and some of those do not like everything in gplv3
Deanjo: lol and we all know how often all the developers agree
Ivanovic: yes, this is another point
redeeman: some people don't even know shit about gplv3, but buys into the lies about gplv3 disallowing drm and stuff
Ivanovic: sometimes they seem to also just disagree for the sake of having one disagree
Deanjo: plus there is parts that would have to be replaced because they cannot find the original developer
PetoKraus: i just pictured image of Reiser....
Deanjo: What I wish they would do though is make their cleaning up of the kernel go a bit faster on the depreciated stuff )ie:FreeOSS
RobbieAB: And re-implementation may be difficult due to the definitions of deriviative work...
Deanjo: That sucker has been hanging around too long in the kernel
Deanjo: open sound system
PetoKraus: don't they want to put the new version in?
Deanjo: Not likely to happen unless a completely uncrippled version comes around in opensource
Deanjo: Even then, alsa provides compatibility for OSS anyways
PetoKraus: i didn't follow this, obviously
PetoKraus: and personally, i don't have a problem with alsa... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Deanjo: Ya, ALSA has been more solid for me then OSS ever was
Deanjo: The API does need to be re looked at though.
Deanjo: There is no real reason why PulseAudio's features couldn't have been incorporated straight into ALSA
Deanjo: IMHO those improvement efforts should have been put into ALSA instead of another audio layer
redeeman: does anyone know how to disable disk cache in gimp?
Deanjo: No idea
Deanjo: I tend to use Paintshop Pro in wine.
Deanjo: !seen Kano
Deanjo: Bah no bots
cxo: Deanjo, so have you self promoted yourself to #phoronix Support Manager?
Deanjo: lol, not until I see a damn paycheck
cxo: better start coursing michael to do apple articles, then he'll need you
redeeman: who would want crapple crap?
cxo: if i bought a macpro for example, i'd run Linux on it for sure
redeeman: that would be an insane thing to buy
Deanjo: Funny how the Vista ads have just bred a new wave of "How Vista is doomed" articles
RobbieAB: Well, if they need to run Vista ads at this point, it clearly is in trouble.
RobbieAB: wants an old PowerMac
cxo: they should have just positioned Vista as a premium product and left it at that instead of trying to take over the world again
cxo: would have bought a mac if it was still ppc
Deanjo: I wouldn't
RobbieAB: cxo: problem with Vista is it isn't XP.
RobbieAB: XP, for all it's flaws, after 5 years as the standard, was pretty much accepted, even by the geeks.
Deanjo: Honestly if they brought back pricing to like it was with DOS Vista would have taken off
cxo: yes, so leave XP as-is and just sell Vista as a different product altogether instead of some progressive upgrade
RobbieAB: cxo: so no one adopts.
cxo: why ?
maligor: they did make a improved version of xp
Deanjo: The biggest problem with Vista is that for 300-400 dollars your not really getting a whole lot more that XP can't handle
RobbieAB: Because XP is good enough, people liked XP, and what did Vista give them?
maligor: that windows fundamentals for legacy PCs
cxo: Apple gets away by selling crap at premium prices, just because it looks good, Microsoft should learn from the underdog
maligor: it's like windows 2000 except updated
RobbieAB: Couple that with the flak Vista caught for DRM, the problems with compatability with XP, Vista was always going to have a hard sell.
cxo: RobbieAB, it wouldnt be for people who thought XP was good-enough, like i said, it should have been positioned as a premium-product and incomparable to any previous OS
Deanjo: Window compositing caused a lot of grief for older apps
RobbieAB: cxo: and would have failed as the enthusiast market who you need to sell it to wouldn't have touched it.
cxo: RobbieAB, unlikely
Deanjo: Getting rid of sound acceleration was a mistake too
RobbieAB: If you want to sell an OS to the consumer world, you need the gamers
RobbieAB: And the gamers would not have touched it if XP had remained a viable long term option.
Deanjo: Gamers set the trend that the home consumer follows
cxo: go Wine!
Deanjo: Smartest thing MS did was invent DirectX
cxo: did you see on the appdb, guys are playing Crysis on wine
RobbieAB: The games studios would not have jumped to Vista if XP remained a viable concern, simply because the majority of PCs would have stuck with XP.
RobbieAB: There fore the gamers would have stuck with Vista.
Deanjo: remembers the initial skepticism with DirectX
RobbieAB: ergo Vista fails.
Deanjo: "Run games in windows? Are you nuts? That's gonna suck the performance of the game."
Deanjo: *out of
redeeman: at that time you didn't have an extra gigabyte of ram to squander
redeeman: or a few extra 3ghz cpu's
Deanjo: DX games ran fine in Win95 when compared to their dos counterparts
redeeman: you can be sure that wouldn't be true if the game required that extra bit of ram win95 required, and thus had to swap in the main loop :P
Deanjo: It was the "hybrids" that were supposed to be Windows games but simply used the DOS shell that gave the headaches
Deanjo: hated NHL 96 for that
Deanjo: There were so many DOS games out there at that time that you needed to squeeze every bit of lower mem for it and if you were unlucky enough not to be running an actual soundblaster you were shit out of luck
Deanjo: Vista isn't close to being MS's worst OS, those honors still belong to DOS 4 and Win ME
cxo: WinME rocked ass man, what are you saying
cxo: ME just blazed
Deanjo: Put down the crack pipe and step away slowly from the computer cxo :P
Deanjo: Heh, The Crossover announcement has been Dugg more now then the Wine 1.0 release
Deanjo: Even more Diggs then the first looks of Windows 7
cxo: OMG!! PONIES!!! free software!!! OMG!!
Deanjo: I see Shuttleworth is saying there is no money in desktop linux too now.
cxo: I'm sure there is a place in hell for people who do this http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08/10/28/1448207.shtml
Deanjo: lol why?
Deanjo: try's to recall who was saying that linux doesn't support Vcore stepping on Phenoms
PetoKraus: michaellarabel: ping?
PetoKraus: michaellarabel: just because i felt like wasting time, I did rough comparison of the two schedulers in kernel 2.6.27 - CFQ and Anticipatory. I was using the computer while benchmarking, so it's not exact, but the results are at about the same. well, judge yourself
Deanjo: Ya I haven't seen much difference between AS and CFQ
PetoKraus: the difference in the userland is big, tho
PetoKraus: at least in my case...
Deanjo: AS makes my wine games chug like hell every time the HD is accessed
PetoKraus: i got quite the opposite...
Deanjo: Which is really annoying when your playing a RTS
PetoKraus: with AS i got better user experience than with CFQ...
Deanjo: Maybe it's because of my raid, who knows
PetoKraus: is that HW raid?
redeeman: CFQ is broken atm
PetoKraus: redeeman: what's "atm"
PetoKraus: which kernel version, etc...
redeeman: it might be fixed in .27
redeeman: but .25 is definetly broken, and i believe .26 aswell
Deanjo: No dmraid PetoKraus
PetoKraus: right. good night guys/gals
RobbieAB: PetoKraus: the real difference for a lot of games is not the average over time, but the maximum, and even more importantly, the minimum.
cxo: the max doesnt matter, the minimum and average is more important. And minimum is also questionable because it could just be caused by jitter
RobbieAB: Yeah, but the minimum is also the one that you will care about in a game.
RobbieAB: Because you can trust Mr Murphy to ensure it will hit at the worst possible moment.
Deanjo: So negative