Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-06-28
Kano: does anybody know of a desktop board which uses N100 + intel chipset besides sculltrail?
Kano: skulltrail is based on X48,so basically it should be possible...
maligor: can't find any from the big names?
Kano: well maybe it is more easy to sell 750i/780i ;)
maligor: hmm.. these hd 4870 benchmarks looks funky
Kano: well now you have the choice, 4870 or physx with nvidia 8+
Kano: but somebody already hacked a physx/cuda wrapper for ati
maligor: yeah, and you can get 2x 4870 with the price of a gtx 280
Kano: and make amd even richer ;)
maligor: can't imagine who would buy a gtx 280 now
Kano: nobody would
Kano: but 2x 260 maybe
maligor: gtx 260 seems to be nearly 100 eur more expensive here than 4870
Kano: a 9800 gtx(+) is fast enough too for most games
maligor: I wonder if nvidia will make a gddr5 version of gtx 280
maligor: it already has pretty impressive bandwidth, but the cost would become astronomical too
Kano: well they dont need ddr5 when they use 448 or 512 wide memory bus
maligor: but stuffing ddr5 would double bandwidth, or so they claim
Kano: hi michaellarabel
michaellarabel: vadi2: Hi
michaellarabel: Another one of the latest companies to jump onboard with PTS is: http://www.unigine.com/ we've been working with them on a specialized build and it's turning out quite well
vadi2: ooh they're russian.
vadi2: wow. very nice. cross-platform game engines ftw :)
Kano: any game with that engine?
michaellarabel: This new update coming can pound a RV770 harder than ET:QW on Linux.
michaellarabel: Kano: Not sure...
vadi2: well, no. it's up to the game makers.
vadi2: but at least we won't be having the reverse.
vadi2: which is very common these days :\
Kano: a few unknown ones are listed
vadi2: what I'm confused about is the pricing
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: spammer in the forum: nickname: qubus
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: Should be taken care of, thanks.
Ivanovic: you're welcome
vadi2: I don't suppose anyone has those movie stereo glasses?
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: Do you happen to have the modified working UT2004 benchmarking scripts? I got around to it yesterday again and forgot where I had left off before with remembering to change the strings of true/false to 0/1, etc, but I had two separate sets of scripts from you to begin with, etc.
Ivanovic: just a second
Ivanovic: i don't have the correct files at hand but i know how the lines got to look like
Ivanovic: use these as reference:
Ivanovic: http://rafb.net/p/oPYM5J69.html (benchmark script iterating over the single ones)
Ivanovic: http://rafb.net/p/XInVq824.html (single benchmark call)
Ivanovic: http://rafb.net/p/S2X7Vh25.html (single benchmark call flyby)
michaellarabel: Ubuntu 8.10 Alpha 1 Preview: http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=12543
vadi2: Hm. 'Microsoft Startup Accelerator' program. Bleh, why does ms have to be so rich?
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: is this enough info, or do you need more?
Ivanovic: the profile file should be in the tarball you got, changed nothing there
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: It should be fine, permitting I remember everything when I get around to actually testing it.
Ivanovic: you maybe want to provide several files (two per res supported)
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: have you added any new deps lately to pts?
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: No. Aside from PTS 1.2 if you have a separate package for php-pcntl
Ivanovic: with other words: do i have to update the list of "optional packages to automatically install system wide"
Ivanovic: that is in the git version php is required with pcntl ?
mha: When I see that brown interface I think about poop
maligor: the bright white texts are a bit off in it
maligor: strikes to me more like bark
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: And with the php-pctnl, it's not a critical part, and it will complain cleanly if that extension isn't present. It's used for multi-threading the modules.
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: i made it a dep in the gentoo package
Ivanovic: that is all i wanted to know, if it is needed/used or not
michaellarabel: Ivanovic: Okay
michaellarabel: PTS 1.0.2 will be released today with a few fixes and it now has a man page.
Ivanovic: hmm, okay, then i will have to find out how to handle manpages correctly...
cxo: MANPATH=/opt/pts/docs man pts
cxo: or if you have automake, man_MANS = pts.8
cxo: and it will figure it out by itself
cxo: i've been wanting to do that for a while now, the installer...
cxo: michaellarabel, you need an installer?
michaellarabel: cxo: There is an installer script already, but if you have any improvements to it, go for it.
cxo: if its rolled up with autoconf/automake, then it can be thrown into a src.rpm really easily
cxo: ok sure
cxo: when is the release coming out?
cxo: i'll work off that
michaellarabel: Today probably
cxo: oh i'll use git
michaellarabel: If you use git, be sure to git-checkout master
cxo: whats the git url?
michaellarabel: since its defaulting to trondheim-12 for some reason right now
cxo: i'll clone master
Ivanovic: michaellarabel: and you could mention how to get the git version on the ptx.com downloads page...
vadi2: they are there
vadi2: 'Detailed installation instructions are included in the online documentation.' 'Git Development Repository'
cxo: that just leads to the web viewer
cxo: hey michaellarabel whats the url man?
michaellarabel: for git? http://www.phoronix-test-suite.com/repo/phoronix-test-suite.git
Lightkey: I am the url man!
cxo: when pts downloads and runs stuff, where does it do it?
cxo: good stuff
cxo: michaellarabel, how does that work?
cxo: i get an error when i clone from that url
michaellarabel: what do you mean?
cxo: git uses ssh, you gave me a http link
michaellarabel: do you have curl installed?
michaellarabel: git can work over HTTP if you have curl
cxo: $ git-clone http://www.phoronix-test-suite.com/repo/phoronix-test-suite.git clone
cxo: Initialized empty Git repository in /home/vikky/Projects/pts/clone/.git/
cxo: Cannot get remote repository information.
cxo: Perhaps git-update-server-info needs to be run there?
michaellarabel: Just ran git-update-server-info manually. Try again
cxo: same thing
cxo: going for lunch
cxo: so how do i get the git repo?
michaellarabel: it's still not working for you?
cxo: same error
michaellarabel: oh, doh. http://www.phorogit.com/repo/phoronix-test-suite.git
michaellarabel: phorogit.com, not phoronix-test-suite.com :)
cxo: that works, put it on the website already
cxo: hmm i just see a bunch of md5s going by, i hope it downloads the repos :)
cxo: got ef654c4ea2822c69d9c8c236dc08e29cc10c59fa
cxo: got dba4d70adc7bd2475bdc58448bf6e27461e4af64
cxo: walk dba4d70adc7bd2475bdc58448bf6e27461e4af64
michaellarabel: it will
cxo: yup it worked
michaellarabel: did it default to trondheim-12 branch?
cxo: damn, it did
michaellarabel: git-checkout origin/master
cxo: how do i see what remote branch my local branch is tracking?
cxo: $ git-pull http://www.phorogit.com/repo/phoronix-test-suite.git
cxo: fatal: Couldn't find remote ref HEAD
uncle_fungus: have you already cloned the repo?
uncle_fungus: hmm, just a sec, I'm recloning the repo on my laptop now
cxo: how do i know what my local branch is tracking?
cxo: do i need to set the --track when creating my local branch?
uncle_fungus: if you just want to track the branches on phorogit, then no
uncle_fungus: as michael said, what is the output of "git branch"
cxo: ]$ git-branch -a
cxo: * trondheim-12
uncle_fungus: do "git checkout origin/master" then "git checkout -b master"
cxo: ok, i figured it out, you need to add the remote branch after your local branch
cxo: "git-branch local/master origin/master"
cxo: So the current master, what is its package name?
cxo: "pts", "pts-core","phoronix-test-suite" ? etc...
cxo: so i can roll the src.rpms
michaellarabel: cxo: What? The one package should be phoronix-test-suite
michaellarabel: look at pts-core/scripts/build-* files for more information on how its put together
uncle_fungus: let me know if the rpm script included doesn't work
cxo: god, README.html
cxo: hates that shit
vadi2: you've already told us that
michaellarabel: cxo: You're free to make a new version if you don't like the file.
cxo: vadi2, yeah i forgot about it
cxo: whats the contact email address?
cxo: for pts, what else?
michaellarabel: Do you mean the mailing list? Where to submit patches? What?
cxo: more like patches
michaellarabel: Mailing list would be best to send them to: firstname.lastname@example.org
uncle_fungus: hmm, michaellarabel, fresh clones from phorogit may have broken again
uncle_fungus: i'm getting errors about an object missing from the pack list which causes the clone to bomb out
michaellarabel: argh, I had rebased trondheim-12 branch against master with the PTS 1.0.2 release... I used a force command as it was complaining about an error, and it probably broke it further.
michaellarabel: it cloned fine for me
uncle_fungus: hmm, let me try it again
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: ok, all good now. Maybe it was a dodgy wireless connection...
cxo: whats svn revert in git?
Kano: git revert
cxo: its not the same
cxo: git-revert reverts a commit, how do you just restore a file to its HEAD revision
cxo: got it, git-diff && patch
redeeman: that will take up another changeset won't it?
cxo: if you try, vim file.spec (file doesnt exist), vim will open up a template for you
redeeman: mine doesent do that
michaellarabel: cxo: So what are you working on with PTS?
cxo: i finished the build system, now you can, ./configure && make && make install, or make dist && rpmbuild -tb phoronix-test-suit-git.tar.gz and it will drop out 2 rpms
cxo: but for some reason, the man page doesnt show up correctly, its like its corrupted or something
michaellarabel: figure out the man page issue, cxo?
cxo: i think it has to do with the way the man page is named, and the way man tries to interpret that..
michaellarabel: It's been working fine on Ubuntu.
cxo: just shows up as garbage for me
michaellarabel: What distro?
cxo: if i type phoronix-test-suite one more time, i'm going to die
michaellarabel: make a shortcut from pts then :)
vadi2: you can use the tab button
cxo: for a man page? for querying an rpm? i don think so
cxo: whats that do?
uncle_fungus: shift+insert, middle-click ;)
cxo: i sorted out my man page problem
michaellarabel: cxo: What was it?
cxo: your man page was a gzipped file, but according to GCS, only the distributed man page can be compressed, and its done automatically during installation, so it was compressing the already compressed file
michaellarabel: so it shouldn't be compressed by default? (First time making a man page)
cxo: man pages are typically generated during the build
cxo: with things like version numbers, authors, special flags, functionality etc.. injected into it
michaellarabel: well, this is a rather simplistic man page
cxo: so i'm emailing trondheim-pts right now, with my files..
cxo: vadi2, do you want a copy?
vadi2: of what
cxo: i pkg it all properly using autoconf/automake, so you can do rpmbuild -tb phoronix-test-suite-git.gz
vadi2: i'm on ubuntu, sorry
uncle_fungus: cxo I'd like a copy if you wouldn't mind
cxo: whats your email
cxo: vadi2, do you know how to write .deb control file?
michaellarabel: cxo: There's a deb file generated in the PHP Deb builder
cxo: email sent
cxo: michaellarabel, you sent me an email to a mailing list?
cxo: whats your email address man?
uncle_fungus: cxo cheers
michaellarabel: cxo: So I can generate a diff, you built this against a clean 1.0.2 build or..?
cxo: michaellarabel, master
cxo: i actually didnt touch the existing files and worked around the problems i had
cxo: like i extract the man page, before i give it to the build system
cxo: and i use "phoronix-test-suite" as an input file for my executable
cxo: but this was all done so it doesnt mess with the existing scripts
cxo: it can all be removed if a few files can be renamed and edited
michaellarabel: cxo: Do you have a list of the workarounds you did? So I can cleanly work in fixes
cxo: can i have your email address?
michaellarabel: michael [at] phoronix.com
Deanjo: Grrr, @#$%@#%@$ seagates
Deanjo: Stay away from seagates made in china
redeeman: mine are made in china :|
redeeman: it actually says "product of china"
redeeman: which scares me abit
Deanjo: 3rd one of mine just died
Deanjo: they last about 6 months
redeeman: where else does seagate produce?
cxo: seagate is cheapshit
redeeman: what would you suggest instead?
Deanjo: the ones made elsewhere seem to last
Deanjo: Hitachi's have been really reliable for me
redeeman: hitachi uses shitloads of power
redeeman: im currently looking at those 1tb samsung's
Deanjo: meh, it's a desktop, it does heavy loads power is not my concern
redeeman: well im thinking of for my next fileserver
Deanjo: I've had bad experiences with samsungs in the past
redeeman: ill be getting 10x1tb
cxo: WD is very reliable
redeeman: cxo: wd are bastards, i wouldn't buy from them untill they stop
Deanjo: looks over at the pile of dead raptors
cxo: i dont know about raptor
Deanjo: Enterprise grade my ass
michaellarabel: cxo: So what is it that you'll be emailing me for the build system?
starkmjolk: I had a dead raptor, sent it in and got a new in almost an instant
cxo: michaellarabel, its just a proof of concept of autoconf/automake for pts
michaellarabel: Yes, I got the files. But what about the workarounds you made within PTS, what are those? Was it just to do with the man compression?
Deanjo: Meanwhile I've got a pile of Maxtors in heavy load servers that have yet to fail me
cxo: michaellarabel, i emailed that too, but it came back, your email address has "fatal errors"
michaellarabel: email@example.com does?
Deanjo: The only maxtors I had issues with were those slimline 20/30/40 giggers they used to have
starkmjolk: the last maxtor I came in contact with was a diamondmax whatnot, had lots of software issues and wasn't very fast. was a few years ago though
cxo: michaellarabel, it parsed the Subject header, and saw a .exe in it and sent it back thinking it was a virus
Deanjo: It's actually the diamondmax that proved really reliable for me. I'll give up a bit of speed for reliability
michaellarabel: Just delete the exe then
redeeman: i've had a few maxtors fail
cxo: yup i did, it was added in by Forward somehow
redeeman: but generally an okay experience for me
Deanjo: eventually I had all brands fail on me but I expect that after 5+ yeras
cxo: i used to work for a company that did assembly for IBM and HP, and this is how the hard drives broke down to, from cheapest to best, Maxtor->Seagate->WD->IBM/HP
cxo: so we would put in Maxtors in the shit boxes, and Seagates in the slightly less shit ones, and so on, with IBM or HP drives eventually going into Server or high perf workstations
Deanjo: I've got this one seagate on a peltier plate right now trying to suck the data off of it. Once it warms up it fails
redeeman: google should release statistics
Deanjo: replace too many Deskstars back in the day
redeeman: hitachi drives are ibm's
redeeman: they bought it
cxo: in 2001
cxo: over a controversy
Deanjo: I know that, it was just one really bad series for them
Deanjo: the GXP line
cxo: IBM had a very large batch of bad drives those last couple of years
redeeman: i have an old 60gb ibm i believe it is, it sometimes clicks
Deanjo: I bought 4 of these Seagates 7200.11 drives 2 were made in china 2 were made in elsewhere. The china drives both failed and this replacement which was also in china failed
cxo: in Raid?
Deanjo: Just straight sata
cxo: i have 3 WDs running in raid for the past 4 yrs
Deanjo: I run my maxtors in sata
michaellarabel: cxo: What else would be involved in a complete upgrade to autoconf/automakr
cxo: the things i mentioned are really the only things worth noting
Deanjo: If you look at the retry rates on SMART on the china drives the error correction attempts is mindboggling
cxo: michaellarabel, we will need an AUTHORS, COPYING, README, ChangeLog and NEWS text files too
uncle_fungus: cxo, when you build the rpm on your system, what extension does the manpage take?
cxo: uncle_fungus, the final man page installed to your system should be phoronix-test-suite.1.gz
uncle_fungus: I've just run rpmbuild, which expects a .gz extension for the manpage, but the actual file has a .bz2 extension
michaellarabel: cxo: There is AUTHORS, COPYING, ChangeLog (but CHANGELOG) already.
Deanjo: Seagate says 4.3 million retries after 400 hours of use is about normal lol
cxo: uncle_fungus, can you pastebin the error from rpmbuild
Deanjo: michaellarabel, when you did the package list for opensuse did you test against a 32 or 64-bit build?
michaellarabel: cxo: Your work will go upstream into trondheim-12, but first I am going to hook in the new GUI right now since that will have some new files added and potentially some filename changes.
michaellarabel: Deanjo: 32
Deanjo: Ahh, kinda figured
michaellarabel: I can do 64 when time permits.
Deanjo: missing a few -32 bit libs for 64
michaellarabel: if you have a list of them, put it in the forums
Deanjo: but like I said in the forums, php5-posix has to be added as well
cxo: uncle_fungus, ok i know how to fix that, in the tarball there is a phoronix-test-suite.spec file in that file there will be a line %doc %_mandir/man1/phoronix-test-suite.1.gz, replace the "gz" with "*"
uncle_fungus: yeah, that's what I though
Deanjo: Ya I'm planning on doing a base install in a while. I'll keep a list of what is required
cxo: uncle_fungus, do automake --version
cxo: weird how it made a .bz for you and .gz for me
uncle_fungus: cxo,ok a few comments. php-gd needs to be added to the Requires. Also, you should probably add BuildArch: noarch to the spec file too to produce a noarch rpm rather than an i586 one (see build-package-rpm.php)
cxo: uncle_fungus, yup
cxo: whats php-gd?
uncle_fungus: the gd extensions for php. So pts can create its graphs
cxo: oh, i didnt have that, but i was able to get my graphs online
uncle_fungus: yeah, you need it to create local graphs
uncle_fungus: another question, on your system does your rpm automatically add pear as a dependency?
uncle_fungus: it does here, and it shouldn't be doing it.
cxo: i dont explicitly tell it to do that, it might be pulling it from your rpmdb
uncle_fungus: i know its not explicit, but somehow rpmlib thinks that pear(pts-core/functions/pts.php) is a dependency, when it obviously isn't
Deanjo: OMFG, POS seagate is drawing 3 A
Deanjo: That would explain the other drives disconnecting. Powersupply is protecting itself
Deanjo: I was transferring data from that drive and I could watch the others start disconnecting
cxo: thata a feature man, load balancing, seagate hard drives do that, didnt you know
Deanjo: that caused the data transfer to halt. Hooked up the drive to an old beefy PS I have and threw the meter on it. Now she's pumpng data
Deanjo: Ya great feature :P
cxo: i think 2 mini power supplies are better than 1 big room heater
Deanjo: That is what I have.
cxo: like 1 for peripherals, and one for boards
Deanjo: 2 600 watt OCZ's
cxo: cos disks have a large draw during spin up, if they dont have staggered spin up
Deanjo: I noticed upon reboot, raid detection was instant this time
Deanjo: My delay at the controller seeing the drives was because that POS was sucking the life out of the chain
Deanjo: forsees another seagate RMA headache
cxo: i 5 seagates in my box, with a amd64x2 4200+, and a 7600GS, and i go a 500watt psu, runs fine
Deanjo: 2 out of the 3 times I've RMA'd them they have said they have never received the drives
cxo: sorry i have 5 x WDs
Deanjo: I have to keep sending them the bill of lading and delivery confirmation
Deanjo: Buddy of mine was running a pair of caviars 80 Giggers in raid 0. Both drives failed within hours. first time I've seen that.
cxo: must have been faulty
Deanjo: Suspected PS or board. He slapped in a couple of hitachi's and life has been good
Deanjo: Ya probably a bad batch
Deanjo: the refurbs he got run fine too
cxo: BDs need to become cheaper
cxo: a BD-DL is like $15 a piece
Deanjo: I can tell you from Apple statistics that the drives with lowest % of failures have been the Maxtors
cxo: man mac users are single tasking
Deanjo: lol right
cxo: why do you have the centralised title bar then?
cxo: its not confused the ADD people
Deanjo: We are talking Xserves and MacPro's/PowerMacs
cxo: they still make Xservers?
cxo: and PowerMacs?
Deanjo: Hell ya, sell tonnes of them
Deanjo: No the powermac is the macpro now
Deanjo: and ya they sell really well too. It's hard to beat the price of a MacPro going spec for spec against other PC OEMS
Deanjo: We had this challenge the other night in this room. :D
cxo: i remember
cxo: and its tempted me to buy one
cxo: but then the next question is, 3yrs down the line, i can upgrade my IBM box, but the mac... thats another question
Deanjo: They are really nice machine's. And this is coming from a Apple employee who was told "Move, or find work elsewhere."
cxo: does it take standard PCI-E cards? or do i need a special Mac version
Deanjo: Ya standard PCI-e cards work.
cxo: i would really like to see the board on a MacPro before i buy it, but i dont think thats possible
Deanjo: Now if the manufacturer has drivers that's another story
cxo: i'd run linux most probably
Deanjo: The board on the MacPro is a generic intel server board
cxo: i'm too comfortable with linux to use anything else
Deanjo: (generic as in it's the same board that other OEMS use in their servers
cxo: oh really?
Deanjo: The only difference is that it also has EFI
cxo: does the EFI screw with pci cards that have their own bridges?
Deanjo: Na, works fine
cxo: do you have a mac pro?
Deanjo: Ya for another couple of months at least :P
cxo: could you open it and photograph it for me :)
starkmjolk: can't you get a decent workstation that you know isn't locked down like a macintosh cxo? :)
Deanjo: How is the MacPro locked?
cxo: i think he means expandability
cxo: for eg, my $40 case here, will let me put 6 hard drives in it,
starkmjolk: I don't know very much about modern macintoshes, but it's still apple. you buy complete product, not a personal computer for you to tinker with.
cxo: would i need to buy special harnesses to add new hardware etc..
Deanjo: Ya the mac pro only supports 4 sata drives
Deanjo: Stock that is
starkmjolk: and there are many many companies competing in that segment, I imagine it won't be hard to find a better deal if you don't want mac os
Deanjo: lol Try it
Deanjo: like I said the challenge has been done here
starkmjolk: I just might (:
Deanjo: spec for spec the macpro is a great buy as long as you refrain from buying the ram from apple
Deanjo: (which is kingston btw)
vadi2: or if you just want the 8600gt card, get a system76 serval ;)
cxo: dont waste your time starkmjolk
cxo: he's right
cxo: if you can find equal spec, the apple will always be cheaper
Deanjo: in the macpro's anyways
cxo: but having said that, it doesnt mean higher spec is not cheaper elsewhere
Deanjo: Well considering Apple gets first crack at the highest clocked xeons......
cxo: i wonder if intel is going to move to apple boxes
cxo: since they're not up'ing to vista
Deanjo: I really wish AMD would have had the manufacturing capabilities when Apple was looking at x86
Deanjo: Could have been a whole different story with AMD
cxo: ATi, AMD, and Apple, Triple A Mafia
starkmjolk: I really wish 8086 wouldn't have been so very successful, but what are you going to do :)
Deanjo: RISC was never up to the task. x86 although old scaled very well and is a bruteforce solution that does it's job
starkmjolk: even though one architecture to rule them all is convinient, I don't think it's good :)
cxo: everything is slowly going back to RISC now
starkmjolk: I didn't mean no x86, just that competiton and choise ain't bad things :)
starkmjolk: and vector processors cxo, don't forget those :)
Deanjo: PPC's were great chips and then MMX came around and nullified the advantage they held
Deanjo: RISC is great for dedicated tasks, for general purpose though they haven't panned out
cxo: man, all these years i wanted to buy a mac, i can finally afford to now, and what do they do? they put in intel processors
starkmjolk: for general purpose desktop it hasn't panned out yet, go up and down and there are fine risc choises all around :)
Deanjo: I've worked for many big OEMS and I too had the Apple "hate on" but after working for them I can tell you most of the hatred comes from ignorence
Deanjo: They are not as evil as some make out to be
starkmjolk: not much worse than sony, no :)
vadi2: Deanjo: nobody is.
vadi2: Deanjo: after you 'understand' them
Deanjo: (plus they have keggers every 2nd Friday. w00t!!!!)
cxo: its the first attraction that involves fear, anxiety and confidence, after you've bagged her, keeping her is simple
Deanjo: Like everything else vadi2, it's not that they are evil, they really do think different. After a while you see both sides of the fence.
vadi2: Deanjo: of course. everything is justifiable :)
vadi2: Deanjo: (as in, really, I believe you)
Deanjo: I'm not brainwashed, I do see all sides. I respect what every side does because looking from an outside view you can see points in everyone's strategy.
Deanjo: I'll give credit where credit is due
starkmjolk: I really wanted a mac a good while ago, but at that time I was a windows only user
Deanjo: Bill Gates for example. I hate his product, but I do see what he has done to bring computing into the mainstream and as a business man IMHO you cannot get any better.
cxo: i want Cell processors in my Mac Pro bitches
cxo: its a PPC under the skin
cxo: so i bet all the toolchain is still useable
starkmjolk: not really, more... inspired by I think
cxo: its a PPC
cxo: i've studied it to the bus level
Deanjo: And to me the anti-trust suites for mediaplayer and IE are just plain silly
starkmjolk: it is true that the instruction level fits
cxo: goes for a run
starkmjolk: I was thinking more ibm power than the instruction set ppc, you're right of course :)
Deanjo: The reason Apple went to x86 is #1 speed, it would have created too long of a delay to compete with the x86's that were out there. #2 Power consumption. The idea of putting the PPC that was available at the time in a portable was insane. Put a G5 in a portable and not only would have your nuts been fried in 10 minutes but the battery would have died 5 minutes after.
starkmjolk: more cooling than power consumption, it was too high power density
starkmjolk: very small for the ammount of power dicipated :)
Deanjo: Plus IBM already committed themselves to the next gen consoles. intel could supply a complete solution without supply problems at the time.
starkmjolk: they could've gone more open though, pick the cherries
starkmjolk: but they went from one locked deal to another
starkmjolk: like they do with graphics cards... sort of
Deanjo: To bring the next gen of macs up to par with the PC's they had to look at two options, 1) completely redesign from scratch or 2) go with a proven alternative with supply that was readily available
Deanjo: So to get back in the game they did the smart thing and went with option 2
starkmjolk: no argue there, but locking out AMD (and possibly VIA for a mac mini style) was not a great move I think
Deanjo: That was purely on who could supply in volume
starkmjolk: apples volumes aren't (and especially weren't) a problem for amd either
Deanjo: AMD at the time was having issues keeping up production for just their already existing OEM channels
starkmjolk: my argument wasn't amd only anyway :)
starkmjolk: but then again, they got a great deal from intel, not so great for intel though :)
Deanjo: VIA couldn't pass Apple QC standards
starkmjolk: their standards don't seem too high from the newer machines I've seen
Deanjo: You have to keep in mind what these companies were doing back when the decision was made
Deanjo: VIA came off some horrible chipsets
starkmjolk: and intel came from netburst :)
Deanjo: AMD was still catching premium price because the cores were never out in mass at the time..
Deanjo: and because they had a hard time keeping up with the demand
starkmjolk: I get your points, intel for most of the stuff was right. but going into a new lock in is never good. changing with the market would be better. What reason not to?
Deanjo: Now had AMD acquired ATI at the time, had a complete solution, and could supply the volumes you could of seen a AMD chip in a mac quite easily
Deanjo: Apple's exclusiveness with Intel has expired. If AMD gets off their ass and return to become viable contender you may just well see AMD in the macs
starkmjolk: you sure bout that part? if that's true I suppose that's a good thing
starkmjolk: you seem to know your part about apple, what oem makes the macbook pros?
Deanjo: (I know because I work for Apple)
Deanjo: You wanna scare the piss out of intel? You bring in Gates @ AMD
vadi2: hm.. so we have gates the businessman of windows. jobs the businessman of apple.
vadi2: is there a linux one? :x
Deanjo: I think that would have to be the *buntu dude
starkmjolk: ah, thanks Deanjo
Deanjo: Asus manufactures all the portables
vadi2: idk 4 years and his company isn't even making money :(
Deanjo: He's not in it for the money but as a spokesperson he has done the linux crew more PR then any other
vadi2: yeah, but the prob is that his pocket isn't refilling
Deanjo: It would be interesting to come up with a "board of directors" for linux
Deanjo: Which honestly I don't think would be all that bad to focus the future of linux
vadi2: What I'm sad at is nobody from linux really taking advantage of the xp -> vista migration. There are just so many people you can pick off.
vadi2: instead it's only the technical / ones poked by technical people that are giving it a try.
Deanjo: Sometimes the personality conflicts get so bad that you get 20 different solutions for 1 problem and it becomes a headache to maintain compatiblility
Deanjo: (perfect example is the audio in linux)
vadi2: Isn't a wonder that there's 1 kernel?
starkmjolk: its an evolving system
starkmjolk: new modules come up, and the lesser one dies out, with time
Deanjo: There has to be sometimes a fairly solid base. Projects can then offshoot their solutions off the base but you maintain a degree of stability by having certian set standardization.
Deanjo: When a better solution comes out, you may consider it a option for replacement as the standard.
starkmjolk: and that's what happens basically, I think the lack of centralisation works very well. of course there are ups and downs, but it's always like that
vadi2: It would be nice if the Free Desktop thing standardized audio
vadi2: That's at least *some* kind of a base thing - but even then people will add their own spiffy things, and they'll differ.
vadi2: (ie, icons. Kde just switched to the xdg spec afaik with their 4 version...)
Deanjo: Pulse for example is a bandaid type approach. Instead of trying to tie everything together through yet another layer improve the Alsa API
redeeman: Deanjo: the non-china seagates, where are they manufactured?
Deanjo: hmmmm, let me check
starkmjolk: malaysia perhaps? (just guessing)
redeeman: but ffs
redeeman: my seagates are china :|
vadi2: Deanjo: so really pulse has no future?
redeeman: unleashes rage on seagate
redeeman: if you mean pulseaudio, sure it has a future
vadi2: Deanjo: don't know much except that it was hailed as 'the' fix.. not quite working out yet as some apps are stuttering, some want flash off..
Exopaladin: personally I'd rather people use 4Front OSS now that it's GPL, mainly because that works for me better than ALSA, aside from a few ALSA-only apps :P
cxo: are u guys still talking about seagate
Deanjo: it has a future but at some point you have to legacy some of the overlapping technologies
redeeman: cxo: i went afk and brought it up again now
redeeman: Exopaladin: well.. the gpling from 4front is kindof too late
Deanjo: these wrappers upon compatibility layers are the shits
cxo: alsa is a lot more advanced than OSS, from a dev point of view, there is no sense writing anything for OSS
redeeman: cxo: oss is alot more unix style
redeeman: to be honest, i prefer oss too
redeeman: everything _IS_ a file, not a god damned shared library
Exopaladin: it also has rather better software mixing
Deanjo: OSS would have to do alot of feature implementation to catch up to ALSA's feature set
Exopaladin: or at least better software mixing support for my onboard intel crap anyway :P
vadi2: So for an app... how does this look like?
vadi2: you choose between alsa and oss?
Deanjo: All depends on the card
Deanjo: The nforce 2 for example totally kicks ass in OSS (it supports DICE)
vadi2: so that really sucks then
Deanjo: in alsa is simply becomes another intel chipset
Deanjo: still is really royally pissed about Nvidia abandoning Soundstorm
Exopaladin: I'm not terribly bothered, it never had great support in alsa and the problem with the commercial OSS is that alsa-only apps are a pain
starkmjolk: yeah, that was a real shame :(
Deanjo: Screw the hardware assisted firewall GIMME MY SOUNDSTORM BACK!!!!
redeeman: pfff, big loss
redeeman: as far as im concerned, the fewer nvidia products the better the world
starkmjolk: nvidia does there part, just as everyone else
starkmjolk: then its up to the consumer to decide if its good enough or not :)
Deanjo: lol redeeman, honestly Soundstorm was the one thing that Nvidia got 100% perfect
starkmjolk: and nforce 2 was really nice I think
cxo: problem with files is locking becomes slow and complicated when you have multiple streams
redeeman: yeah right, perfect, then where are the documentation? please give me link
Deanjo: Hardware mixing, true hardware encoding, hardware dls and sf support....
vadi2: so is it possible to use 1 pulseaudio instead of picking oss or alsa and hoping it works?
Deanjo: (there was also true hardware DTS upmixing if you knew the registers to get it going)
redeeman: pulseaudio needs a backend
redeeman: which for you is probably oss or alsa
vadi2: yeah, so pulseaudio auto-chooses the best?
Deanjo: Sadly, no linux solution supports one of my most favorite cards.
cxo: which is?
Deanjo: The Philips PSC-706
cxo: has written more than one alsa driver in his day
cxo: thats a sound card?
Deanjo: That card kicked ass with hardware Qsound support
cxo: most be 100yrs old
Deanjo: PSC706 Acoustic Edge
Exopaladin: heh, Thunderbird Avenger chip
Exopaladin: it sounds awesome anyway
Deanjo: Alsa said they never had the documentation, but philips did eventually but nobody ever did the driver
cxo: you want a good well supported sound card with hwmix, go with an old audigy, the windows n00bs dont buy it cos there are no drivers for it on vista, so you can pick'em up cheap on ebay
cxo: Deanjo, its not hard to write an alsa driver
cxo: the docs are out of date
Deanjo: Hardware mixer, hardware Qsound. kicked the living shit out of Creatives surround solution
cxo: but you can follow the existing drivers
redeeman: you just need docs for the actual hardware ofcourse :)
Deanjo: I got all of that
cxo: registers, and flags and gpios and etc.. ?
Deanjo: Qsound vs CMSS ........ no comparison
Deanjo: Ya it took about 110 emails
cxo: not bad
cxo: then you should write a driver
Deanjo: and a guy from philips actually came and started working for me. I got all the stuff now
vadi2: so to get this right, an app developer can now use pulseaudio, and for the distros it's supported, it'll work perfect?
Deanjo: Craziest dutch guy I know :P
Deanjo: (truthfully, he's the only one I know)
Exopaladin: the problem with pulseaudio is that it's perfect if everything supports pulseaudio, it doesn't always play nicely with stuff that doesn't though
cxo: anyone who writes an app for pulseaudio will meet bill gates in hell when they die
vadi2: So there is still no 1 solution that works?
Deanjo: ^5s cxo
Deanjo: Alsa can be vadi2
redeeman: what do you mean vadi2? alsa works fine
vadi2: for every computer?
Deanjo: hell yes
Exopaladin: most of them
vadi2: why does oss exist then
Deanjo: Pulse does nothing for hardware compatiblilty
Exopaladin: because alsa isn't supported on all platforms
Exopaladin: well, plus it came first :P
vadi2: and why was pulse was mde
redeeman: but exopaladin SDL isn't touching the hardware either
Deanjo: You take the simplicity of the OSS API and merge it with ALSA = match made in heaven
redeeman: it relies on an underlying oss or alsa driver on linux
vadi2: well, this is crap, time to wait for someone else to come up with a solution...
Exopaladin: but it's probably more readily available than pulseaudio
Deanjo: Alsa has a better "bare to the metal" interface. It's API just sucks
vadi2: meanwhile my sound still stutters in some games and I have to close flash before playing eve -.-
redeeman: Deanjo: everything is _NOT_ a shared library
vadi2: ... while people complain about the unix standard. lol
Exopaladin: I'm using pulseaudio with alsa at the moment and seem to have managed through some weird combination to prevent flash from whoring the sound card
redeeman: just don't use fucking flash
redeeman: if you don't use weird crap, stuff works better
Deanjo: not saying so redeeman, just saying that the ALSA api could have easily been worked on instead of trying to bandaid it with pulse
vadi2: er, are you telling me not to watch youtube
vadi2: I can not use my computer too, I won't have any problems with it XD
redeeman: tell youtube to not use a crappy flash thing
Exopaladin: yeah, just install debian stable and set it to auto upgrade before walking away, it'll run until you get a hardware failure :P
vadi2: redeeman: lol. you're high in the sky
Deanjo: Which reminds me, my rider game is on, moonlight to the rescue!!!!
redeeman: no, im simply not willing to pollute my system THAT much
vadi2: redeeman: "don't use it and you'll be OK! Don't use that either! and that! and don't turn on your computer."
Exopaladin: hm, I think flash 10 beta may actually have native pulseaudio support, which is probably why I have it playing nicely with everything
Deanjo: I absolutely hate adobe. Which some see ironic with me working for Apple
Exopaladin: I'm not sure if I hope flash gets improved or if silverlight takes off, it's a case of picking the lesser of two evils
redeeman: no it's a case of boycotting two unacceptable evils
Deanjo: Deal with Adobe devels 1-on-1 and there is a perfectly good reason for that.
vadi2: i'd say silverlight, because there's monolight - at least should be better support. ironically enough
redeeman: miguelware is unacceptable
Deanjo: I completely agree vadi2
Exopaladin: I have a feeling that MS will stop being cooperative with monolight if they manage to kill off flash
redeeman: lol it's called moonlight
Deanjo: Different crew running the joint at that point Exopaladin
redeeman: and i hope m$ kills off adobe
Deanjo: By that time you have the lotus notes dude running the show
vadi2: redeeman: you know what - if you want to change the situation, make a better technology and market it. not sit around saying don't use this and that.
vadi2: redeeman: if the GNU made flash before adobe did, it would've been great. but it didn't.
redeeman: i don't care if there comes a 100% free implementation
redeeman: or a free competitor
redeeman: i want such entire technology banned
redeeman: it's a nuisanse
redeeman: and should almost be illegal
redeeman: allthough i would have preferred nobody would be insane enough to actually create it
Deanjo: See redeeman, I don't think the novell/ms deal was all that bad. It introduced corps that were fearful of backlash from ms into linux. As a former sysop, I was constantly fighting the good fight trying to get linux in the system. After the deal was done that became reality.
vadi2: Deanjo: wrong person to discuss that with
redeeman: the ends doesent justify the means
redeeman: novell did something they should not have done
redeeman: but if you think THAT is why i dislike miguel, you are wrong
vadi2: it's 'cuz he made the gnomes and they konquered the desktop.
redeeman: haha lol, yeah, by removing all features
Deanjo: Hey as a person that works that the corp level. Those deals make or break implementation. I don't agree 100% with software patents, but really if your hammering a company for trying to accomodate laws it's their gov't rep they should be going after
redeeman: they are making a deal which could very likely put everyone not-novell in a very bad position
redeeman: it's nothing more than a gpl violation made legal
Deanjo: hey novell was playing by the rules set by the gov't. Bitch at the gov't if you have a beef
redeeman: just because what they are doing is legal does not make it right
Deanjo: It's the general population that voted the dumb bastards in the first place
redeeman: they knew full well that the gpl was made to stop deals exactly like that, but being an aged license, didn't forsee that very way of circumventing
Deanjo: You work within the constraints you are given
redeeman: what they did, was to find a legal way of breaking the gpl
redeeman: and even though it is technically legal, it's not the right thing to do
redeeman: but those bastards didn't care
Deanjo: I love how those people forget that the SAME company totally killed the lawsuites that would have TRUELY killed linux
vadi2: or started compiz :)
Deanjo: and many more projects
Deanjo: or funded at least
redeeman: so because they funded a few projects that makes it allright that they practically broke the gpl and made hundreds of projects possibly unable to integrate changes?
redeeman: besides, no matter what happened to novell, or what novell did, no lawsuits would have killed linux
vadi2: yeah, it would've only been thrown back for another decade or so
Deanjo: If SCO would have their way it would have
redeeman: and so tell me, how would SCO been able to do ANYTHING, even if novell had not made that deal?
vadi2: er lol
Deanjo: Dude it was Novell that said "Fuck you we have the rights and we made it OSS"
redeeman: yes and so what?
redeeman: sco had ZERO substance in their lawsuits
Deanjo: "You owe us money if you want to continue further"
redeeman: they would have lost
vadi2: it would've been better if SCO has the rights and made everyone pay.
redeeman: either way
vadi2: yeah really, 'cuz justice prevails when nobody's defending it.
vadi2: by magic.
redeeman: erhm i think you are forgetting that the people they actually made lawsuits against, were defending?
Deanjo: No Novell has done MORE for freedom of software then any other company. It's because they are a corporation that everybody says they are evil. You pick the battles you can win for the over all good.
redeeman: haha, you believe novell has done more than say... redhat?
Deanjo: Your damn rights when it comes to protecting the freedom of OSS. RH has barely spent a dime defending it
Deanjo: Instead they turn their head and go another route
Deanjo: Where as Novell will take technologies and OSS them
redeeman: redhat has too taken stuff and opened it
Deanjo: lol compared to the techs that novell has taken and OSS's their portfolio is laughable at best
Deanjo: Redhat may contribute more straight to OSS but novell has done oodles more taking proprietary to OSS
Deanjo: That is fact my friend and is also one of the reasons why when and OSS implementation is called for novell is top of the lists (see RadeonHD)