Phoronix IRC Log: 2008-06-23
schestowitz: , seen these comments? http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2008-06-22-006-26-RV-HW
schestowitz: You need to rebut
vadi2: Interesting. One of the Loki programmers now works for Blizzard on WoW
d2kx: would be cool if they would port the game to linux (again!)
d2kx: even if i don't play it anymore for over two years
vadi2: He's a "Lead Software Engineer, Game Systems". Pretty sure they got the knowledge to...
d2kx: but that would be great for many people and other developers (EA Mythic *cough*) may consider doing the same
redeeman: blizzard does keep the linux client updated
redeeman: atleast they did for a long while
redeeman: the reason they don't release for linux is crapple
cxo: crapples
cxo: double crapples
redeeman: fortunately there is only one crapple
cxo: 4870 crysis benchmark, disappointing http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3715/112232498us4gp0.png
cxo: it better be damn cheap then
cxo: do they purposely make their cards 20% slower than nvidia's or what?
cxo: so its now the fight between power consumption, heat and noise level, between the 4870 and the 280gtx
redeeman: didn't someone say the 280gtx would make 65-66dB at max?
redeeman: it seems hard to believe even nvidia would go that far
redeeman: but if someone would, im sure it's nvidia
cxo: 60db is insane
redeeman: it really is
redeeman: but so is nvidia
Exopaladin: I can't imagine anyone would seriously make a card that loud
redeeman: i remember their 5xxx lineup, called the hair dryer
redeeman: Exopaladin: nvidia doesent care shit about what is normal
redeeman: if nvidia makes a 65dB card, im sure most of their brainded fans would buy it simply to have the loudest card ever
Exopaladin: I never used the 5 series, it was pretty poor really.. stuck with my TI4200 until the 6 series came out
cxo: i saw a funny youtube video about that
redeeman: lol cxo yeah
redeeman: they used the 5xxx to clean the road
cxo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdExkuvGySE&feature=related
redeeman: but the sad part is, nvidia originally intended to actually shove the product on the market like that
redeeman: cxo: you should post link to the actual video stream, not some crappy closed blob site
cxo: sorry, thats the only one i knew
cxo: the 4870 better be sub $300
maligor: Maybe ati has trouble with dx10
cxo: they boast dx10.1 even
maligor: but I don't see how that matters to us
redeeman: screw dx10 anyway, opengl performance is what matters
cxo: maybe that's slowing them down
d2kx: cxo: the crysis benchmarks are disappointing? you must be joking
maligor: the dx9 results on the crysis benchmark look fantastic tho
cxo: i expected a single 4870 to smoke the 280gtx
cxo: ...will continue this convo at the office.....
Exopaladin: it's disappointing if the 4870 is in the same price range as the 280gtx
redeeman: lol cxo then you were a fool
redeeman: nvidia is willing to do ANYTHING to be fastest
redeeman: they will achieve this
redeeman: not that it matters
maligor: what kind of thermal profile does the 280gtx have anyway?
d2kx: you can buy 2x 4870 for the price of GTX 280
redeeman: yeah lol the 280's price is insane
maligor: d2kx, or maybe an X2
d2kx: heat, power consumption, noise level, features, it is all on AMD's side
redeeman: maybe even 2x x2?
maligor: heh
redeeman: i heard the x2 will come at ~400usd
maligor: the truth about video cards post says GTX 280 SLI is 340W
maligor: single at 183W
maligor: but those results always are a bit off
d2kx: GTX 280 is crazy
maligor: 4870 doesn't seem that much better off tho
d2kx: who needs this card? 4870 X2 will be a lot faster for the same price
maligor: says it's at 157W for single
redeeman: well d2kx, theres also the matter of drivers
Exopaladin: the 4850 is the equivalent of $300 here for the 512MB model, not sure what the 4870 will be like
d2kx: let's wait for some proper HD 4870 vs. GTX 280 tests when it is officially launched
d2kx: 145€ in Germany for 4850
d2kx: cheap as ***
maligor: yeah, darned cheap for a just released card
Exopaladin: £140-£150 here, so roughly $300
maligor: but it might also be that the prices have finally gotten in sync with the dollar rates
redeeman: hah yeah right, it never is in sync
redeeman: damn 4850 is expensive here
maligor: I see a asus 4850 for 187eur here
redeeman: 200 euro here for cheapest 4850
Exopaladin: heh, £455 for the GTX 280, so $890 or 575 EUR
maligor: but that's the only card they list
redeeman: yeah i also only find asus
redeeman: i want displayport!
redeeman: won't there come an 4850 or 4870 with displayport?
Exopaladin: works out at 190 EUR for the 4850s as the average price, the 1GB model is rather more
maligor: you have a display with display port?-)
redeeman: yes
redeeman: why else would i want it?
d2kx: GTX 280 costs 499€ here
Exopaladin: yeah, we pay too much for hardware generally
redeeman: but atleast we don't live in USA
redeeman: which is worth the extra price
redeeman: hell, it's worth basically any monetary price
Exopaladin: eh, I'd probably take the USA over the UK
d2kx: I am fine here with Germany's hardware prices, it's much worse in other countries
Exopaladin: baring in mind that we're becoming the mini-US but with stupidly high prices
redeeman: lol yeah you are usa's puppy
maligor: d2kx, mm.. you wouldn't know any good german webshops that deliver all over EU :P
redeeman: shipping from germany is shit cheap
redeeman: the UK however
redeeman: they have smoked some heavy shit
redeeman: costs 20 times as much to denmark as from germany
redeeman: hell, it's cheaper to order stuff from the US than from uk
redeeman: despite the 20% vat
d2kx: :D
d2kx: poor UK people
Exopaladin: sometimes it seems like the companies here just can't be bothered to do any calculations so they just convert the USD price straight to GBP by changing the symbol :P
d2kx: that's what nvidia does in germany...
redeeman: lol sometimes they even set the gbp price higher :P
d2kx: it's crazy isn't it
Exopaladin: most companies in general do that here
redeeman: they should be punished for it
maligor: Exopaladin, yeh, same for EUR
maligor: I've seen lots of prices 1:1 USD:EUR
redeeman: in denmark they are often far worse, since we don't use euros
Exopaladin: not quite as bad though, we pay higher prices than most of Europe for electronic crap
redeeman: they feel free to make much more colorful currency conversions
Exopaladin: 1:1 USD:EUR isn't quite as bad as 1:1 USD:GBP :/
maligor: well, 1:1 USD:EUR conversion isn't fun with expensive photo gear
maligor: it's cheaper to order it from the USA
maligor: and that's after shipping and vat added to it
starkmjolk: it's usually 1:10 USD:SEK (sweden), and the dollar is hovering around 6 SEK atm :P
starkmjolk: so not far fetched from twice the price
Kano: michaellarabel: is it needed to test highend gfx cards with slow opteron cpu? even 200€ dual core intel cpus are faster!
Kano: michaellarabel: in your latest 9800 gtx test lots of tests are cpu limited
cxo: hey you can blame a guy for dreaming, that 10yrs after the 9700pro we could actually get an ati card worth buying
Kano: michaellarabel: dont yout think that there must be an issue when a 9600 gt scores the same as a 9800 gtx?
michaellarabel: Kano: Read last page of article
Kano: i hope you switch to higher clocked intel dual/quad core as main test system instead using a 8core opteron
cxo: whats wrong with an 8core opteron?
Kano: no games buys that
Kano: no gamer
cxo: duh
cxo: games you want a straight 1 with like a 10ghz clock speed
Kano: high price, server usuage in 99% of all cases
Kano: well maybe a dual for some background tasks
Kano: the more cores you have the more time you lose when you have to sync the tasks - the same problem have sli/crossfire configurations
Kano: that means a quad sli can be slower than triple sli
d2kx: even an athlon x2 @ 3 ghz will do for gaming
Kano: but not for benchmarking
Kano: top speed you only get from intel
michaellarabel: It's going to be an Intel Wolfdale running close to 4GHz
Kano: thats the right system
d2kx: may be true for etqw...
Kano: you could test sli performance when you have got 2 cards
Kano: i know how fast g92 is, as a 8800 gts 512 is maybe 5% slower only than the tested 9800 gtx
d2kx: have you seen how different CPUs behave with Windows games like Crysis? http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/prozessoren/2008/test_elf_prozessoren_athlon_phenom/25/#abschnitt_crysis
Kano: d2kx: you see E6600 -> Q6600 is 1 fps diff ;)
vadi2: I'm starting to wonder if crysis is just a badly-implemented over-hyped game (hence the big performance impact)
d2kx: wow great :D
Kano: well for games you really dont ned quad, thats for compiling
Kano: and this is more or less clear because there is usually only one rendering thread
d2kx: you get an athlon x2 @ 3,2ghz for 75€, still a difference if compared to the E8400 for 130€ I think when most games dont care (yet)
Kano: and if you use more you have to sync em
Kano: if that would scale so well then sli/crossfire would have to be much faster too
d2kx: lets wait for some phoronix crossfire benchmarks vs. nvidia sli, will be interesting
d2kx: especially with the 4870X2 which has several improvements in that area for better crossfire performance
Kano: it is faster for some games, but only at really high res needed
d2kx: yep
d2kx: 3x GTX280 and you still can't play Crysis at high resolution :D
Kano: because the game engine is crap
vadi2: there we go
d2kx: still, it's funny :D
cxo: thats cos crysis was written in c++
cxo: hides
Kano: maybe dx9/10 is so slow
Kano: ;)
redeeman: it's m$ crap, figures
d2kx: Crytek says Crysis: Warhead will not only look nicer than Crysis (...), but also perform much better even with higher graphics settings. They consider backporting the engine improvements back to Crysis, but you know that Crytek+Support=oh noez
Kano: i think for farcry they implemented a d3d + opengl renderer
d2kx: yep
d2kx: hopefully there will be some nice OpenGL 3 based games in the future
Kano: maybe ms payed em for creating a dx10 extra option
d2kx: "maybe"
d2kx: and nvidia payed them for not adding dx 10.1 render i guess
Kano: 10.1 does not really mater
Kano: nv waits for dx11 i think
d2kx: first AC patch: no 10.1 support anymore, second AC patch: crossfire performance is much worse... yeah, right
vadi2: I doubt they even had to pay anything.
vadi2: There are other ways to exert pressure :)
starkmjolk: nope, you still need vista so you don't get past the EULA :)
redeeman: michaellarabel: as far as i know xf86-video-ati isn't backed by amd?
Kano: you need vista sp1 to use dx10.1 - fine - and currently an ati card
vadi2: see! nvidia is helping linux.
Kano: the one or 2 effects you can use more is nothing you should spend your time one
d2kx: well AC ran much better with 10.1
Kano: as basically only very few ppl will be able to see em
Kano: d2kx: you do not own a card that supports dx10.1 features at all...
d2kx: DX 10 & DX 10.1 do not have any new effects AFAIK, they only allow developers to implement better ways of using them
d2kx: Kano: that changes in about 2 weeks
cxo: yeah more weird callbacks
Kano: d2kx: well one effect more + AA or so by default
maligor: 10 & 10.1 have geometry shaders
d2kx: who cares about the effects... if they can implement features to be faster than that's even better than new effects
Kano: it is time for shrinking gpu (and cpu) right now to gain more speed
d2kx: it is always time for that ;)
Kano: the first 45nm nvidia gpu is that shrinked G92 core used on the new 9800 gtx+ cards
d2kx: G92b is 55nm, not 45nm
Kano: this allows higher clockspeeds
d2kx: G200b is 55nm, too
maligor: and yeah, dx10 has some features that should make it more efficent if hardware supports the features
d2kx: 45nm will not arrive before G300 / R800
d2kx: well maybe with a RV770 refresh
Kano: right 55nm
starkmjolk: yeah, tsmc doesn't offer 45nm for such compex ICs yet
Kano: cpus are at 45nm already
d2kx: is G92 80nm or 65nm?
Kano: i think 65
starkmjolk: Kano: CPUs aren't made by TSMC, and when you say CPUs you mean intel CPUs :)
starkmjolk: d2kx: yeah, think anand said 65 in some table
Kano: well that is maybe the main issue why the fastest amd cpus are so slow against intel
Kano: maybe intel should produce em ;)
starkmjolk: hah, it is one of the reasons why intel is ahead in the top segment
starkmjolk: AMD is like a tenth of Intels size and don't have the same fab R&D
Kano: they have much more fabs
Kano: therefore i expect very high parallel gfx cores when they begin to produce those
d2kx: yeah AMD CPUs are really slow as hell, you know
Kano: i have got one amd cpu, still use it, but not for gaming
d2kx: I have a single core A64 @ 2,2 ghz running at the moment and it still does it for me
starkmjolk: I had a AXP until a few months ago, was just fine as a main for everything but VHDL synth for FPGAs
Kano: i dont have got a single core for daily use anymore
d2kx: still thinking about if I will gor for a fast Athlon X2 @ > 3 GHz and upgrade to Phenom K10.5 45nm later or if I'll go for a Phenom now
starkmjolk: now i have a 5000+ BE@3GHz, it's very very fast and responsive
Kano: d2kx: you are a gamer, phenom will not gain you 1 fps more
d2kx: well Kano, there *are* some games already that love four cores
d2kx: and there will be more in the future
d2kx: have you seen Race Driver: GRID benchmarksß
Kano: d2kx: one out of 100 ;)
d2kx: of course ;)
d2kx: but i would bite myself if there was quad core games coming everywhere after my purchase ^^
Kano: what i really want to see is that new physx accelleration with nvidia gpus
d2kx: well it's already here
d2kx: go try it
Kano: well not for my card
Kano: michaellarabel: you could try that on win, it should be enabled
d2kx: oh really? works for 9800 GTX and some .ini tweaks should do the trick I assume
d2kx: well as of today, PhysX is as useful as DX 10.1
Kano: well i can wait the month till it will be enabled for geforce 8 cards too not only geforce 9 as now
Kano: well usefull depends on definition. of course you could put the physics on the cpu too
Kano: and the "real" ageia physx hardware was clocked very low, so sometimes the framerates even dropped - while providing a few more effects
d2kx: I heard CellFactor (PhysX showcase game) runs horribly
Kano: the hardware was slow
cxo: i like how the 1.8ghz amd is only 13% slower than the best 3.2ghz xeon
d2kx: i am talking about 9800 GTX PhysX
cxo: (on that german site)
Kano: d2kx: show me link. i mainly only found benchmarks for vantage + some modded ut3 levels
starkmjolk: cxo: sounds just like the netburst days :P
Kano: you can play cellfactor without physx card of course too
cxo: makes people with the old amd x2 feel good
cxo: like me
starkmjolk: amd x2 isn't old in my world :)
Kano: i have got one of the first amd x2 cpus here
starkmjolk: not even EOL so can't be that old :)
Kano: it is enough for vdr + webbrowsing the same time ;)
maligor: the 4050E's are interesting too
d2kx: mmh
d2kx: 4850e costs about 15€ more for 2,5GHz x2 instead of 2,0
d2kx: and for the same price (4850e) you get the 5600+ with 65nm core with 2,9 GHz (60€)
Kano: or get the right board + new cpu ;)
d2kx: nothing wrong with that CPU
starkmjolk: the e's are all 45W right?
d2kx: yeah
d2kx: @ 2,9 GHz the athlon is 65W
starkmjolk: which is still very manageable
Kano: about 60€ for a p35 board
starkmjolk: I don't think I'd like to pass 80-85W for a new CPU, want to keep noise at a minimum level
redeeman: get watercooling :P
d2kx: well i wouldnt use P35 for gaming, as there are already games that really take advantage of PCIe 2.0
starkmjolk: I've had my share of water and also a vapo earlier
starkmjolk: and I might get water again, sooner or later
redeeman: i got water for my quadcore
Kano: d2kx: then P45 if you really care
redeeman: povray is really slow :|
starkmjolk: is there any decent external water cooling for quiet operation, cheaper than reserator XT?
redeeman: i just got the reserator
redeeman: it's really good
starkmjolk: I have most components from a few years back left actually, so might build my own instead. will need new water blocks atleast though
redeeman: yeah well :P this is my first watercooling, i felt most comfortable just getting the reserator
redeeman: but it manages my Q9450@3.2 really good
redeeman: temp is 30deg with ~16 hours of full load
starkmjolk: I'm often quite close to 30C air temp in the room so I won't get such temps ;)
Kano: redeeman: i addes some extra fans - but not for cooling the cpu but for hds
redeeman: i sometimes have 30deg air temp
Kano: do you cool your hd with water too?
redeeman: nope
redeeman: i don't cool my HD's
Kano: well currently i have got 3 in a raid5 + 1 extra
redeeman: i have 2 in it, 32deg and 34
Kano: but ich9r does not work with linux yet, only build that raid for testing
redeeman: i use ich9r
redeeman: not the raid function, but well :P
Kano: yes without raid no problem
redeeman: i don't trust hardware raid
redeeman: is ich9r really hardware raid?
Kano: i would need a nforce 750i or 780i for testing raid 5 with nvidia
starkmjolk: no consumer mobo has 'hardware' raid afaik
Kano: well do you know what Q45 will even have?
redeeman: encryption you said
Kano: yes
Kano: want to try that
redeeman: what algorithms will it support?
redeeman: and how are keys managed?
redeeman: and all that stuff
Kano: dont know
Kano: but transparent to os i guess
redeeman: but most importantly, will the implementation be OH so identical to the software implementations of the algorithms?
Kano: very likely that it will be win only
starkmjolk: don't trust AES, the fact that the US millitary urges people to use it gives me a bad feeling... :P
redeeman: yeah lol starkmjolk
redeeman: that's quite bad
Kano: aes is open, nobody broke it
starkmjolk: not officially no
Kano: (yet)
redeeman: my current fileserver uses encryption on each disk separately
redeeman: with 6 different 32 characters alphanumeric passphrases
redeeman: and different algos
starkmjolk: and probably just tin-foil-hat thoughts
Kano: redeeman: let me access your pc and mod your initrd then i can caputure it ;)
Kano: or
redeeman: Kano: no initrd support
Kano: do you know another funny attact
starkmjolk: but I still prefer serpent, it lost the AES contest because it was too strong, they overdid it :P
Kano: with removed cooled ram?
redeeman: and i modified my grub so it only boots trusted kernels
maligor: redeeman, so if you get arrested, you'll refrain from providing them with the keys?
redeeman: Kano: that is a nice hack, i wonder if it truly works
redeeman: maligor: naturally
Kano: i guess it does
starkmjolk: Kano: I saw the demos of that attack
maligor: redeeman, what if you attach a external drive and boot from that
starkmjolk: it would work just fine, people shouldn't regard DRAM as fully volatile
redeeman: maligor: well.. then they still don't have access to my keys? and i think i'd notice an external drive sticking out of my fileserver, before i enter the keys
maligor: redeeman, oh, yes, but you still have to store the keys somewhere, unless you enter then at boot
redeeman: maligor: i enter them when i assemble the raid
Kano: redeeman: you can currently not boot without an initrd, so where did you put kernel+initrd
maligor: that's pretty paranoid :P
redeeman: Kano: wtf? why cant i boot without initrd?!
redeeman: im doing it on multiple machines
maligor: how do you combat EM snooping?
maligor: is the entire room a faraday cage?
redeeman: maligor: my entire house is in a faraday cage!
redeeman: lol
maligor: and all the windows are mirror windows
Kano: redeeman: what type of encryption? no luks?
redeeman: Kano: normal dm-crypt
redeeman: Kano: i don't have the OS itself encrypted, so i can easily boot without initrd
Kano: ha even more easy to hack
redeeman: like... how?
redeeman: (also its crack)
maligor: Kano, if he inserts the passwords at boot, I don't see any practical way
Kano: maligor: replace the tools
redeeman: you cant replace them
Kano: you can
redeeman: how?
maligor: mm.. yeah... you could replace the kernel
maligor: and then snoop the pws when it boots next time
Kano: when i can boot an external live system i can access your hd
redeeman: you'd need lto spend long time with my fileserver in order to do anything
Kano: replace the file and wait till you login
redeeman: and i verify md5sum of every executable
redeeman: in fact, i only allow execution of md5 verified executables
Kano: the md5sum must be stored on hd
maligor: md5sum isn't secure
redeeman: no, externally
redeeman: maligor: it's secure enough
Kano: well md5 could be cracked if needed
redeeman: i doubt VERY much that kano can craft a custom exe that does what he wants, and have it match my prerecorded md5
redeeman: if he can, i salute him
cxo: how do you decode md5?
redeeman: and welcome him to my fileserver :D
Kano: md5 is a hash
maligor: cxo, decoding hashes doesn't make much sense
redeeman: one cannot decode, one can only really bruteforce
redeeman: and by the time that's done, i don't care about the data anymore
cxo: maligor, b=hash(a), a=decode(b)
Kano: the trick is to create other files with the same hash with user defined data
maligor: yeah, you'd have to modify the binary and then start padding it with extra data to make it match
maligor: but it's possible
cxo: my point is just that, you cannot crack md5
maligor: cxo, you know what a hash is, yes?
redeeman: but it's completely impractical
starkmjolk: in a normal system you have much easier exploits than actually matching the hash :)
redeeman: it would never suceed in reality
maligor: yeah, you could also add a ps2 or usb recorder dongle
maligor: unless you check for those too everytime :P
redeeman: that wouldn't stop me
maligor: or even modify the keyboard
redeeman: i attach keyboard on a boot-basis
starkmjolk: humans use the system, the system can be exploited. not harder than that
Kano: redeeman: but when do you check md5sum? when it was executed before you check you have got already lost
redeeman: Kano: i have kindof hacked my kernel alot :P
maligor: there's also another option of just replacing grub and kernel both, and make them seem like they're the old still
maligor: since you can't trust grub
Kano: then we need to replace the kernel too ;)
Kano: with physical access no problem
redeeman: yeah but my grub won't boot that
maligor: what you need is TPM enabled grub :P
Kano: do you think reinstalling grub is a problem
redeeman: well.. i would notice
maligor: not nessesarily
redeeman: unless you have time to make other modifications i also made
redeeman: to your grub
Kano: you can fake any outputs
redeeman: you would need long physical access to my server
redeeman: to do it
Kano: grub is not encrypted, your system is not encrypted
Kano: so what to do
maligor: so.. when are you going to a vacation? ;)
maligor: s/to/on/
Kano: -> copy everything readable on another hd
Kano: come back when you are done
redeeman: Kano: what if i change those things regularly?
Kano: i would really suggest to encrypt everything
redeeman: doesent matter
Kano: maybe build the kernel+initrd in flash roms
maligor: you could also add a powerloss data collector
Kano: ;)
redeeman: my protection is against theft only really
maligor: assuming you keep the server running
maligor: it'd tell you it's been compromised
redeeman: yeah i already have
redeeman: monitoring on it
maligor: and load monitor
Kano: redeeman: bascially every one with root access could seek the memory for the keys
maligor: What do you store on it? The American National Secrets? :P
redeeman: maligor: my family photos :P
Kano: so watch out for root exploits if you give somebody user access
redeeman: Kano: only I have user access
redeeman: and grsec makes sure the services are not misbehaving
maligor: I guess you have checks against bruteforce pw attacks too ;)
redeeman: i have 2sec wait time between login attempts
redeeman: i think bruteforcing is out of the question :P
maligor: what about someone installing a video camera in the room?-)
Kano: a much simpler attack now
Kano: attach a hardware keylogger ;)
Kano: do you use wireless keyboards?
redeeman: no i don't
maligor: Kano, he did say he attaches the keyboard on login basis :P
Kano: well i think it is possible to add a keylogger inside a keyboard
redeeman: well.. it probably is
maligor: I guess you could add a hardware keylogger inside the compuer too
Kano: sure
redeeman: but these things arent practical
redeeman: i'd notice
Kano: a modified keyboard you will not notice
redeeman: but when will you modify it?
maligor: just buy an identical keyboard
Kano: you buy the same keyboard
redeeman: then i'd notice it not being identical
Kano: put some dust on it and you will not see any diff*g*
maligor: mmm.. disposable usb keyboards! the solution!
redeeman: but actually
maligor: made out of paper
redeeman: i am currently developing a piece of hardware
maligor: you could burn them after use, heh
redeeman: which will counter the "replace my keyboard" thing
Kano: do you know what the easiest way is to get the root pw?
starkmjolk: Kano: you ask :)
redeeman: lol
Kano: exactly
redeeman: fortunately in denmark the court cannot do anything
redeeman: i can just claim i do not remember passwords
redeeman: and that the only copy is on a broken cd
redeeman: they will have to proove im lying
maligor: a serious man cutting your fingers off might have other options
maligor: but that actually requires someone knows something is there
redeeman: maligor: and such a man, im not trying to hide anything from
Kano: redeeman: wait when there is a way to extract the content of death brains ;)
redeeman: at that time i shall adjust my handling of keys differently
maligor: Kano, that'd mean practical neural implants
Kano: do you remember johnny mnemonic?
maligor: you could just make your own implants commit complete suicide on death
Kano: or lawnmower man ;)
Kano: store yourself in the net
Kano: redeeman: http://www.keyspyer.de/
Kano: i hope you watch out for dongles ;)
redeeman: i would definetly notice that thing
Kano: it cant be hard to add that internally
redeeman: but you need to get my keyboard
redeeman: a similar will soon not work
Kano: airbush art or what *g*
redeeman: ~2 weeks ago i started making avr code using the varusb lib, to do usbhid
redeeman: so soon i will attach inside my usb keyboards
redeeman: a microcontroller which will identify it
Kano: on the same site you see the internal modules too
redeeman: and so if you simply replaced my keyboard, you wouldn't notice
Kano: the usb id will not change
redeeman: no but if you merely replaced my keyboard my ID would not be there
Kano: do you know how many cabels usb has got
redeeman: what do you mean?
redeeman: you mean wires?
Kano: very few, only 4. should not be hard to add small device inside keyboard within maybe 10 min
redeeman: my keyboard isn't screwed together, it's "clipsed"
redeeman: also
redeeman: my microcontroller will record power loss
redeeman: and thus detect a hack :)
Kano: let me test it ;)
redeeman: test what?
redeeman: you wanna modify my keyboard?
Kano: i would suggest to use a camera monitoring your system too
redeeman: my data isn't really secret
maligor: hmm.. they've actually made a TPM enabled GRUB
Kano: a Q45 board or Q35 has got a TPM usually
maligor: my board only has a header
maligor: haven't seen the modules for sale anywhere tho
Kano: so you own an asus board?
maligor: yeah
Kano: 10 euro for that thing
Kano: http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Mainboards_Zubehoer/Asus/TPM_Modul_Vista/193990/?articleId=193990
maligor: hmm.. maybe I should get one, might be fun to play with
Kano: and even cheaper when you search for asus tpm
redeeman: does gigabyte X48 board have it?
maligor: dunno, check the manual?
Kano: redeeman: it might have got a header to add a module
maligor: it's marked as TPM header on mine
redeeman: i believe i have that aswell
Kano: if you really need that its seems better when it is a module instead of built-in as you can take it to your next board
redeeman: how do they work? they have a unique key in them or?
maligor: Kano, I don't think they can be reused like that
Kano: well you can add your keys
Kano: maligor: why not?
maligor: you'd have to reset it to use it on another board
Kano: maligor: did you try?
maligor: no, but for security reasons it might make sense
maligor: redeeman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
Kano: maligor: i dont see the added security by that
cxo: http://www.fedoraforum.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=4469
maligor: http://trousers.sourceforge.net/grub.html
Kano: maligor: when you store passwords you can use a master pass
maligor: I imagine you could use it to encrypt and verify your bootloader
maligor: dunno if anything supports that tho
Kano: i doubt you can encrypt the bootloader, but you can use it to store the keys for bitlocker for example
Kano: you can verify it of course
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus: Hi
maligor: well, I think you can use it to measure the MBR bootloader, and verify it
uncle_fungus: hi michaellarabel
Kano: maligor: i dont think that there is a bios which would allow encrypted bootloaders
michaellarabel: I created a trondheim-12 branch in git for PTS 1.2 development work... Though I don't know if it's working on the git server yet. Anyways, I got the sensor monitoring all pulled out into a module. I then also have the threading support almost working, for polling sensors every X seconds during a test.
maligor: Kano, I meant a small secure loader for the bootloader perhapsp :P
maligor: Kano, dunno really tho, never looked that much into TPM
Kano: maligor: well it seems possible to write that on your own
Kano: it is not hard to modifiy a bios and add custom code
maligor: since it's meant to allow trust, I would imagine such a setup should be possible
Kano: do you know that bios mod that allows you to use the ata passwords?
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: great! I'll take a look at it as soon as I can pull it from phorogit
Kano: http://www.fitzenreiter.de/ata/ata_eng.htm
maligor: ata passwords aren't very secure
Kano: i added that once, but then i got bored entering em
maligor: heh
maligor: you can just switch the electronics on the drive
Kano: nope
Kano: i think you have to do something else as it is most likely stored on the hd itself
maligor: why would it be stored on the hd
Kano: but a hd recovery firm would have got no trouble with that i guess
Kano: could be only one sector to clean or so
Kano: i would not add flash storage for that
Kano: on the electronic as that would be really too simple
maligor: depends on what they want to achieve with it
Kano: replacing electronics takes only a few min
Kano: did that to recover one maxtor drive
maligor: yep, and putting it on flash on the controller is by far the cheapest option
Kano: nope i guess they use a spare sector on drive, would be more logical
maligor: well, they probably have flash on them anyway
maligor: identification and settings
maligor: and maybe quirks
redeeman: Kano: ping
Kano: yes?
redeeman: remember i talked about my amd64 where newer nvidia xv drivers crash when using opengl and xv at same time?
cxo: that was an ancient bug
cxo: there was also some funky xorg Option for it
redeeman: yeah right... existing up to and including the latest version
cxo: you need an option in xorg.conf
redeeman: it came in the 9xxx drivers
redeeman: i see nothing mentioned in nvidias readme
redeeman: http://redeeman.kaspersandberg.com:8001/xv_nvidia.png
cxo: i know its not there
cxo: i'll look it up for you
redeeman: that's how xv comes to look 50/50 when you start opengl while xv runs
redeeman: and if one doesent stop it inside of ~10seconds
redeeman: it's hardlock
redeeman: cxo: so nvidia have made a crappy hardlock bug, and a workaround is known, yet they are just silent?
redeeman: wtf is wrong with those morons
redeeman: they should be put in prison for such shit
Kano: hmm you ran glxgears while doing xv?
redeeman: Kano: nah, i don't remember what i did, i took the screenshot a few days ago
redeeman: but any opengl app can do it
Kano: well will check
cxo: redeeman, search in the readme for it, i'm sure its mentioned in an appendix
redeeman: this appears to be a 6xxx/7xxx specific thing
redeeman: cxo: it wasnt last time i checked
cxo: its an amalgamation of "enable gl with xv"
cxo: i needed it for the longest time...
Kano: redeeman: no corruptions with 177.13 + mplayer -vo xv + running glxgears on nv6200
redeeman: Kano: well.. it happens here, haven't tried 177.13 though
redeeman: but i seriously doubt they fixed it
Kano: but i am using pure 32 bit
redeeman: this is pure 64bit
cxo: yes it was an issue with x11 6.9
cxo: thats why i needed it
redeeman: cxo: that's what i use
redeeman: is there a workaround?
cxo: its just an option you throw into your display or driver section in xorg.conf
redeeman: well.. i cant find it, even in the appendix
cxo: cant remember what it was....looking
redeeman: fucking moron nvidia
redeeman: they should just god dammit break such stuff
redeeman: i really feel there should be some severe punishment on companies doing that
redeeman: $1bn fine
redeeman: for each PERSON having the problem
cxo: i dont know if this is related, Option "AllowGLXWithComposite" "boolean"
redeeman: i don't have that option
redeeman: plus i don't have compositing enabled
redeeman: oh wait, i do have compositing enabled in xorg
redeeman: but i don't use any compositing window manager
cxo: throw it in, doesnt hurt
cxo: i guess you want "true" there
redeeman: im just gonna disable the composite extension, i don't use it anyway
Kano: wireless keyboards are really fun ;)
Kano: redeeman: of course i use that meantioned options in nvidia config
cxo: yes especially when you need to change battery every 2 months
Kano: yes needed to replace em now
redeeman: cxo: you cant find any links for the specific workaround for 6.9?
cxo: i googled a bit, nothing came up, i'm at the office, i could probably look more when i'm at home
Sam1337: I just read that lgp is implementing drm into future games.
maligor: linux doesn't make a very good drmed platform
Exopaladin: I'm not sure how you could sanely implement it really
maligor: you could do what steam does
Exopaladin: even that has been broken though
maligor: cdrom checks are what might be a bit useless, and possibly hard to do
maligor: since you'd probably require the installation of a kernel driver
Sam1337: No thanks.
maligor: or maybe rw perms to cdrom device would be enough
Exopaladin: anything involving a kernel blob would be fairly stupid, they'd have to keep updating it when the kernel changes if people want to continue playing
Sam1337: I wouldn't install a binary kernel blob on my system.
Sam1337: Unless I really had to.
maligor: I think the latest windows copy protections use kernel drivers
maligor: like securom
maligor: but not entirely sure
Exopaladin: is UUID used on all filesystems? could try using some sort of online verification system using that (login, submit the UUID of the partition the game will be running on, then have the game check against the site on startup)
Sam1337: I don't think anybody here uses Windows though.
maligor: Exopaladin, heh, just easier to use unique cdrom keys
Exopaladin: mmh
Kano: Exopaladin: you can easyly change uuids
Kano: the only way to go are online based verify systems
Exopaladin: fair enough, wasn't sure if they were based partly on drive serial or something
maligor: lgp should move to online distribution anyway
maligor: small volumes drive up price unnessesarily
Kano: does anybody see a reason for copy protecting single player games online?
cxo: where there is drm, there is a hacker, so says cxo
cxo: and hexeditors, and common sense, and hackerish'ness
Kano: well debuggers are used then
Kano: for a single player game no protection is really possible
Kano: for multiplayer you can check for unique ids and block too many users with the same id
Sam1337: I shared my ut2004 key with a friend who wanted to try the game.
Sam1337: I hope his windoze machine doesn't get haxx3d and my key stolen and used by lots of people and banned.
maligor: Kano, disassemblers you mean
Kano: well disassembling is static
maligor: advanced disassemblers have inbuilt debuggers
Kano: well maybe the other way around
maligor: no, not really :P
maligor: debuggers themselves are rather built for use when you have sources
cxo: Sam1337, your key is a hoe
maligor: I made a softfiregl patch on linux with objdump tho
maligor: felt a bit silly since I don't have software that gain anything from it, but it was a learning experience
cxo: man, i's been hacking binary blobs since before binary...
Kano: well i used objdump for getting rid of the xorg checks of fglrx
maligor: heh
maligor: it's interesting how the firegl mode is done by using a single bit
Kano: did not look for that issue
maligor: makes it feel a bit silly what with firegl cards costing 4-6x the consumer model
cxo: my sister has a quadro
Kano: any speed increase with your hack?
maligor: yes.
Kano: for which apps?
maligor: specviewperf, I don't have any of the targetted 'pro' apps
cxo: its good with really wide renders, like 6k x 4k pixels, but its slow for games
maligor: blender gained absolutely nothing from it
Kano: well my fglrx card is slow, no need to "tune" it ;)
maligor: also a interesting side effect was that glxgears lost half it's framerate ;)
Kano: i put it only in a system when i want to test new ati drivers
cxo: anything with the word "fire" in its name shouldnt be allowed to be slow
cxo: if it is, the marketing dude needs to be sacked
maligor: cxo, well, the firegl cards are friggen fast
cxo: man i want a 4870!
cxo: so bad right now
maligor: they're the same cards as the consumer ones except for one bit too
maligor: probably set in the bios
cxo: but i know i'm gonna be frustrated with the drivers and wish i bought an nvidia
maligor: and some differences in hardware setups
cxo: but the card just looks too good, as compared to that black brick 280gtx
maligor: cxo, they're not too bad
cxo: what are they gonna call the next nvidia, 380gtxlmnop
maligor: the video overlay sync issue is still a bit annoying tho
cxo: open source or fglrx?
maligor: fglrx
maligor: I have a hd 3870
cxo: the ati website doesnt even list a driver for 4xxx series
cxo: not even on windows
maligor: the fglrx driver has had pci ids for RV770 for a while
maligor: 8.5 and 8.6 atleast have it
Kano: it still have
Sam1337: use the open source driver
Kano: just on 8-6 some clever guy remove the comments from the header
cxo: they should just out source the drivers
cxo: they cant write drivers, and they've proved it quite thoroughly now
maligor: can't do that because of DRM and FireGL
maligor: cxo, how so?
cxo: out-source, as in, get some else to write the drivers
cxo: maligor, ati drivers never worked for me, windows or linux
cxo: i always had to do some magic to install it
maligor: as I said, they work fine for me
cxo: hit and miss
Sam1337: ati drivers worked for me on windoze
maligor: I play savage 2 and etqw on it
cxo: yeah, they work if you can get them installed
maligor: the installer's better than nvidia's if you use one of the big distroes
maligor: it'll actually generate packagemanager packages
Sam1337: Is Debian Etch one of the big distros?
Kano: well for etch you can use my script to autoinstall fglrx
Sam1337: Great all I need to do now is buy an ati graphics card again.
cxo: haha
cxo: you own an ati card maligor ?
vadi2: maligor: come join s2
Exopaladin: I keep considering buying savage 2
vadi2: it'
vadi2: 's awesome
cxo: i have the same problem vadi2
cxo: the dam ' key
vadi2: Yeah, but my biggest beef with this keyboard is that the f keys aren't separated. though I sometimes hit enter instead of ' too.
maligor: vadi2, channel s2 or game s2? :P
maligor: cxo, yes
maligor: hd 3870 as I said
vadi2: game s2
vadi2: and my batteries in the mouse just died
vadi2: argh
maligor: that's why I use with cord mice
maligor: vadi2, mm.. what was your nick in s2
vadi2: vadi
vadi2: and I'm on a laptop <3 my nano logitech mouse
cxo: maligor, have you own nvidia cards?
cxo: ^owned
maligor: yes
maligor: also for informational purpose, I've used linux for ~10 years
cxo: what was your latest nvidia card?
maligor: 8600
cxo: is there a big difference to the 3870?
maligor: performance wise?
cxo: well overall, image quality, and performance
maligor: I can play games now at 1680x1050
Kano: i would go for 9800 gtx+
cxo: vaporware
maligor: I'd go for 4870
cxo: i'm think 4870 too
maligor: mostly because I like amd's new strategy
cxo: depending on who is the more civil, 280gtx or 4870
maligor: and the driver development has picked up speed now
maligor: it does have it's issues tho
Kano: the strategy is nice for lowend cards
cxo: i'd go with whichever card is quieter and uses less power
cxo: perf is relatively the same
Exopaladin: I'll go with whichever performs better under linux and is sanely priced when I build my new PC in september
Kano: but not possible to replace the binary drivers if you want to play games which require real gfx power
maligor: Exopaladin, and yeh, s2 is well worth the price
maligor: quite cheap now too because of the dollar
Exopaladin: yeah, I'll probably buy it when I have money in a couple of weeks
cxo: 9800gtx is $199 on tiger
m-c__: So, what exactly is real-gfx-power? I am playing games right now without even DRI or 3D features of the RadeonHD ! :-D
Exopaladin: wow, that's annoying.. 9800 GTX here is £180 :P
Kano: well look for 8800 gts with 512 mb
Kano: thats the same chip
Kano: just some features are not unlocked with the win driver
m-c__: I am just saying, it's relative what people want to do for games. Not everyone is going to tune every part of their computer for the next release of UnrealQuakeCrysis III
cxo: Exopaladin, you guys get topgear, we're more than even
Exopaladin: I have an 8800GT I'm happy with anyway, won't be buying anything else until I build my new PC
Kano: well a 9800gtx is no real upgrade from 8800 gt
Exopaladin: I don't consider paying double for some PC components being worth getting a show that you can download via bitorrent within an hour of it airing :P
cxo: doesnt matter
cxo: misses british tele
cxo: i grew up watching BBC 1,2 and 3, thats all we got where i lived
Exopaladin: I'd gladly swap Top Gear for paying half price on electrical goods and most stuff in general
vadi2: maligor: you're on a full server :(
Exopaladin: (I do actually like Top Gear, I just hate being ripped off)
cxo: how much would it cost to ship it from the U.S?
Exopaladin: not much, the main problem is if you get hit for customs + VAT + if you have to return it :P
maligor: vadi2, so were you :P
vadi2: maligor: I'm not on one now!
vadi2: there's also some chick voice now
vadi2: I think she says if you go on a killing spree, but it's hard to tell
vadi2: oi, I just sucked as a malpha so bad
maligor: what a weird game that was, the enemy got malphas first, they must've had 5 of them around before we got ours, still, victory :P
vadi2: pew pew, finally got my first maliken
vadi2: killed 4 peeps with the spinning :)
vadi2: come join our game. it's nuts
cxo: what game are you playing?
vadi2: savage 2
vadi2: what server don't know
maligor: vadi2, have to head off to sleep
m-c: wow - I put a drop of oil on one of my desktop computer fans. what a big difference - can't believe I lived with that noise for so long! :-D
m-c: this was helpful ... http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,2135514-3,00.htm?r=1
starkmjolk: m-c: would that be valid for both ball-bearing and the other kind that I don't know the english word for? :D
m-c: The link I provided above was for a "sleeve" bearing
starkmjolk: ah, that would be the other kind, "glidlagrad fläkt" in swedish :)
m-c: I suspect a drop of heavy oil or grease would work for ball bearings, too.
starkmjolk: yeah, I think it should but I might just aswell ruin 'em :)
m-c: I have this bad feeling I put the fan in backward
m-c: Ah - no, it's right. Hard to tell which way the air is blowing, with all the fans in there
starkmjolk: :)
m-c: Do you think the open source AMD drivers will be of any limitation to openGL libraries?
starkmjolk: with what gfx?
m-c: I am chatting with one of the developers of savage 2 who wonders if the drivers will ever fully support openGL 2 or the upcoming openGL 3 specifications. I thought openGL libraries were handled by higher-level applications than the drivers
redeeman: doesent mesa already support opengl2?
m-c: that's what I was thinking - that mesa was fairly independent of the drivers
redeeman: yeah with the current architecture it pretty much is
redeeman: dri/drm then adds hardware acceleration for mesa
redeeman: ofcourse provided the hardware actually supports it
redeeman: with gallium3d, even hardware not supporting new features, should get support in the form of a fallback software renderer
m-c: well - things should get clearer, moving forward, as these libraries have more insight into the open drivers and open specifications
m-c: And, plus, the savage 2 programmers care about the libraries, and not so much the drivers, so their perspective is skewed
cxo: heh nvidia stock dropped 16%. after ati released the 48xx
cxo: and ati's went up 3.2%
cxo: (AMD)
cxo: looks like the nvidia fan boys are getting scurrrrrrrred
michaellarabel: cxo: Umm I don't see it down 16%, even in after-hour trading....
cxo: not over night man
cxo: that would have really sucked
michaellarabel: No, what day you talking about? Thursday it opened at $20 a share and is now just down to $19.35... not 16%
cxo: http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=13961
cxo: thats where i read it
michaellarabel: Eh... 22-day change.
cxo: wats that mean?
vadi2: it means over the source of 22 days
vadi2: *course
cxo: yo
starkmjolk: lo
cxo: wats goin' on
starkmjolk: phone atm, then sleep
cxo: wikid
vadi2: lol
starkmjolk: now first phase is over :)
cxo: remember to keep your windows closed, and stop the bugs from coming in
cxo: heh firefox just gave me a warning about phoronix.com
cxo: "Web Site Identity Not Verified"
vadi2: I got nothing against LGP's validation thing except it looks fugly
vadi2: Couldn't they at least do it in GTK 2 with some stock icons?
vadi2: and does it integrate with they keyring thing?
vadi2: *the
redeeman: keyring is a gnome thing
vadi2: and?
vadi2: kde has their kwallet or something
redeeman: that would be a bad dependency
vadi2: oh, noes. using existing functionality is baaad.
redeeman: no
redeeman: but requiring gnome would be bad
redeeman: having it optional, sure, im all for it
vadi2: same thing.
redeeman: no it's not the same
cxo: god i hate fukin linux
cxo: when it crashes, it really crashes
redeeman: yeah right
redeeman: lsmod | grep -i nvidia
redeeman: that ought to tell you whose fault it is
vadi2: (it also sends all your passwords to them too)
Deanjo: You know if publication costs are so high, then why don't they do something smart like make the binary downloadable and use the existing resource files on the windows version @ a reduced cost.
cxo: this was thunderbird's fault,
redeeman: or have the entire distribution happening via a torrent-like system?
cxo: i was sending 2 emails, using 2 separate exchange accounts
redeeman: cxo: thunderbird crashes your entire system?
Deanjo: Yup, pay for your key,
cxo: yeah
redeeman: and how would thunderbird be able to achieve this?
cxo: and i got this message "Copy Error"
cxo: and it just sat there for a second or two, and then froze
redeeman: yeah ill bet it's nvidias fault if you have it loaded
redeeman: it always is
Deanjo: riiiiiiiiiiiight
cxo: i dont know, shm? sems etc...
redeeman: hell, even on winblows nvidia is responsible for nearly half of ALL crashes
redeeman: on linux the scores are alot higher
cxo: thats actually true about windows at least
Deanjo: On vista
cxo: i think even microsoft had said something about that
redeeman: and XP aswell
Deanjo: No that was only on Vista
redeeman: that SPECIFIC stat was
redeeman: it said nothing about xp
redeeman: but there have been others
redeeman: for instance
redeeman: i saw a relatively big study a few years ago
redeeman: (~2005)
redeeman: and ~99% of linux crashes were nvidia
Deanjo: uhhuh
Deanjo: link
redeeman: linux itself is pretty damn fucking stable
Deanjo: link
redeeman: nvidia is a piece of crap garbage
cxo: not like it used to be
Deanjo: link
redeeman: Deanjo: i said 2005
Deanjo: Ya so?
redeeman: do you think i remember the link now?
cxo: the more people use it, the more crazy shit they put into the kernel, the more retarded (but must have) gui programs, just adds up
redeeman: cxo: when i say crashes, i don't mean random userspace crashes
redeeman: i mean kernel crashes
Deanjo: Hey man I just pulled up torvalds rant about the kernel devs wanting to ban blobs from 2006
redeeman: Deanjo: yeah that's easy to find
cxo: but most of those "userspace" crashes bring the entire machine down
Deanjo: So if it was that big of a deal it should be easier to find too
redeeman: cxo: no
cxo: man, my machine just went down
redeeman: cxo: if you run thunderbird as normal user it shouldn't be able to crash the system
redeeman: if it can, it's almost certainly because of xorg
redeeman: which in turn is then nvidia
cxo: normal user?
redeeman: as, aka not root
cxo: i'm not root
m-c: Deanjo: They did not just want to ban blobs.... they have no blobs
redeeman: then how exactly would it crash the system?
cxo: i dont know? locks, sems, shms etc...
redeeman: unless if it's xorg (which which case nvidia is a really really big chance)
redeeman: cxo: which nvidia has done god only knows with
Deanjo: They wanted to change the kernel to make trying to use a blob impossible m-c
cxo: yeah man, but i wasnt doing anything else
redeeman: yeah but you still had nvidia loaded
redeeman: why do you think the kernel has a "tainted" flag?
cxo: thats a bit naive
redeeman: no it's not
cxo: for the license
redeeman: nvidia does shitloads of modifications
cxo: i got "Copy Error" and gone
cxo: i'm presuming this is the copy from Drafts to Sent, on the remote imap folder
redeeman: cxo: believe me, the nvidia blob does VERY bad things
redeeman: for instance
redeeman: a week ago
redeeman: i had my kernel oops a few times
redeeman: in the vfs/xfs driver
redeeman: and me and a friend investigated
redeeman: turns out it's nvidia driver that causes it
redeeman: which ofcourse we cannot debug
Deanjo: OK show me the logs
cxo: how did you trace it?
Deanjo: I'm calling bullshit
cxo: me too
redeeman: cxo: by getting it ~5 times in a row on nvidia, then rebooting without nvidia, then not getting, then loading nvidia, and getting
redeeman: Deanjo: you can have the kernel message
Deanjo: Give me the logs
cxo: i dont know, seems like it could be anything
redeeman: yeah which doesent happen when nvidia is gone
redeeman: http://rafb.net/p/7oSAfz47.html
redeeman: now usually one wouldn't think this would have anything to do with nvidia
Deanjo: OH ok so it can't be what so ever a shitty PCI-E implementation which chipsets have well documented errata about?
redeeman: well.. what about the other pcie pheripherals then?
redeeman: why don't they cause problems?
cxo: heh, what kernel are you running?
redeeman: it says, 2.6.25
cxo: yeah i saw, is that just vanilla?
redeeman: yes
Deanjo: Dude, it's been well documented on MANY devices that causes that are blamed on devices have been because of shitty chipset errata
redeeman: Deanjo: frankly i don't care what it is, but reality is, that as soon as someone modprobes the god damn nvidia module is loaded, bad stuff happens
cxo: thats a memory error
redeeman: cxo: memory error exactly how?
Deanjo: look at ANY chipset white paper and that comes obvious
Deanjo: It's not uncommon for one device to expose a flaw in another
redeeman: yeah well in the case of nvidia, chances are it's nvidias fault
Deanjo: you haven't provided ANY proof
redeeman: no because unfortunately one cannot take nvidia to criminal court over this
Deanjo: if every thing was as stable as you claim there would not be 500+ kernel fixes in each release
cxo: it looks like the machine couldnt handle a page request, and instead of just segfaulting, it tried to lookup the page again
cxo: that can be caused by anything
redeeman: Deanjo: the vast majority is fixes to newly broken stuff
Deanjo: bullshit
cxo: higher chance its from fuse than nvidia
redeeman: Deanjo: that's a FACT
Deanjo: look at change logs, most of that stuff has been there for years
redeeman: cxo: lol yeah, it also happens without fuse
Deanjo: ffs there are still changes made on a daily basis to ISA devices
redeeman: well.. reality is, that stuff is alot more stable without the nvidia blob, than with it
redeeman: you don't have to be some sort of professor to make the connection
Deanjo: Well reality is, I find the EXACT opposite
redeeman: then we have 1 of 2 cases going on here
redeeman: 1: you are not telling the truth
redeeman: 2: you are hitting an extremely fortunate combination of systems
Deanjo: Or 3 your just an extremely isolated case
redeeman: i am far from the only one having issues
Deanjo: Your far from being the majority
redeeman: the nvidia drivers are notorious for being unstable
Deanjo: so are ATI's?
redeeman: yes
Deanjo: So are many of the DRI drivers
redeeman: the difference being
redeeman: that most of the stuff works on nvidia
redeeman: while being unstable
redeeman: on fglrx stuff tends to not work at all
redeeman: lol
cxo: are you running an rt patch?
cxo: wait you said vanilla....
cxo: something from userspace called stat and mmap, and it died when it tried to pass the page in
redeeman: well.. actually, i probably have 1 minor patch
cxo: that definitely not the nvidia driver
redeeman: to add a device id to an alsa driver
redeeman: but that was accepted upstream
redeeman: and is extremely unlikely to cause this :P
cxo: it might be coming from an app that uses the nvidia driver
cxo: but not from the driver itself
cxo: its a syscall from libc
cxo: the kernel doesnt map memory like that for kthreads
cxo: i'm just going to lookup some of these symbols....1 sec
cxo: yup, as i thought, its coming from a userspace app
redeeman: it can be provoked by just opening konqueror/gimp alot of times
redeeman: and it doesent happen without nvidia module loaded
redeeman: oh also i believe it was fixed in the latest 2 driver releases
cxo: yes, i know, its nothing to do with the nvidia driver
cxo: so what were you goin' on about earlier?
redeeman: what do you mean?
cxo: you said " turns out it's nvidia driver that causes it"
redeeman: yes
cxo: any large file stat would cause that error
redeeman: then why the hell does the same operation only cause such a "large file stat" when the nvidia driver is there?
cxo: which version kernel did you say fixed it?
redeeman: no kernel upgrade, just changing to the latest nvidia driver made it go away again
cxo: i'm pretty sure its the lock in the xfs driver
redeeman: well.. either way, if i had not had the nvidia driver, i'd have NEVER seen that
cxo: man, all dogs have 4 legs, but it doesnt mean all 4 legged animals are dogs
cxo: you're being a n00b, by saying NVIDIA caused it, nvidia caused it, a 100 times
redeeman: yeah okay, so maybe ONE bug isn't directly nvidias fault
redeeman: then we can go to the next problem
redeeman: message like these:
redeeman: NVRM: Xid (0001:00): 12, COCOD 00000003 beef3901 00000039 00001718 00000000
redeeman: NVRM: Xid (0001:00): 30, L1 -> L0
redeeman: followed by a ~1-10 minute lockup
cxo: the driver is shit, we know that, but it doesnt cause xfs file lockups
redeeman: nvidias official position is that that particular error message, CANNOT happen
cxo: thats also bs, because the watchdog would have kicked it out of memory after 30s
redeeman: well.. i know for a fact it's more tahn 1 minute
redeeman: because i stayed with it for ~1 min
redeeman: then went away for ~8-9 minutes
redeeman: and it was not locked anymore
cxo: i hope this is not your personal pc, these sort of things can get time consuming
redeeman: (i only got that message on 6600gt)
redeeman: however, it does appear to be a fault on EVERY 6600gt i have seen
redeeman: when i first got that message
redeeman: i was told it was due to broken card
redeeman: so i bought a new one, from a different manufacturer
redeeman: same issue
redeeman: (funnily enough it came in an nvidia driver update :P)
redeeman: and then a few months later i talked to a guy on irc that had the same issue
cxo: michaellarabel, "...the GeForce 9800GTX is dropping in price and captivating the interest of a different segment of users."
cxo: the poor linux users?
cxo: haha
redeeman: i'd rather give two times the cost of a 9800gtx, for a pcie X4500 from intel
cxo: x4500?
redeeman: yes GMA X4500
cxo: firegl?
cxo: the intel chip?
redeeman: unfortunately intel doesent sell it outside of their northbridges :(
redeeman: and im afraid the bribe required to have them produce ONE such card would be more than i can pay
Brains: /clear/win 3
cxo: heh? this isnt sed you know
Brains: cxo: No, but my client is irssi and I sometimes miss/forget the enter key...
cxo: were are my benchmarks of the 4870 and gtx280
cxo: stamps his feet
cxo: toms is being some retarded review on a $4k gaming machine
cxo: s/being/doing
Brains: You don't have $4k to drop on a gaming machine? Tsk tsk...
Brains: must stop associating with the riffraff.
Deanjo: I drop that on my firewall :P
cxo: $4k on a gaming computer, is like spending $500k on a sports car
cxo: carrera or mercialago
cxo: its not a hard fukin decision
Deanjo: I mean doesn't everybody use a 8-way opteron for smoothwall? :P
cxo: yet we need a 10 page review on it
redeeman: i do plan on using an E8400 on a fileserver :D
redeeman: and i have been known to use E4500 on a simple NAT'er
redeeman: :>
Deanjo: thinks they can try to pry his Sun V20 away from his cold lifeless hands
Brains: can't remember the time before last that he even spent $400... (The last time was on his N810.)
m-c: What's wrong with the option to get a $4k rig? I am sure there are some people who toil away and want the best gaming rig money can buy. And there sure are people willing to sell it. ;-)
m-c: Plus, today's $4k rig is next year's $500 rig.
cxo: thats my point
cxo: it depreciates faster then cars do
m-c: I'm interested in next year's $500 rig, so I'll read it. ;)
Deanjo: You can do alot for a $1000 nowdays
m-c: Now, if he could tell me what next year's $4k rig would be, then it'd be interesting!! ha ha... Yeah, $1000 would buy you a spectacular machine if you shopped the parts yourself.
Brains: You can do a lot with $500 these days. Pretty amusing how far we've come.
m-c: Very amazing. /me agrees.
cxo: especially with cards like the 4870 in the sub $200
Deanjo: recalls selling 8088's for 3k
m-c: Was not too many years ago people said that a computer is out of date as soon as you take it out of the box. Today, with Linux at least, $1000 will get you a computer that'd last 20 years
cxo: remembers buying Pentium 75 for $2k
Deanjo: and that was was with no monitor, printer or even harddrive
cxo: 8088 was dangerous chip man, it had onboard cache!
Deanjo: Meh, swapped mine for a NEC v20 Chip
m-c: cxo: I had a $2k 386/sx ;)
Brains: m-c: I suppose that depends on what you mean by out of date... It wasn't all that long ago that I retired my Pentium from duty.
cxo: 4 way _set_ associate cache
Deanjo: That sucker could do 8 Mhz
cxo: was the shizzo
cxo: heh mine was 5.7mhz
Deanjo: I replaced my crystal :P
redeeman: i have an amiga 1200
redeeman: and then i got a blizzard 12/30 50mhz card
redeeman: that wtfpwned
redeeman: and 32mb ram, lol
redeeman: it was insane
m-c: Brains: I am talking about keeping up with modern desktop tasks, nothing too extreme, with everything that is expected from a modern computer (video, internet, office, for today)
Deanjo: lol I had a 286 upgrade card for the old XT
Deanjo: It added, DMA SUPPORT!!!!
Deanjo: rox out to listening to music on his Covox Speech Thing
m-c: You want to do ray-trace and HD video editing? They probably do not yet have a computer that is going to be sufficient for you. But, regular joes are just watching video on youtube these days.
Deanjo: You can watch video nowdays?
Deanjo: OMG!
m-c: And they are buying Windows Vista to do it
Deanjo: lol, morons
Deanjo: HD delivered by hard media is gonna die a quick death
Deanjo: It's all about using the "TUBES" nowdays
m-c: Gosh, I hope so. Let's get rid of optical discs.
Deanjo: iptv baby!!!
m-c: I like NetFlix little streaming film device they released (for Linux, so they say). That seems like the future of video entertainment.
Deanjo: You don't think ISP's are going to 100mbit speeds to surf the web do ya? :P
Deanjo: " I need faster email dammit!!!!"
m-c: Yeah, but I hope we can bit-torrent the whole thing and encrypt everything.
Deanjo: Where there is a will there is a way :P
m-c: I should set up a business like that - - -
m-c: Cheap yearly subscription, and every week there is a new full-length movie to download via bit-torrent
Deanjo: I can even see a day where websites are served using a p2p like delivery
m-c: Keeps bandwidth required down, and keeps the legal use of bittorrent up.
Deanjo: distributed delivery is the future.
m-c: Maybe
cxo: if i can get a 280gtx for < $350 i'm buying one
cxo: its so friggin' fast
Deanjo: It has to be, it's cheaper in the long run m-c
m-c: Or maybe the ISP has to inspect every packet, just in case.
m-c: They have to protect the children and terrorists from porn.
Deanjo: Ya but allow softporn on the tv lol
m-c: Or the children porn from terrorists. Or something.
m-c: And if every single one of your packets are not opened up and inspected, the porn-loving children terrorists win.
Deanjo: I thought it was to protect the "tubes" from man-juice
m-c: And in that case, distributed delivery will never happen
Deanjo: Less calls to FOIS-rotor-rooter that way
m-c: (Oh, but any traffic from your ISP's "preferred" network traffic partners, like Disney, will go at full speed.)
m-c: So, we need to make lots of businesses that use bit-torrent and use it legally.
m-c: Shouldn't be too hard
m-c: Just a matter of getting people buying into it. ;)
m-c: goes to look for some legal bittorrent downloads.
Deanjo: You mean like steam?
Deanjo: It's based on BT
redeeman: and blizzard updates
cxo: Brains, hows that 4850 going
Brains: cxo: Haven't really done anything more since last night... Still only one monitor turned on, have to --swap-monitor to see what should be on the other screen. Other than that (and I think no acceleration is turned on at the moment), everything is peachy. *chuckle* I do think that the colors and 2D are a bit nicer than the 7600GS but that might be some "buyer's hope".
cxo: they say the card runs hot
cxo: like really hot, 85degC
cxo: do you find that happening?
cxo: (water boiling at 100degC for those F people)
redeeman: 8800gtx gets 85deg at idle
redeeman: C
redeeman: it's nuts
Brains: Under windows, CCC shows idling at 80C and load is about 87C IIRC. Which is why I'm thinking about getting an accelero or something....
cxo: thats weird the card should idle at like 40degC
cxo: must be a driver issue
Brains: blames the cooler. "Pretty much all the reviews say swapping the cooler out gives really low and expected temps. One review was even talking about 25C at idle, a far cry from the stock cooler's 80C in their test."
Brains: The driver / fan is apparently set to ramp up slow and late to keep it quiet but even that shouldn't cause an idle up that high.
Brains: thinks he even remembers seeing a review that said removing the stock cooler and reapplying the paste dropped the temps as well (but he might be confusing that with another card).
cxo: the 9800gtx 512meger is going for $229 at the local
cxo: is it worth it or should i go for the 4850, cos benches are about equal
cxo: with the 4850 doing a tad better, but we all know about the suckage with ati and linux...
cxo: at 1600x1200 the 4850 beats the 9800gtx at everything actually
redeeman: what about 2560x1600?
cxo: 9800gtx is faster
cxo: by about 2fps
cxo: but its variable
cxo: the 4850 is sometime faster, by the same amount
cxo: no a dominance like at 1600x1200
cxo: ^not
Brains: was wanting to run his 1680x1050 LCDs at native and the 4850 at the price I got made it a no brainer. He's glad 'cause he was waffling back and forth among the various choices.
cxo: me too
cxo: i cant decide, ati or nvidia
cxo: budget ~$250, but expendable if its really going to be worth it
Brains: 'Course, so far, I'm down one monitor... *chuckle*
cxo: its weird at 1600x1200 the 4850 is really happy
cxo: its beast the 9800gtx at everything, i mean every freakin' game you can think of
cxo: s/beast/beats
Brains: I think that the issue with the higher reses (for all cards) is the memory bandwidth.
cxo: yeah, pushing 4 mega pixel renders a gazillion times a second onto the bus is not easy
cxo: you can also get a 10ftp boost ( <= 1600x1200 ) if you OC to 700/2300
cxo: (quite safe with stock cooler)
cxo: s/ftp/fps
cxo: but the fun really kicks in at CF, it just murders
cxo: 16xAA, 16xAF and just run crysis at whatever res you want and just enjoy it
cxo: 2x 4850s is <$400 investment,
cxo: faster than a single 280gtx
cxo: use less power than a single 280gtx
cxo: and cheap than a single 280gtx
cxo: ^cheaper
redeeman: can you run it at 2560x1600?
Brains: Oh, I forgot to mention that I played with OC'ing under windows via the CCC... Maxed out the GPU (think it was 700 on their tool) and something like 1150 on the memory.
Brains: wishes he had the cash to drop on 2x 4850s during the sale. 'Course, he'd need to get a Crossfire mobo and then reinstall everything so he's probably happier that he didn't.
redeeman: i have crossfire mobo
Exopaladin: mine half supports crossfire :P
cxo: ok its topgear time!
Exopaladin: it's supported, but the second slot only does 4x speed so the second card won't exactly be operating at full potential
cxo: switches off all the lights, disconnects the phone, locks the door, and turns on the Nak
Exopaladin: heh
dashcloud: hi, if I'd like to use S/MIME and sign my emails, what choices for certificates do I have? I know about thawte, but that's it pretty much
redeeman: doesent verisign offer it?
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus et al: Just finished some revisions in trondheim-12 and now PTS has an easy and clean threading system in place for modules.
dashcloud: they do, but thawte is the "cheaper" subsidiary I've heard
dashcloud: I'd rather not pay for a signing certificate unless I really have to
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: is that branch publicly accessible from phorogit?
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus: I am not sure... I push it to git and it says "everything updated" not sure what I need to do off hand to create a remote branch
dashcloud: I saw the update about the new point release of the test suite, but it seemed a little short on details on the new video encoding test suite- anything written about it specifically?
michaellarabel: the video-encoding test suite is just of mplayer and ffmpeg tests right now
dashcloud: the regression tests, or something else?
michaellarabel: timed sample encoding of video files
dashcloud: okay
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: I'm not familiar with the inner workings of git, but it doesn't look like I can see the new branch on phorogit.
uncle_fungus: if you run `git branch` on the server does it show trondheim-12?
michaellarabel: Yeah, it just shows master
michaellarabel: I'll try manually copying the files to the server
cxo: wow that was orgasmic
cxo: i went through 2 packets of crisps, 2 cokes and 4 bars of chocolate
cxo: "..mek mistake, i keeeel you"
cxo: man i cant wait to see the 600-benz
cxo: hey michaellarabel how come you didnt compare the 9800gtx to the 4850?
cxo: that's its intended rival anyways
michaellarabel: cxo: It will be, but the 4850 had a BIOS bug when I did the 9800GTX testing. The 4850 results will contain the numbers.
cxo: bios bug?
cxo: the video card bios?
cxo: what manufacturer?
cxo: i think its funny how everyone talks about Folding@Home now when it comes to video cards...
vadi2: ?
cxo: well its always mentioned now, as if its something people look for when buying a video card
cxo: because of whatever API (CUDA and friends) that lets you do that in the background
vadi2: never heard it that way. I didn't like it much either when I tried it
vadi2: that mono thing abused my cpu quite badly..
cxo: do the new nvidia cards look ugly or what!?
cxo: its just this big black box
cxo: thats probably going to bump into my hard drives...
cxo: and all the ati cards are hot red, with a transparent casing....
cxo: single slot too
cxo: You know what will really suck, if i buy a ati card and nvidia makes their drivers open source....
cxo: bastards tigerdirect have the 4850 and the 9800gtx at the same price, $243.99
Deanjo: heh cxo, some of us prefer stealthy look vs the "OMG look at me!!!" . Personally I think it's a lot more satisfying blowing away that new mustang in my 80 Chev 1/2 ton that looks stock then if it was the other way around.
cxo: yeah thats the way to go
cxo: "hidden power" is what is sexy
cxo: i've got an old merc i've been thinking of throwing a ls6 crate into one of these days
cxo: 400horses in car that weight 1.2tons...
cxo: thats more power/weight than an e55 amg
cxo: but whoever has the time
cxo: i'll be retired by the time i get round to doing it
cxo: but for a video card, i think the shinier it looks the better
Deanjo: http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/deanjo/my54.jpg <---my "flash" vehicle 595 HP 393 stroker
cxo: most big black boxes emit the word "POWER", from the way servers are designed
Deanjo: 383
cxo: oooh nice toy
Deanjo: Ya used to be the water truck before my teenage hands got it lol
Deanjo: 4 years and soooooooooooo much money later
cxo: heh i can bet
cxo: i'm sorta drowned in work, lots of quick career changes etc... getting no time to do anything else but work
Deanjo: Now it only comes out for cruise nights and open drag night
cxo: i'll drive the merc, drag it at every traffic light i hit
cxo: the sort of suspension work i'd need to hold 400 horses, gives me a head ache even before looking at it
cxo: H&R have some very nice kits these days
cxo: engine swaps are really time consuming, and more expensive, the less time you have on your hands
Deanjo: Ya I've got a 68 SS Camaro sitting in the garage that has been a love/hate project going on 7 years now
cxo: damn
cxo: i'm not really a fan of american cars, but the 60s/70s mustang and challenger are notorious
Deanjo: I work on it, get sick of it, then walk away for a while rather then being tempted to take shortcuts
cxo: do you guys get a lot of snow there in sask..
Deanjo: Ya a fair amount usually
cxo: you probably didnt get 4.5meters like we did last season
Deanjo: Last couple of years have been above average
cxo: i think we broke the record for the city
cxo: which was set in 1989 i think, at 4.4meters
Deanjo: We do get big dumps but being the prairies it blows away as fast as it hits
cxo: oh i didnt know that
cxo: i usually have a snow hill 2 meters high on either side of my drive way
Deanjo: Ya on the farm the banks at the house were up to the roof
cxo: damn canadian weather, why do we live here...
Deanjo: When we get storms though, they are usually accompanied with 60-70 mph winds
cxo: it wasnt cold last season, didnt go below -25degC, but lots of snow
Deanjo: Oh we had our little cold snap in Dec or Jan IIRC
Deanjo: hit -50 ish
cxo: jeez
cxo: i think i'm good in my parker till about -35degC, but i cant stay out for more than 30mins
cxo: (30mins was my walk from the university, and i'd literally die if it was any longer ... )
Deanjo: Like I say, -50C to +50 C in a year is not unheard of in Sask. But then again your guys generally are alot more humid then us so your -35 probably feels like our -50
Deanjo: We had a pretty bad storm last year, 6 people died in the city from it. Stupid asses left their stuck car
cxo: thats extreme, -50 to +50 degC
cxo: should have stayed in the car
Deanjo: Yup
Deanjo: Of course they were all city folk. Farm people know better
Deanjo: Plus with how some of these kids dress like it's summer nowdays in the winter it's not surprising
cxo: heh weird, i'd thought city folk would have been to scared to leave the car
Deanjo: Farm people usually have their vehicles prepared with emergency items
cxo: i'm thinking of getting an old land rover or something this year, i got tired of pushing the car out of the snow last year
Deanjo: Few candles, snowmobile suits, blankets, etc etc
Deanjo: Especially in Sask. Because of the wind it's hard to tell sometimes in the winter where the edge of the road is and where the ditch begins
cxo: heh yeah
cxo: what do people drive over there?
Deanjo: Same stuff you guys drive
Deanjo: a few more snowmobiles perhaps
cxo: ftp://cruiseoveride.selfip.net:/pub
cxo: woops, no : between /pub
cxo: ftp://cruiseoveride.selfip.net/pub/00008.jpg
Deanjo: The dumb people buy the 4 wheel drives thinking it can get them out of anything. The smart ones know that if it really is that bad out that you need a 4 wheel drive, you should probably stay at home.
cxo: see if that link loads...
Deanjo: nope
Deanjo: but the first one had some nice midget porn :P
cxo: heh
Deanjo: now it's loading
cxo: damn iptables...
Deanjo: Ya that looks about the same amount we got in the city this year
cxo: no limited split diff on that car
cxo: man i grew some muscles that winter
cxo: i'm thinking of getting some 400E springs and maybe some big winter tires this year...
cxo: or maybe a 1st gen land rover, supposed to be the best
cxo: damn its 00... got to be up in the AM......
cxo: adios
Deanjo: later
schestowitz: You need to rebut
vadi2: Interesting. One of the Loki programmers now works for Blizzard on WoW
d2kx: would be cool if they would port the game to linux (again!)
d2kx: even if i don't play it anymore for over two years
vadi2: He's a "Lead Software Engineer, Game Systems". Pretty sure they got the knowledge to...
d2kx: but that would be great for many people and other developers (EA Mythic *cough*) may consider doing the same
redeeman: blizzard does keep the linux client updated
redeeman: atleast they did for a long while
redeeman: the reason they don't release for linux is crapple
cxo: crapples
cxo: double crapples
redeeman: fortunately there is only one crapple
cxo: 4870 crysis benchmark, disappointing http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3715/112232498us4gp0.png
cxo: it better be damn cheap then
cxo: do they purposely make their cards 20% slower than nvidia's or what?
cxo: so its now the fight between power consumption, heat and noise level, between the 4870 and the 280gtx
redeeman: didn't someone say the 280gtx would make 65-66dB at max?
redeeman: it seems hard to believe even nvidia would go that far
redeeman: but if someone would, im sure it's nvidia
cxo: 60db is insane
redeeman: it really is
redeeman: but so is nvidia
Exopaladin: I can't imagine anyone would seriously make a card that loud
redeeman: i remember their 5xxx lineup, called the hair dryer
redeeman: Exopaladin: nvidia doesent care shit about what is normal
redeeman: if nvidia makes a 65dB card, im sure most of their brainded fans would buy it simply to have the loudest card ever
Exopaladin: I never used the 5 series, it was pretty poor really.. stuck with my TI4200 until the 6 series came out
cxo: i saw a funny youtube video about that
redeeman: lol cxo yeah
redeeman: they used the 5xxx to clean the road
cxo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdExkuvGySE&feature=related
redeeman: but the sad part is, nvidia originally intended to actually shove the product on the market like that
redeeman: cxo: you should post link to the actual video stream, not some crappy closed blob site
cxo: sorry, thats the only one i knew
cxo: the 4870 better be sub $300
maligor: Maybe ati has trouble with dx10
cxo: they boast dx10.1 even
maligor: but I don't see how that matters to us
redeeman: screw dx10 anyway, opengl performance is what matters
cxo: maybe that's slowing them down
d2kx: cxo: the crysis benchmarks are disappointing? you must be joking
maligor: the dx9 results on the crysis benchmark look fantastic tho
cxo: i expected a single 4870 to smoke the 280gtx
cxo: ...will continue this convo at the office.....
Exopaladin: it's disappointing if the 4870 is in the same price range as the 280gtx
redeeman: lol cxo then you were a fool
redeeman: nvidia is willing to do ANYTHING to be fastest
redeeman: they will achieve this
redeeman: not that it matters
maligor: what kind of thermal profile does the 280gtx have anyway?
d2kx: you can buy 2x 4870 for the price of GTX 280
redeeman: yeah lol the 280's price is insane
maligor: d2kx, or maybe an X2
d2kx: heat, power consumption, noise level, features, it is all on AMD's side
redeeman: maybe even 2x x2?
maligor: heh
redeeman: i heard the x2 will come at ~400usd
maligor: the truth about video cards post says GTX 280 SLI is 340W
maligor: single at 183W
maligor: but those results always are a bit off
d2kx: GTX 280 is crazy
maligor: 4870 doesn't seem that much better off tho
d2kx: who needs this card? 4870 X2 will be a lot faster for the same price
maligor: says it's at 157W for single
redeeman: well d2kx, theres also the matter of drivers
Exopaladin: the 4850 is the equivalent of $300 here for the 512MB model, not sure what the 4870 will be like
d2kx: let's wait for some proper HD 4870 vs. GTX 280 tests when it is officially launched
d2kx: 145€ in Germany for 4850
d2kx: cheap as ***
maligor: yeah, darned cheap for a just released card
Exopaladin: £140-£150 here, so roughly $300
maligor: but it might also be that the prices have finally gotten in sync with the dollar rates
redeeman: hah yeah right, it never is in sync
redeeman: damn 4850 is expensive here
maligor: I see a asus 4850 for 187eur here
redeeman: 200 euro here for cheapest 4850
Exopaladin: heh, £455 for the GTX 280, so $890 or 575 EUR
maligor: but that's the only card they list
redeeman: yeah i also only find asus
redeeman: i want displayport!
redeeman: won't there come an 4850 or 4870 with displayport?
Exopaladin: works out at 190 EUR for the 4850s as the average price, the 1GB model is rather more
maligor: you have a display with display port?-)
redeeman: yes
redeeman: why else would i want it?
d2kx: GTX 280 costs 499€ here
Exopaladin: yeah, we pay too much for hardware generally
redeeman: but atleast we don't live in USA
redeeman: which is worth the extra price
redeeman: hell, it's worth basically any monetary price
Exopaladin: eh, I'd probably take the USA over the UK
d2kx: I am fine here with Germany's hardware prices, it's much worse in other countries
Exopaladin: baring in mind that we're becoming the mini-US but with stupidly high prices
redeeman: lol yeah you are usa's puppy
maligor: d2kx, mm.. you wouldn't know any good german webshops that deliver all over EU :P
redeeman: shipping from germany is shit cheap
redeeman: the UK however
redeeman: they have smoked some heavy shit
redeeman: costs 20 times as much to denmark as from germany
redeeman: hell, it's cheaper to order stuff from the US than from uk
redeeman: despite the 20% vat
d2kx: :D
d2kx: poor UK people
Exopaladin: sometimes it seems like the companies here just can't be bothered to do any calculations so they just convert the USD price straight to GBP by changing the symbol :P
d2kx: that's what nvidia does in germany...
redeeman: lol sometimes they even set the gbp price higher :P
d2kx: it's crazy isn't it
Exopaladin: most companies in general do that here
redeeman: they should be punished for it
maligor: Exopaladin, yeh, same for EUR
maligor: I've seen lots of prices 1:1 USD:EUR
redeeman: in denmark they are often far worse, since we don't use euros
Exopaladin: not quite as bad though, we pay higher prices than most of Europe for electronic crap
redeeman: they feel free to make much more colorful currency conversions
Exopaladin: 1:1 USD:EUR isn't quite as bad as 1:1 USD:GBP :/
maligor: well, 1:1 USD:EUR conversion isn't fun with expensive photo gear
maligor: it's cheaper to order it from the USA
maligor: and that's after shipping and vat added to it
starkmjolk: it's usually 1:10 USD:SEK (sweden), and the dollar is hovering around 6 SEK atm :P
starkmjolk: so not far fetched from twice the price
Kano: michaellarabel: is it needed to test highend gfx cards with slow opteron cpu? even 200€ dual core intel cpus are faster!
Kano: michaellarabel: in your latest 9800 gtx test lots of tests are cpu limited
cxo: hey you can blame a guy for dreaming, that 10yrs after the 9700pro we could actually get an ati card worth buying
Kano: michaellarabel: dont yout think that there must be an issue when a 9600 gt scores the same as a 9800 gtx?
michaellarabel: Kano: Read last page of article
Kano: i hope you switch to higher clocked intel dual/quad core as main test system instead using a 8core opteron
cxo: whats wrong with an 8core opteron?
Kano: no games buys that
Kano: no gamer
cxo: duh
cxo: games you want a straight 1 with like a 10ghz clock speed
Kano: high price, server usuage in 99% of all cases
Kano: well maybe a dual for some background tasks
Kano: the more cores you have the more time you lose when you have to sync the tasks - the same problem have sli/crossfire configurations
Kano: that means a quad sli can be slower than triple sli
d2kx: even an athlon x2 @ 3 ghz will do for gaming
Kano: but not for benchmarking
Kano: top speed you only get from intel
michaellarabel: It's going to be an Intel Wolfdale running close to 4GHz
Kano: thats the right system
d2kx: may be true for etqw...
Kano: you could test sli performance when you have got 2 cards
Kano: i know how fast g92 is, as a 8800 gts 512 is maybe 5% slower only than the tested 9800 gtx
d2kx: have you seen how different CPUs behave with Windows games like Crysis? http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/hardware/prozessoren/2008/test_elf_prozessoren_athlon_phenom/25/#abschnitt_crysis
Kano: d2kx: you see E6600 -> Q6600 is 1 fps diff ;)
vadi2: I'm starting to wonder if crysis is just a badly-implemented over-hyped game (hence the big performance impact)
d2kx: wow great :D
Kano: well for games you really dont ned quad, thats for compiling
Kano: and this is more or less clear because there is usually only one rendering thread
d2kx: you get an athlon x2 @ 3,2ghz for 75€, still a difference if compared to the E8400 for 130€ I think when most games dont care (yet)
Kano: and if you use more you have to sync em
Kano: if that would scale so well then sli/crossfire would have to be much faster too
d2kx: lets wait for some phoronix crossfire benchmarks vs. nvidia sli, will be interesting
d2kx: especially with the 4870X2 which has several improvements in that area for better crossfire performance
Kano: it is faster for some games, but only at really high res needed
d2kx: yep
d2kx: 3x GTX280 and you still can't play Crysis at high resolution :D
Kano: because the game engine is crap
vadi2: there we go
d2kx: still, it's funny :D
cxo: thats cos crysis was written in c++
cxo: hides
Kano: maybe dx9/10 is so slow
Kano: ;)
redeeman: it's m$ crap, figures
d2kx: Crytek says Crysis: Warhead will not only look nicer than Crysis (...), but also perform much better even with higher graphics settings. They consider backporting the engine improvements back to Crysis, but you know that Crytek+Support=oh noez
Kano: i think for farcry they implemented a d3d + opengl renderer
d2kx: yep
d2kx: hopefully there will be some nice OpenGL 3 based games in the future
Kano: maybe ms payed em for creating a dx10 extra option
d2kx: "maybe"
d2kx: and nvidia payed them for not adding dx 10.1 render i guess
Kano: 10.1 does not really mater
Kano: nv waits for dx11 i think
d2kx: first AC patch: no 10.1 support anymore, second AC patch: crossfire performance is much worse... yeah, right
vadi2: I doubt they even had to pay anything.
vadi2: There are other ways to exert pressure :)
starkmjolk: nope, you still need vista so you don't get past the EULA :)
redeeman: michaellarabel: as far as i know xf86-video-ati isn't backed by amd?
Kano: you need vista sp1 to use dx10.1 - fine - and currently an ati card
vadi2: see! nvidia is helping linux.
Kano: the one or 2 effects you can use more is nothing you should spend your time one
d2kx: well AC ran much better with 10.1
Kano: as basically only very few ppl will be able to see em
Kano: d2kx: you do not own a card that supports dx10.1 features at all...
d2kx: DX 10 & DX 10.1 do not have any new effects AFAIK, they only allow developers to implement better ways of using them
d2kx: Kano: that changes in about 2 weeks
cxo: yeah more weird callbacks
Kano: d2kx: well one effect more + AA or so by default
maligor: 10 & 10.1 have geometry shaders
d2kx: who cares about the effects... if they can implement features to be faster than that's even better than new effects
Kano: it is time for shrinking gpu (and cpu) right now to gain more speed
d2kx: it is always time for that ;)
Kano: the first 45nm nvidia gpu is that shrinked G92 core used on the new 9800 gtx+ cards
d2kx: G92b is 55nm, not 45nm
Kano: this allows higher clockspeeds
d2kx: G200b is 55nm, too
maligor: and yeah, dx10 has some features that should make it more efficent if hardware supports the features
d2kx: 45nm will not arrive before G300 / R800
d2kx: well maybe with a RV770 refresh
Kano: right 55nm
starkmjolk: yeah, tsmc doesn't offer 45nm for such compex ICs yet
Kano: cpus are at 45nm already
d2kx: is G92 80nm or 65nm?
Kano: i think 65
starkmjolk: Kano: CPUs aren't made by TSMC, and when you say CPUs you mean intel CPUs :)
starkmjolk: d2kx: yeah, think anand said 65 in some table
Kano: well that is maybe the main issue why the fastest amd cpus are so slow against intel
Kano: maybe intel should produce em ;)
starkmjolk: hah, it is one of the reasons why intel is ahead in the top segment
starkmjolk: AMD is like a tenth of Intels size and don't have the same fab R&D
Kano: they have much more fabs
Kano: therefore i expect very high parallel gfx cores when they begin to produce those
d2kx: yeah AMD CPUs are really slow as hell, you know
Kano: i have got one amd cpu, still use it, but not for gaming
d2kx: I have a single core A64 @ 2,2 ghz running at the moment and it still does it for me
starkmjolk: I had a AXP until a few months ago, was just fine as a main for everything but VHDL synth for FPGAs
Kano: i dont have got a single core for daily use anymore
d2kx: still thinking about if I will gor for a fast Athlon X2 @ > 3 GHz and upgrade to Phenom K10.5 45nm later or if I'll go for a Phenom now
starkmjolk: now i have a 5000+ BE@3GHz, it's very very fast and responsive
Kano: d2kx: you are a gamer, phenom will not gain you 1 fps more
d2kx: well Kano, there *are* some games already that love four cores
d2kx: and there will be more in the future
d2kx: have you seen Race Driver: GRID benchmarksß
Kano: d2kx: one out of 100 ;)
d2kx: of course ;)
d2kx: but i would bite myself if there was quad core games coming everywhere after my purchase ^^
Kano: what i really want to see is that new physx accelleration with nvidia gpus
d2kx: well it's already here
d2kx: go try it
Kano: well not for my card
Kano: michaellarabel: you could try that on win, it should be enabled
d2kx: oh really? works for 9800 GTX and some .ini tweaks should do the trick I assume
d2kx: well as of today, PhysX is as useful as DX 10.1
Kano: well i can wait the month till it will be enabled for geforce 8 cards too not only geforce 9 as now
Kano: well usefull depends on definition. of course you could put the physics on the cpu too
Kano: and the "real" ageia physx hardware was clocked very low, so sometimes the framerates even dropped - while providing a few more effects
d2kx: I heard CellFactor (PhysX showcase game) runs horribly
Kano: the hardware was slow
cxo: i like how the 1.8ghz amd is only 13% slower than the best 3.2ghz xeon
d2kx: i am talking about 9800 GTX PhysX
cxo: (on that german site)
Kano: d2kx: show me link. i mainly only found benchmarks for vantage + some modded ut3 levels
starkmjolk: cxo: sounds just like the netburst days :P
Kano: you can play cellfactor without physx card of course too
cxo: makes people with the old amd x2 feel good
cxo: like me
starkmjolk: amd x2 isn't old in my world :)
Kano: i have got one of the first amd x2 cpus here
starkmjolk: not even EOL so can't be that old :)
Kano: it is enough for vdr + webbrowsing the same time ;)
maligor: the 4050E's are interesting too
d2kx: mmh
d2kx: 4850e costs about 15€ more for 2,5GHz x2 instead of 2,0
d2kx: and for the same price (4850e) you get the 5600+ with 65nm core with 2,9 GHz (60€)
Kano: or get the right board + new cpu ;)
d2kx: nothing wrong with that CPU
starkmjolk: the e's are all 45W right?
d2kx: yeah
d2kx: @ 2,9 GHz the athlon is 65W
starkmjolk: which is still very manageable
Kano: about 60€ for a p35 board
starkmjolk: I don't think I'd like to pass 80-85W for a new CPU, want to keep noise at a minimum level
redeeman: get watercooling :P
d2kx: well i wouldnt use P35 for gaming, as there are already games that really take advantage of PCIe 2.0
starkmjolk: I've had my share of water and also a vapo earlier
starkmjolk: and I might get water again, sooner or later
redeeman: i got water for my quadcore
Kano: d2kx: then P45 if you really care
redeeman: povray is really slow :|
starkmjolk: is there any decent external water cooling for quiet operation, cheaper than reserator XT?
redeeman: i just got the reserator
redeeman: it's really good
starkmjolk: I have most components from a few years back left actually, so might build my own instead. will need new water blocks atleast though
redeeman: yeah well :P this is my first watercooling, i felt most comfortable just getting the reserator
redeeman: but it manages my Q9450@3.2 really good
redeeman: temp is 30deg with ~16 hours of full load
starkmjolk: I'm often quite close to 30C air temp in the room so I won't get such temps ;)
Kano: redeeman: i addes some extra fans - but not for cooling the cpu but for hds
redeeman: i sometimes have 30deg air temp
Kano: do you cool your hd with water too?
redeeman: nope
redeeman: i don't cool my HD's
Kano: well currently i have got 3 in a raid5 + 1 extra
redeeman: i have 2 in it, 32deg and 34
Kano: but ich9r does not work with linux yet, only build that raid for testing
redeeman: i use ich9r
redeeman: not the raid function, but well :P
Kano: yes without raid no problem
redeeman: i don't trust hardware raid
redeeman: is ich9r really hardware raid?
Kano: i would need a nforce 750i or 780i for testing raid 5 with nvidia
starkmjolk: no consumer mobo has 'hardware' raid afaik
Kano: well do you know what Q45 will even have?
redeeman: encryption you said
Kano: yes
Kano: want to try that
redeeman: what algorithms will it support?
redeeman: and how are keys managed?
redeeman: and all that stuff
Kano: dont know
Kano: but transparent to os i guess
redeeman: but most importantly, will the implementation be OH so identical to the software implementations of the algorithms?
Kano: very likely that it will be win only
starkmjolk: don't trust AES, the fact that the US millitary urges people to use it gives me a bad feeling... :P
redeeman: yeah lol starkmjolk
redeeman: that's quite bad
Kano: aes is open, nobody broke it
starkmjolk: not officially no
Kano: (yet)
redeeman: my current fileserver uses encryption on each disk separately
redeeman: with 6 different 32 characters alphanumeric passphrases
redeeman: and different algos
starkmjolk: and probably just tin-foil-hat thoughts
Kano: redeeman: let me access your pc and mod your initrd then i can caputure it ;)
Kano: or
redeeman: Kano: no initrd support
Kano: do you know another funny attact
starkmjolk: but I still prefer serpent, it lost the AES contest because it was too strong, they overdid it :P
Kano: with removed cooled ram?
redeeman: and i modified my grub so it only boots trusted kernels
maligor: redeeman, so if you get arrested, you'll refrain from providing them with the keys?
redeeman: Kano: that is a nice hack, i wonder if it truly works
redeeman: maligor: naturally
Kano: i guess it does
starkmjolk: Kano: I saw the demos of that attack
maligor: redeeman, what if you attach a external drive and boot from that
starkmjolk: it would work just fine, people shouldn't regard DRAM as fully volatile
redeeman: maligor: well.. then they still don't have access to my keys? and i think i'd notice an external drive sticking out of my fileserver, before i enter the keys
maligor: redeeman, oh, yes, but you still have to store the keys somewhere, unless you enter then at boot
redeeman: maligor: i enter them when i assemble the raid
Kano: redeeman: you can currently not boot without an initrd, so where did you put kernel+initrd
maligor: that's pretty paranoid :P
redeeman: Kano: wtf? why cant i boot without initrd?!
redeeman: im doing it on multiple machines
maligor: how do you combat EM snooping?
maligor: is the entire room a faraday cage?
redeeman: maligor: my entire house is in a faraday cage!
redeeman: lol
maligor: and all the windows are mirror windows
Kano: redeeman: what type of encryption? no luks?
redeeman: Kano: normal dm-crypt
redeeman: Kano: i don't have the OS itself encrypted, so i can easily boot without initrd
Kano: ha even more easy to hack
redeeman: like... how?
redeeman: (also its crack)
maligor: Kano, if he inserts the passwords at boot, I don't see any practical way
Kano: maligor: replace the tools
redeeman: you cant replace them
Kano: you can
redeeman: how?
maligor: mm.. yeah... you could replace the kernel
maligor: and then snoop the pws when it boots next time
Kano: when i can boot an external live system i can access your hd
redeeman: you'd need lto spend long time with my fileserver in order to do anything
Kano: replace the file and wait till you login
redeeman: and i verify md5sum of every executable
redeeman: in fact, i only allow execution of md5 verified executables
Kano: the md5sum must be stored on hd
maligor: md5sum isn't secure
redeeman: no, externally
redeeman: maligor: it's secure enough
Kano: well md5 could be cracked if needed
redeeman: i doubt VERY much that kano can craft a custom exe that does what he wants, and have it match my prerecorded md5
redeeman: if he can, i salute him
cxo: how do you decode md5?
redeeman: and welcome him to my fileserver :D
Kano: md5 is a hash
maligor: cxo, decoding hashes doesn't make much sense
redeeman: one cannot decode, one can only really bruteforce
redeeman: and by the time that's done, i don't care about the data anymore
cxo: maligor, b=hash(a), a=decode(b)
Kano: the trick is to create other files with the same hash with user defined data
maligor: yeah, you'd have to modify the binary and then start padding it with extra data to make it match
maligor: but it's possible
cxo: my point is just that, you cannot crack md5
maligor: cxo, you know what a hash is, yes?
redeeman: but it's completely impractical
starkmjolk: in a normal system you have much easier exploits than actually matching the hash :)
redeeman: it would never suceed in reality
maligor: yeah, you could also add a ps2 or usb recorder dongle
maligor: unless you check for those too everytime :P
redeeman: that wouldn't stop me
maligor: or even modify the keyboard
redeeman: i attach keyboard on a boot-basis
starkmjolk: humans use the system, the system can be exploited. not harder than that
Kano: redeeman: but when do you check md5sum? when it was executed before you check you have got already lost
redeeman: Kano: i have kindof hacked my kernel alot :P
maligor: there's also another option of just replacing grub and kernel both, and make them seem like they're the old still
maligor: since you can't trust grub
Kano: then we need to replace the kernel too ;)
Kano: with physical access no problem
redeeman: yeah but my grub won't boot that
maligor: what you need is TPM enabled grub :P
Kano: do you think reinstalling grub is a problem
redeeman: well.. i would notice
maligor: not nessesarily
redeeman: unless you have time to make other modifications i also made
redeeman: to your grub
Kano: you can fake any outputs
redeeman: you would need long physical access to my server
redeeman: to do it
Kano: grub is not encrypted, your system is not encrypted
Kano: so what to do
maligor: so.. when are you going to a vacation? ;)
maligor: s/to/on/
Kano: -> copy everything readable on another hd
Kano: come back when you are done
redeeman: Kano: what if i change those things regularly?
Kano: i would really suggest to encrypt everything
redeeman: doesent matter
Kano: maybe build the kernel+initrd in flash roms
maligor: you could also add a powerloss data collector
Kano: ;)
redeeman: my protection is against theft only really
maligor: assuming you keep the server running
maligor: it'd tell you it's been compromised
redeeman: yeah i already have
redeeman: monitoring on it
maligor: and load monitor
Kano: redeeman: bascially every one with root access could seek the memory for the keys
maligor: What do you store on it? The American National Secrets? :P
redeeman: maligor: my family photos :P
Kano: so watch out for root exploits if you give somebody user access
redeeman: Kano: only I have user access
redeeman: and grsec makes sure the services are not misbehaving
maligor: I guess you have checks against bruteforce pw attacks too ;)
redeeman: i have 2sec wait time between login attempts
redeeman: i think bruteforcing is out of the question :P
maligor: what about someone installing a video camera in the room?-)
Kano: a much simpler attack now
Kano: attach a hardware keylogger ;)
Kano: do you use wireless keyboards?
redeeman: no i don't
maligor: Kano, he did say he attaches the keyboard on login basis :P
Kano: well i think it is possible to add a keylogger inside a keyboard
redeeman: well.. it probably is
maligor: I guess you could add a hardware keylogger inside the compuer too
Kano: sure
redeeman: but these things arent practical
redeeman: i'd notice
Kano: a modified keyboard you will not notice
redeeman: but when will you modify it?
maligor: just buy an identical keyboard
Kano: you buy the same keyboard
redeeman: then i'd notice it not being identical
Kano: put some dust on it and you will not see any diff*g*
maligor: mmm.. disposable usb keyboards! the solution!
redeeman: but actually
maligor: made out of paper
redeeman: i am currently developing a piece of hardware
maligor: you could burn them after use, heh
redeeman: which will counter the "replace my keyboard" thing
Kano: do you know what the easiest way is to get the root pw?
starkmjolk: Kano: you ask :)
redeeman: lol
Kano: exactly
redeeman: fortunately in denmark the court cannot do anything
redeeman: i can just claim i do not remember passwords
redeeman: and that the only copy is on a broken cd
redeeman: they will have to proove im lying
maligor: a serious man cutting your fingers off might have other options
maligor: but that actually requires someone knows something is there
redeeman: maligor: and such a man, im not trying to hide anything from
Kano: redeeman: wait when there is a way to extract the content of death brains ;)
redeeman: at that time i shall adjust my handling of keys differently
maligor: Kano, that'd mean practical neural implants
Kano: do you remember johnny mnemonic?
maligor: you could just make your own implants commit complete suicide on death
Kano: or lawnmower man ;)
Kano: store yourself in the net
Kano: redeeman: http://www.keyspyer.de/
Kano: i hope you watch out for dongles ;)
redeeman: i would definetly notice that thing
Kano: it cant be hard to add that internally
redeeman: but you need to get my keyboard
redeeman: a similar will soon not work
Kano: airbush art or what *g*
redeeman: ~2 weeks ago i started making avr code using the varusb lib, to do usbhid
redeeman: so soon i will attach inside my usb keyboards
redeeman: a microcontroller which will identify it
Kano: on the same site you see the internal modules too
redeeman: and so if you simply replaced my keyboard, you wouldn't notice
Kano: the usb id will not change
redeeman: no but if you merely replaced my keyboard my ID would not be there
Kano: do you know how many cabels usb has got
redeeman: what do you mean?
redeeman: you mean wires?
Kano: very few, only 4. should not be hard to add small device inside keyboard within maybe 10 min
redeeman: my keyboard isn't screwed together, it's "clipsed"
redeeman: also
redeeman: my microcontroller will record power loss
redeeman: and thus detect a hack :)
Kano: let me test it ;)
redeeman: test what?
redeeman: you wanna modify my keyboard?
Kano: i would suggest to use a camera monitoring your system too
redeeman: my data isn't really secret
maligor: hmm.. they've actually made a TPM enabled GRUB
Kano: a Q45 board or Q35 has got a TPM usually
maligor: my board only has a header
maligor: haven't seen the modules for sale anywhere tho
Kano: so you own an asus board?
maligor: yeah
Kano: 10 euro for that thing
Kano: http://www.alternate.de/html/product/Mainboards_Zubehoer/Asus/TPM_Modul_Vista/193990/?articleId=193990
maligor: hmm.. maybe I should get one, might be fun to play with
Kano: and even cheaper when you search for asus tpm
redeeman: does gigabyte X48 board have it?
maligor: dunno, check the manual?
Kano: redeeman: it might have got a header to add a module
maligor: it's marked as TPM header on mine
redeeman: i believe i have that aswell
Kano: if you really need that its seems better when it is a module instead of built-in as you can take it to your next board
redeeman: how do they work? they have a unique key in them or?
maligor: Kano, I don't think they can be reused like that
Kano: well you can add your keys
Kano: maligor: why not?
maligor: you'd have to reset it to use it on another board
Kano: maligor: did you try?
maligor: no, but for security reasons it might make sense
maligor: redeeman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module
Kano: maligor: i dont see the added security by that
cxo: http://www.fedoraforum.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=4469
maligor: http://trousers.sourceforge.net/grub.html
Kano: maligor: when you store passwords you can use a master pass
maligor: I imagine you could use it to encrypt and verify your bootloader
maligor: dunno if anything supports that tho
Kano: i doubt you can encrypt the bootloader, but you can use it to store the keys for bitlocker for example
Kano: you can verify it of course
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus: Hi
maligor: well, I think you can use it to measure the MBR bootloader, and verify it
uncle_fungus: hi michaellarabel
Kano: maligor: i dont think that there is a bios which would allow encrypted bootloaders
michaellarabel: I created a trondheim-12 branch in git for PTS 1.2 development work... Though I don't know if it's working on the git server yet. Anyways, I got the sensor monitoring all pulled out into a module. I then also have the threading support almost working, for polling sensors every X seconds during a test.
maligor: Kano, I meant a small secure loader for the bootloader perhapsp :P
maligor: Kano, dunno really tho, never looked that much into TPM
Kano: maligor: well it seems possible to write that on your own
Kano: it is not hard to modifiy a bios and add custom code
maligor: since it's meant to allow trust, I would imagine such a setup should be possible
Kano: do you know that bios mod that allows you to use the ata passwords?
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: great! I'll take a look at it as soon as I can pull it from phorogit
Kano: http://www.fitzenreiter.de/ata/ata_eng.htm
maligor: ata passwords aren't very secure
Kano: i added that once, but then i got bored entering em
maligor: heh
maligor: you can just switch the electronics on the drive
Kano: nope
Kano: i think you have to do something else as it is most likely stored on the hd itself
maligor: why would it be stored on the hd
Kano: but a hd recovery firm would have got no trouble with that i guess
Kano: could be only one sector to clean or so
Kano: i would not add flash storage for that
Kano: on the electronic as that would be really too simple
maligor: depends on what they want to achieve with it
Kano: replacing electronics takes only a few min
Kano: did that to recover one maxtor drive
maligor: yep, and putting it on flash on the controller is by far the cheapest option
Kano: nope i guess they use a spare sector on drive, would be more logical
maligor: well, they probably have flash on them anyway
maligor: identification and settings
maligor: and maybe quirks
redeeman: Kano: ping
Kano: yes?
redeeman: remember i talked about my amd64 where newer nvidia xv drivers crash when using opengl and xv at same time?
cxo: that was an ancient bug
cxo: there was also some funky xorg Option for it
redeeman: yeah right... existing up to and including the latest version
cxo: you need an option in xorg.conf
redeeman: it came in the 9xxx drivers
redeeman: i see nothing mentioned in nvidias readme
redeeman: http://redeeman.kaspersandberg.com:8001/xv_nvidia.png
cxo: i know its not there
cxo: i'll look it up for you
redeeman: that's how xv comes to look 50/50 when you start opengl while xv runs
redeeman: and if one doesent stop it inside of ~10seconds
redeeman: it's hardlock
redeeman: cxo: so nvidia have made a crappy hardlock bug, and a workaround is known, yet they are just silent?
redeeman: wtf is wrong with those morons
redeeman: they should be put in prison for such shit
Kano: hmm you ran glxgears while doing xv?
redeeman: Kano: nah, i don't remember what i did, i took the screenshot a few days ago
redeeman: but any opengl app can do it
Kano: well will check
cxo: redeeman, search in the readme for it, i'm sure its mentioned in an appendix
redeeman: this appears to be a 6xxx/7xxx specific thing
redeeman: cxo: it wasnt last time i checked
cxo: its an amalgamation of "enable gl with xv"
cxo: i needed it for the longest time...
Kano: redeeman: no corruptions with 177.13 + mplayer -vo xv + running glxgears on nv6200
redeeman: Kano: well.. it happens here, haven't tried 177.13 though
redeeman: but i seriously doubt they fixed it
Kano: but i am using pure 32 bit
redeeman: this is pure 64bit
cxo: yes it was an issue with x11 6.9
cxo: thats why i needed it
redeeman: cxo: that's what i use
redeeman: is there a workaround?
cxo: its just an option you throw into your display or driver section in xorg.conf
redeeman: well.. i cant find it, even in the appendix
cxo: cant remember what it was....looking
redeeman: fucking moron nvidia
redeeman: they should just god dammit break such stuff
redeeman: i really feel there should be some severe punishment on companies doing that
redeeman: $1bn fine
redeeman: for each PERSON having the problem
cxo: i dont know if this is related, Option "AllowGLXWithComposite" "boolean"
redeeman: i don't have that option
redeeman: plus i don't have compositing enabled
redeeman: oh wait, i do have compositing enabled in xorg
redeeman: but i don't use any compositing window manager
cxo: throw it in, doesnt hurt
cxo: i guess you want "true" there
redeeman: im just gonna disable the composite extension, i don't use it anyway
Kano: wireless keyboards are really fun ;)
Kano: redeeman: of course i use that meantioned options in nvidia config
cxo: yes especially when you need to change battery every 2 months
Kano: yes needed to replace em now
redeeman: cxo: you cant find any links for the specific workaround for 6.9?
cxo: i googled a bit, nothing came up, i'm at the office, i could probably look more when i'm at home
Sam1337: I just read that lgp is implementing drm into future games.
maligor: linux doesn't make a very good drmed platform
Exopaladin: I'm not sure how you could sanely implement it really
maligor: you could do what steam does
Exopaladin: even that has been broken though
maligor: cdrom checks are what might be a bit useless, and possibly hard to do
maligor: since you'd probably require the installation of a kernel driver
Sam1337: No thanks.
maligor: or maybe rw perms to cdrom device would be enough
Exopaladin: anything involving a kernel blob would be fairly stupid, they'd have to keep updating it when the kernel changes if people want to continue playing
Sam1337: I wouldn't install a binary kernel blob on my system.
Sam1337: Unless I really had to.
maligor: I think the latest windows copy protections use kernel drivers
maligor: like securom
maligor: but not entirely sure
Exopaladin: is UUID used on all filesystems? could try using some sort of online verification system using that (login, submit the UUID of the partition the game will be running on, then have the game check against the site on startup)
Sam1337: I don't think anybody here uses Windows though.
maligor: Exopaladin, heh, just easier to use unique cdrom keys
Exopaladin: mmh
Kano: Exopaladin: you can easyly change uuids
Kano: the only way to go are online based verify systems
Exopaladin: fair enough, wasn't sure if they were based partly on drive serial or something
maligor: lgp should move to online distribution anyway
maligor: small volumes drive up price unnessesarily
Kano: does anybody see a reason for copy protecting single player games online?
cxo: where there is drm, there is a hacker, so says cxo
cxo: and hexeditors, and common sense, and hackerish'ness
Kano: well debuggers are used then
Kano: for a single player game no protection is really possible
Kano: for multiplayer you can check for unique ids and block too many users with the same id
Sam1337: I shared my ut2004 key with a friend who wanted to try the game.
Sam1337: I hope his windoze machine doesn't get haxx3d and my key stolen and used by lots of people and banned.
maligor: Kano, disassemblers you mean
Kano: well disassembling is static
maligor: advanced disassemblers have inbuilt debuggers
Kano: well maybe the other way around
maligor: no, not really :P
maligor: debuggers themselves are rather built for use when you have sources
cxo: Sam1337, your key is a hoe
maligor: I made a softfiregl patch on linux with objdump tho
maligor: felt a bit silly since I don't have software that gain anything from it, but it was a learning experience
cxo: man, i's been hacking binary blobs since before binary...
Kano: well i used objdump for getting rid of the xorg checks of fglrx
maligor: heh
maligor: it's interesting how the firegl mode is done by using a single bit
Kano: did not look for that issue
maligor: makes it feel a bit silly what with firegl cards costing 4-6x the consumer model
cxo: my sister has a quadro
Kano: any speed increase with your hack?
maligor: yes.
Kano: for which apps?
maligor: specviewperf, I don't have any of the targetted 'pro' apps
cxo: its good with really wide renders, like 6k x 4k pixels, but its slow for games
maligor: blender gained absolutely nothing from it
Kano: well my fglrx card is slow, no need to "tune" it ;)
maligor: also a interesting side effect was that glxgears lost half it's framerate ;)
Kano: i put it only in a system when i want to test new ati drivers
cxo: anything with the word "fire" in its name shouldnt be allowed to be slow
cxo: if it is, the marketing dude needs to be sacked
maligor: cxo, well, the firegl cards are friggen fast
cxo: man i want a 4870!
cxo: so bad right now
maligor: they're the same cards as the consumer ones except for one bit too
maligor: probably set in the bios
cxo: but i know i'm gonna be frustrated with the drivers and wish i bought an nvidia
maligor: and some differences in hardware setups
cxo: but the card just looks too good, as compared to that black brick 280gtx
maligor: cxo, they're not too bad
cxo: what are they gonna call the next nvidia, 380gtxlmnop
maligor: the video overlay sync issue is still a bit annoying tho
cxo: open source or fglrx?
maligor: fglrx
maligor: I have a hd 3870
cxo: the ati website doesnt even list a driver for 4xxx series
cxo: not even on windows
maligor: the fglrx driver has had pci ids for RV770 for a while
maligor: 8.5 and 8.6 atleast have it
Kano: it still have
Sam1337: use the open source driver
Kano: just on 8-6 some clever guy remove the comments from the header
cxo: they should just out source the drivers
cxo: they cant write drivers, and they've proved it quite thoroughly now
maligor: can't do that because of DRM and FireGL
maligor: cxo, how so?
cxo: out-source, as in, get some else to write the drivers
cxo: maligor, ati drivers never worked for me, windows or linux
cxo: i always had to do some magic to install it
maligor: as I said, they work fine for me
cxo: hit and miss
Sam1337: ati drivers worked for me on windoze
maligor: I play savage 2 and etqw on it
cxo: yeah, they work if you can get them installed
maligor: the installer's better than nvidia's if you use one of the big distroes
maligor: it'll actually generate packagemanager packages
Sam1337: Is Debian Etch one of the big distros?
Kano: well for etch you can use my script to autoinstall fglrx
Sam1337: Great all I need to do now is buy an ati graphics card again.
cxo: haha
cxo: you own an ati card maligor ?
vadi2: maligor: come join s2
Exopaladin: I keep considering buying savage 2
vadi2: it'
vadi2: 's awesome
cxo: i have the same problem vadi2
cxo: the dam ' key
vadi2: Yeah, but my biggest beef with this keyboard is that the f keys aren't separated. though I sometimes hit enter instead of ' too.
maligor: vadi2, channel s2 or game s2? :P
maligor: cxo, yes
maligor: hd 3870 as I said
vadi2: game s2
vadi2: and my batteries in the mouse just died
vadi2: argh
maligor: that's why I use with cord mice
maligor: vadi2, mm.. what was your nick in s2
vadi2: vadi
vadi2: and I'm on a laptop <3 my nano logitech mouse
cxo: maligor, have you own nvidia cards?
cxo: ^owned
maligor: yes
maligor: also for informational purpose, I've used linux for ~10 years
cxo: what was your latest nvidia card?
maligor: 8600
cxo: is there a big difference to the 3870?
maligor: performance wise?
cxo: well overall, image quality, and performance
maligor: I can play games now at 1680x1050
Kano: i would go for 9800 gtx+
cxo: vaporware
maligor: I'd go for 4870
cxo: i'm think 4870 too
maligor: mostly because I like amd's new strategy
cxo: depending on who is the more civil, 280gtx or 4870
maligor: and the driver development has picked up speed now
maligor: it does have it's issues tho
Kano: the strategy is nice for lowend cards
cxo: i'd go with whichever card is quieter and uses less power
cxo: perf is relatively the same
Exopaladin: I'll go with whichever performs better under linux and is sanely priced when I build my new PC in september
Kano: but not possible to replace the binary drivers if you want to play games which require real gfx power
maligor: Exopaladin, and yeh, s2 is well worth the price
maligor: quite cheap now too because of the dollar
Exopaladin: yeah, I'll probably buy it when I have money in a couple of weeks
cxo: 9800gtx is $199 on tiger
m-c__: So, what exactly is real-gfx-power? I am playing games right now without even DRI or 3D features of the RadeonHD ! :-D
Exopaladin: wow, that's annoying.. 9800 GTX here is £180 :P
Kano: well look for 8800 gts with 512 mb
Kano: thats the same chip
Kano: just some features are not unlocked with the win driver
m-c__: I am just saying, it's relative what people want to do for games. Not everyone is going to tune every part of their computer for the next release of UnrealQuakeCrysis III
cxo: Exopaladin, you guys get topgear, we're more than even
Exopaladin: I have an 8800GT I'm happy with anyway, won't be buying anything else until I build my new PC
Kano: well a 9800gtx is no real upgrade from 8800 gt
Exopaladin: I don't consider paying double for some PC components being worth getting a show that you can download via bitorrent within an hour of it airing :P
cxo: doesnt matter
cxo: misses british tele
cxo: i grew up watching BBC 1,2 and 3, thats all we got where i lived
Exopaladin: I'd gladly swap Top Gear for paying half price on electrical goods and most stuff in general
vadi2: maligor: you're on a full server :(
Exopaladin: (I do actually like Top Gear, I just hate being ripped off)
cxo: how much would it cost to ship it from the U.S?
Exopaladin: not much, the main problem is if you get hit for customs + VAT + if you have to return it :P
maligor: vadi2, so were you :P
vadi2: maligor: I'm not on one now!
vadi2: there's also some chick voice now
vadi2: I think she says if you go on a killing spree, but it's hard to tell
vadi2: oi, I just sucked as a malpha so bad
maligor: what a weird game that was, the enemy got malphas first, they must've had 5 of them around before we got ours, still, victory :P
vadi2: pew pew, finally got my first maliken
vadi2: killed 4 peeps with the spinning :)
vadi2: come join our game. it's nuts
cxo: what game are you playing?
vadi2: savage 2
vadi2: what server don't know
maligor: vadi2, have to head off to sleep
m-c: wow - I put a drop of oil on one of my desktop computer fans. what a big difference - can't believe I lived with that noise for so long! :-D
m-c: this was helpful ... http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,2135514-3,00.htm?r=1
starkmjolk: m-c: would that be valid for both ball-bearing and the other kind that I don't know the english word for? :D
m-c: The link I provided above was for a "sleeve" bearing
starkmjolk: ah, that would be the other kind, "glidlagrad fläkt" in swedish :)
m-c: I suspect a drop of heavy oil or grease would work for ball bearings, too.
starkmjolk: yeah, I think it should but I might just aswell ruin 'em :)
m-c: I have this bad feeling I put the fan in backward
m-c: Ah - no, it's right. Hard to tell which way the air is blowing, with all the fans in there
starkmjolk: :)
m-c: Do you think the open source AMD drivers will be of any limitation to openGL libraries?
starkmjolk: with what gfx?
m-c: I am chatting with one of the developers of savage 2 who wonders if the drivers will ever fully support openGL 2 or the upcoming openGL 3 specifications. I thought openGL libraries were handled by higher-level applications than the drivers
redeeman: doesent mesa already support opengl2?
m-c: that's what I was thinking - that mesa was fairly independent of the drivers
redeeman: yeah with the current architecture it pretty much is
redeeman: dri/drm then adds hardware acceleration for mesa
redeeman: ofcourse provided the hardware actually supports it
redeeman: with gallium3d, even hardware not supporting new features, should get support in the form of a fallback software renderer
m-c: well - things should get clearer, moving forward, as these libraries have more insight into the open drivers and open specifications
m-c: And, plus, the savage 2 programmers care about the libraries, and not so much the drivers, so their perspective is skewed
cxo: heh nvidia stock dropped 16%. after ati released the 48xx
cxo: and ati's went up 3.2%
cxo: (AMD)
cxo: looks like the nvidia fan boys are getting scurrrrrrrred
michaellarabel: cxo: Umm I don't see it down 16%, even in after-hour trading....
cxo: not over night man
cxo: that would have really sucked
michaellarabel: No, what day you talking about? Thursday it opened at $20 a share and is now just down to $19.35... not 16%
cxo: http://channel.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=13961
cxo: thats where i read it
michaellarabel: Eh... 22-day change.
cxo: wats that mean?
vadi2: it means over the source of 22 days
vadi2: *course
cxo: yo
starkmjolk: lo
cxo: wats goin' on
starkmjolk: phone atm, then sleep
cxo: wikid
vadi2: lol
starkmjolk: now first phase is over :)
cxo: remember to keep your windows closed, and stop the bugs from coming in
cxo: heh firefox just gave me a warning about phoronix.com
cxo: "Web Site Identity Not Verified"
vadi2: I got nothing against LGP's validation thing except it looks fugly
vadi2: Couldn't they at least do it in GTK 2 with some stock icons?
vadi2: and does it integrate with they keyring thing?
vadi2: *the
redeeman: keyring is a gnome thing
vadi2: and?
vadi2: kde has their kwallet or something
redeeman: that would be a bad dependency
vadi2: oh, noes. using existing functionality is baaad.
redeeman: no
redeeman: but requiring gnome would be bad
redeeman: having it optional, sure, im all for it
vadi2: same thing.
redeeman: no it's not the same
cxo: god i hate fukin linux
cxo: when it crashes, it really crashes
redeeman: yeah right
redeeman: lsmod | grep -i nvidia
redeeman: that ought to tell you whose fault it is
vadi2: (it also sends all your passwords to them too)
Deanjo: You know if publication costs are so high, then why don't they do something smart like make the binary downloadable and use the existing resource files on the windows version @ a reduced cost.
cxo: this was thunderbird's fault,
redeeman: or have the entire distribution happening via a torrent-like system?
cxo: i was sending 2 emails, using 2 separate exchange accounts
redeeman: cxo: thunderbird crashes your entire system?
Deanjo: Yup, pay for your key,
cxo: yeah
redeeman: and how would thunderbird be able to achieve this?
cxo: and i got this message "Copy Error"
cxo: and it just sat there for a second or two, and then froze
redeeman: yeah ill bet it's nvidias fault if you have it loaded
redeeman: it always is
Deanjo: riiiiiiiiiiiight
cxo: i dont know, shm? sems etc...
redeeman: hell, even on winblows nvidia is responsible for nearly half of ALL crashes
redeeman: on linux the scores are alot higher
cxo: thats actually true about windows at least
Deanjo: On vista
cxo: i think even microsoft had said something about that
redeeman: and XP aswell
Deanjo: No that was only on Vista
redeeman: that SPECIFIC stat was
redeeman: it said nothing about xp
redeeman: but there have been others
redeeman: for instance
redeeman: i saw a relatively big study a few years ago
redeeman: (~2005)
redeeman: and ~99% of linux crashes were nvidia
Deanjo: uhhuh
Deanjo: link
redeeman: linux itself is pretty damn fucking stable
Deanjo: link
redeeman: nvidia is a piece of crap garbage
cxo: not like it used to be
Deanjo: link
redeeman: Deanjo: i said 2005
Deanjo: Ya so?
redeeman: do you think i remember the link now?
cxo: the more people use it, the more crazy shit they put into the kernel, the more retarded (but must have) gui programs, just adds up
redeeman: cxo: when i say crashes, i don't mean random userspace crashes
redeeman: i mean kernel crashes
Deanjo: Hey man I just pulled up torvalds rant about the kernel devs wanting to ban blobs from 2006
redeeman: Deanjo: yeah that's easy to find
cxo: but most of those "userspace" crashes bring the entire machine down
Deanjo: So if it was that big of a deal it should be easier to find too
redeeman: cxo: no
cxo: man, my machine just went down
redeeman: cxo: if you run thunderbird as normal user it shouldn't be able to crash the system
redeeman: if it can, it's almost certainly because of xorg
redeeman: which in turn is then nvidia
cxo: normal user?
redeeman: as, aka not root
cxo: i'm not root
m-c: Deanjo: They did not just want to ban blobs.... they have no blobs
redeeman: then how exactly would it crash the system?
cxo: i dont know? locks, sems, shms etc...
redeeman: unless if it's xorg (which which case nvidia is a really really big chance)
redeeman: cxo: which nvidia has done god only knows with
Deanjo: They wanted to change the kernel to make trying to use a blob impossible m-c
cxo: yeah man, but i wasnt doing anything else
redeeman: yeah but you still had nvidia loaded
redeeman: why do you think the kernel has a "tainted" flag?
cxo: thats a bit naive
redeeman: no it's not
cxo: for the license
redeeman: nvidia does shitloads of modifications
cxo: i got "Copy Error" and gone
cxo: i'm presuming this is the copy from Drafts to Sent, on the remote imap folder
redeeman: cxo: believe me, the nvidia blob does VERY bad things
redeeman: for instance
redeeman: a week ago
redeeman: i had my kernel oops a few times
redeeman: in the vfs/xfs driver
redeeman: and me and a friend investigated
redeeman: turns out it's nvidia driver that causes it
redeeman: which ofcourse we cannot debug
Deanjo: OK show me the logs
cxo: how did you trace it?
Deanjo: I'm calling bullshit
cxo: me too
redeeman: cxo: by getting it ~5 times in a row on nvidia, then rebooting without nvidia, then not getting, then loading nvidia, and getting
redeeman: Deanjo: you can have the kernel message
Deanjo: Give me the logs
cxo: i dont know, seems like it could be anything
redeeman: yeah which doesent happen when nvidia is gone
redeeman: http://rafb.net/p/7oSAfz47.html
redeeman: now usually one wouldn't think this would have anything to do with nvidia
Deanjo: OH ok so it can't be what so ever a shitty PCI-E implementation which chipsets have well documented errata about?
redeeman: well.. what about the other pcie pheripherals then?
redeeman: why don't they cause problems?
cxo: heh, what kernel are you running?
redeeman: it says, 2.6.25
cxo: yeah i saw, is that just vanilla?
redeeman: yes
Deanjo: Dude, it's been well documented on MANY devices that causes that are blamed on devices have been because of shitty chipset errata
redeeman: Deanjo: frankly i don't care what it is, but reality is, that as soon as someone modprobes the god damn nvidia module is loaded, bad stuff happens
cxo: thats a memory error
redeeman: cxo: memory error exactly how?
Deanjo: look at ANY chipset white paper and that comes obvious
Deanjo: It's not uncommon for one device to expose a flaw in another
redeeman: yeah well in the case of nvidia, chances are it's nvidias fault
Deanjo: you haven't provided ANY proof
redeeman: no because unfortunately one cannot take nvidia to criminal court over this
Deanjo: if every thing was as stable as you claim there would not be 500+ kernel fixes in each release
cxo: it looks like the machine couldnt handle a page request, and instead of just segfaulting, it tried to lookup the page again
cxo: that can be caused by anything
redeeman: Deanjo: the vast majority is fixes to newly broken stuff
Deanjo: bullshit
cxo: higher chance its from fuse than nvidia
redeeman: Deanjo: that's a FACT
Deanjo: look at change logs, most of that stuff has been there for years
redeeman: cxo: lol yeah, it also happens without fuse
Deanjo: ffs there are still changes made on a daily basis to ISA devices
redeeman: well.. reality is, that stuff is alot more stable without the nvidia blob, than with it
redeeman: you don't have to be some sort of professor to make the connection
Deanjo: Well reality is, I find the EXACT opposite
redeeman: then we have 1 of 2 cases going on here
redeeman: 1: you are not telling the truth
redeeman: 2: you are hitting an extremely fortunate combination of systems
Deanjo: Or 3 your just an extremely isolated case
redeeman: i am far from the only one having issues
Deanjo: Your far from being the majority
redeeman: the nvidia drivers are notorious for being unstable
Deanjo: so are ATI's?
redeeman: yes
Deanjo: So are many of the DRI drivers
redeeman: the difference being
redeeman: that most of the stuff works on nvidia
redeeman: while being unstable
redeeman: on fglrx stuff tends to not work at all
redeeman: lol
cxo: are you running an rt patch?
cxo: wait you said vanilla....
cxo: something from userspace called stat and mmap, and it died when it tried to pass the page in
redeeman: well.. actually, i probably have 1 minor patch
cxo: that definitely not the nvidia driver
redeeman: to add a device id to an alsa driver
redeeman: but that was accepted upstream
redeeman: and is extremely unlikely to cause this :P
cxo: it might be coming from an app that uses the nvidia driver
cxo: but not from the driver itself
cxo: its a syscall from libc
cxo: the kernel doesnt map memory like that for kthreads
cxo: i'm just going to lookup some of these symbols....1 sec
cxo: yup, as i thought, its coming from a userspace app
redeeman: it can be provoked by just opening konqueror/gimp alot of times
redeeman: and it doesent happen without nvidia module loaded
redeeman: oh also i believe it was fixed in the latest 2 driver releases
cxo: yes, i know, its nothing to do with the nvidia driver
cxo: so what were you goin' on about earlier?
redeeman: what do you mean?
cxo: you said "
redeeman: yes
cxo: any large file stat would cause that error
redeeman: then why the hell does the same operation only cause such a "large file stat" when the nvidia driver is there?
cxo: which version kernel did you say fixed it?
redeeman: no kernel upgrade, just changing to the latest nvidia driver made it go away again
cxo: i'm pretty sure its the lock in the xfs driver
redeeman: well.. either way, if i had not had the nvidia driver, i'd have NEVER seen that
cxo: man, all dogs have 4 legs, but it doesnt mean all 4 legged animals are dogs
cxo: you're being a n00b, by saying NVIDIA caused it, nvidia caused it, a 100 times
redeeman: yeah okay, so maybe ONE bug isn't directly nvidias fault
redeeman: then we can go to the next problem
redeeman: message like these:
redeeman: NVRM: Xid (0001:00): 12, COCOD 00000003 beef3901 00000039 00001718 00000000
redeeman: NVRM: Xid (0001:00): 30, L1 -> L0
redeeman: followed by a ~1-10 minute lockup
cxo: the driver is shit, we know that, but it doesnt cause xfs file lockups
redeeman: nvidias official position is that that particular error message, CANNOT happen
cxo: thats also bs, because the watchdog would have kicked it out of memory after 30s
redeeman: well.. i know for a fact it's more tahn 1 minute
redeeman: because i stayed with it for ~1 min
redeeman: then went away for ~8-9 minutes
redeeman: and it was not locked anymore
cxo: i hope this is not your personal pc, these sort of things can get time consuming
redeeman: (i only got that message on 6600gt)
redeeman: however, it does appear to be a fault on EVERY 6600gt i have seen
redeeman: when i first got that message
redeeman: i was told it was due to broken card
redeeman: so i bought a new one, from a different manufacturer
redeeman: same issue
redeeman: (funnily enough it came in an nvidia driver update :P)
redeeman: and then a few months later i talked to a guy on irc that had the same issue
cxo: michaellarabel, "...the GeForce 9800GTX is dropping in price and captivating the interest of a different segment of users."
cxo: the poor linux users?
cxo: haha
redeeman: i'd rather give two times the cost of a 9800gtx, for a pcie X4500 from intel
cxo: x4500?
redeeman: yes GMA X4500
cxo: firegl?
cxo: the intel chip?
redeeman: unfortunately intel doesent sell it outside of their northbridges :(
redeeman: and im afraid the bribe required to have them produce ONE such card would be more than i can pay
Brains: /clear/win 3
cxo: heh? this isnt sed you know
Brains: cxo: No, but my client is irssi and I sometimes miss/forget the enter key...
cxo: were are my benchmarks of the 4870 and gtx280
cxo: stamps his feet
cxo: toms is being some retarded review on a $4k gaming machine
cxo: s/being/doing
Brains: You don't have $4k to drop on a gaming machine? Tsk tsk...
Brains: must stop associating with the riffraff.
Deanjo: I drop that on my firewall :P
cxo: $4k on a gaming computer, is like spending $500k on a sports car
cxo: carrera or mercialago
cxo: its not a hard fukin decision
Deanjo: I mean doesn't everybody use a 8-way opteron for smoothwall? :P
cxo: yet we need a 10 page review on it
redeeman: i do plan on using an E8400 on a fileserver :D
redeeman: and i have been known to use E4500 on a simple NAT'er
redeeman: :>
Deanjo: thinks they can try to pry his Sun V20 away from his cold lifeless hands
Brains: can't remember the time before last that he even spent $400... (The last time was on his N810.)
m-c: What's wrong with the option to get a $4k rig? I am sure there are some people who toil away and want the best gaming rig money can buy. And there sure are people willing to sell it. ;-)
m-c: Plus, today's $4k rig is next year's $500 rig.
cxo: thats my point
cxo: it depreciates faster then cars do
m-c: I'm interested in next year's $500 rig, so I'll read it. ;)
Deanjo: You can do alot for a $1000 nowdays
m-c: Now, if he could tell me what next year's $4k rig would be, then it'd be interesting!! ha ha... Yeah, $1000 would buy you a spectacular machine if you shopped the parts yourself.
Brains: You can do a lot with $500 these days. Pretty amusing how far we've come.
m-c: Very amazing. /me agrees.
cxo: especially with cards like the 4870 in the sub $200
Deanjo: recalls selling 8088's for 3k
m-c: Was not too many years ago people said that a computer is out of date as soon as you take it out of the box. Today, with Linux at least, $1000 will get you a computer that'd last 20 years
cxo: remembers buying Pentium 75 for $2k
Deanjo: and that was was with no monitor, printer or even harddrive
cxo: 8088 was dangerous chip man, it had onboard cache!
Deanjo: Meh, swapped mine for a NEC v20 Chip
m-c: cxo: I had a $2k 386/sx ;)
Brains: m-c: I suppose that depends on what you mean by out of date... It wasn't all that long ago that I retired my Pentium from duty.
cxo: 4 way _set_ associate cache
Deanjo: That sucker could do 8 Mhz
cxo: was the shizzo
cxo: heh mine was 5.7mhz
Deanjo: I replaced my crystal :P
redeeman: i have an amiga 1200
redeeman: and then i got a blizzard 12/30 50mhz card
redeeman: that wtfpwned
redeeman: and 32mb ram, lol
redeeman: it was insane
m-c: Brains: I am talking about keeping up with modern desktop tasks, nothing too extreme, with everything that is expected from a modern computer (video, internet, office, for today)
Deanjo: lol I had a 286 upgrade card for the old XT
Deanjo: It added, DMA SUPPORT!!!!
Deanjo: rox out to listening to music on his Covox Speech Thing
m-c: You want to do ray-trace and HD video editing? They probably do not yet have a computer that is going to be sufficient for you. But, regular joes are just watching video on youtube these days.
Deanjo: You can watch video nowdays?
Deanjo: OMG!
m-c: And they are buying Windows Vista to do it
Deanjo: lol, morons
Deanjo: HD delivered by hard media is gonna die a quick death
Deanjo: It's all about using the "TUBES" nowdays
m-c: Gosh, I hope so. Let's get rid of optical discs.
Deanjo: iptv baby!!!
m-c: I like NetFlix little streaming film device they released (for Linux, so they say). That seems like the future of video entertainment.
Deanjo: You don't think ISP's are going to 100mbit speeds to surf the web do ya? :P
Deanjo: " I need faster email dammit!!!!"
m-c: Yeah, but I hope we can bit-torrent the whole thing and encrypt everything.
Deanjo: Where there is a will there is a way :P
m-c: I should set up a business like that - - -
m-c: Cheap yearly subscription, and every week there is a new full-length movie to download via bit-torrent
Deanjo: I can even see a day where websites are served using a p2p like delivery
m-c: Keeps bandwidth required down, and keeps the legal use of bittorrent up.
Deanjo: distributed delivery is the future.
m-c: Maybe
cxo: if i can get a 280gtx for < $350 i'm buying one
cxo: its so friggin' fast
Deanjo: It has to be, it's cheaper in the long run m-c
m-c: Or maybe the ISP has to inspect every packet, just in case.
m-c: They have to protect the children and terrorists from porn.
Deanjo: Ya but allow softporn on the tv lol
m-c: Or the children porn from terrorists. Or something.
m-c: And if every single one of your packets are not opened up and inspected, the porn-loving children terrorists win.
Deanjo: I thought it was to protect the "tubes" from man-juice
m-c: And in that case, distributed delivery will never happen
Deanjo: Less calls to FOIS-rotor-rooter that way
m-c: (Oh, but any traffic from your ISP's "preferred" network traffic partners, like Disney, will go at full speed.)
m-c: So, we need to make lots of businesses that use bit-torrent and use it legally.
m-c: Shouldn't be too hard
m-c: Just a matter of getting people buying into it. ;)
m-c: goes to look for some legal bittorrent downloads.
Deanjo: You mean like steam?
Deanjo: It's based on BT
redeeman: and blizzard updates
cxo: Brains, hows that 4850 going
Brains: cxo: Haven't really done anything more since last night... Still only one monitor turned on, have to --swap-monitor to see what should be on the other screen. Other than that (and I think no acceleration is turned on at the moment), everything is peachy. *chuckle* I do think that the colors and 2D are a bit nicer than the 7600GS but that might be some "buyer's hope".
cxo: they say the card runs hot
cxo: like really hot, 85degC
cxo: do you find that happening?
cxo: (water boiling at 100degC for those F people)
redeeman: 8800gtx gets 85deg at idle
redeeman: C
redeeman: it's nuts
Brains: Under windows, CCC shows idling at 80C and load is about 87C IIRC. Which is why I'm thinking about getting an accelero or something....
cxo: thats weird the card should idle at like 40degC
cxo: must be a driver issue
Brains: blames the cooler. "Pretty much all the reviews say swapping the cooler out gives really low and expected temps. One review was even talking about 25C at idle, a far cry from the stock cooler's 80C in their test."
Brains: The driver / fan is apparently set to ramp up slow and late to keep it quiet but even that shouldn't cause an idle up that high.
Brains: thinks he even remembers seeing a review that said removing the stock cooler and reapplying the paste dropped the temps as well (but he might be confusing that with another card).
cxo: the 9800gtx 512meger is going for $229 at the local
cxo: is it worth it or should i go for the 4850, cos benches are about equal
cxo: with the 4850 doing a tad better, but we all know about the suckage with ati and linux...
cxo: at 1600x1200 the 4850 beats the 9800gtx at everything actually
redeeman: what about 2560x1600?
cxo: 9800gtx is faster
cxo: by about 2fps
cxo: but its variable
cxo: the 4850 is sometime faster, by the same amount
cxo: no a dominance like at 1600x1200
cxo: ^not
Brains: was wanting to run his 1680x1050 LCDs at native and the 4850 at the price I got made it a no brainer. He's glad 'cause he was waffling back and forth among the various choices.
cxo: me too
cxo: i cant decide, ati or nvidia
cxo: budget ~$250, but expendable if its really going to be worth it
Brains: 'Course, so far, I'm down one monitor... *chuckle*
cxo: its weird at 1600x1200 the 4850 is really happy
cxo: its beast the 9800gtx at everything, i mean every freakin' game you can think of
cxo: s/beast/beats
Brains: I think that the issue with the higher reses (for all cards) is the memory bandwidth.
cxo: yeah, pushing 4 mega pixel renders a gazillion times a second onto the bus is not easy
cxo: you can also get a 10ftp boost ( <= 1600x1200 ) if you OC to 700/2300
cxo: (quite safe with stock cooler)
cxo: s/ftp/fps
cxo: but the fun really kicks in at CF, it just murders
cxo: 16xAA, 16xAF and just run crysis at whatever res you want and just enjoy it
cxo: 2x 4850s is <$400 investment,
cxo: faster than a single 280gtx
cxo: use less power than a single 280gtx
cxo: and cheap than a single 280gtx
cxo: ^cheaper
redeeman: can you run it at 2560x1600?
Brains: Oh, I forgot to mention that I played with OC'ing under windows via the CCC... Maxed out the GPU (think it was 700 on their tool) and something like 1150 on the memory.
Brains: wishes he had the cash to drop on 2x 4850s during the sale. 'Course, he'd need to get a Crossfire mobo and then reinstall everything so he's probably happier that he didn't.
redeeman: i have crossfire mobo
Exopaladin: mine half supports crossfire :P
cxo: ok its topgear time!
Exopaladin: it's supported, but the second slot only does 4x speed so the second card won't exactly be operating at full potential
cxo: switches off all the lights, disconnects the phone, locks the door, and turns on the Nak
Exopaladin: heh
dashcloud: hi, if I'd like to use S/MIME and sign my emails, what choices for certificates do I have? I know about thawte, but that's it pretty much
redeeman: doesent verisign offer it?
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus et al: Just finished some revisions in trondheim-12 and now PTS has an easy and clean threading system in place for modules.
dashcloud: they do, but thawte is the "cheaper" subsidiary I've heard
dashcloud: I'd rather not pay for a signing certificate unless I really have to
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: is that branch publicly accessible from phorogit?
michaellarabel: uncle_fungus: I am not sure... I push it to git and it says "everything updated" not sure what I need to do off hand to create a remote branch
dashcloud: I saw the update about the new point release of the test suite, but it seemed a little short on details on the new video encoding test suite- anything written about it specifically?
michaellarabel: the video-encoding test suite is just of mplayer and ffmpeg tests right now
dashcloud: the regression tests, or something else?
michaellarabel: timed sample encoding of video files
dashcloud: okay
uncle_fungus: michaellarabel: I'm not familiar with the inner workings of git, but it doesn't look like I can see the new branch on phorogit.
uncle_fungus: if you run `git branch` on the server does it show trondheim-12?
michaellarabel: Yeah, it just shows master
michaellarabel: I'll try manually copying the files to the server
cxo: wow that was orgasmic
cxo: i went through 2 packets of crisps, 2 cokes and 4 bars of chocolate
cxo: "..mek mistake, i keeeel you"
cxo: man i cant wait to see the 600-benz
cxo: hey michaellarabel how come you didnt compare the 9800gtx to the 4850?
cxo: that's its intended rival anyways
michaellarabel: cxo: It will be, but the 4850 had a BIOS bug when I did the 9800GTX testing. The 4850 results will contain the numbers.
cxo: bios bug?
cxo: the video card bios?
cxo: what manufacturer?
cxo: i think its funny how everyone talks about Folding@Home now when it comes to video cards...
vadi2: ?
cxo: well its always mentioned now, as if its something people look for when buying a video card
cxo: because of whatever API (CUDA and friends) that lets you do that in the background
vadi2: never heard it that way. I didn't like it much either when I tried it
vadi2: that mono thing abused my cpu quite badly..
cxo: do the new nvidia cards look ugly or what!?
cxo: its just this big black box
cxo: thats probably going to bump into my hard drives...
cxo: and all the ati cards are hot red, with a transparent casing....
cxo: single slot too
cxo: You know what will really suck, if i buy a ati card and nvidia makes their drivers open source....
cxo: bastards tigerdirect have the 4850 and the 9800gtx at the same price, $243.99
Deanjo: heh cxo, some of us prefer stealthy look vs the "OMG look at me!!!" . Personally I think it's a lot more satisfying blowing away that new mustang in my 80 Chev 1/2 ton that looks stock then if it was the other way around.
cxo: yeah thats the way to go
cxo: "hidden power" is what is sexy
cxo: i've got an old merc i've been thinking of throwing a ls6 crate into one of these days
cxo: 400horses in car that weight 1.2tons...
cxo: thats more power/weight than an e55 amg
cxo: but whoever has the time
cxo: i'll be retired by the time i get round to doing it
cxo: but for a video card, i think the shinier it looks the better
Deanjo: http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/deanjo/my54.jpg <---my "flash" vehicle 595 HP 393 stroker
cxo: most big black boxes emit the word "POWER", from the way servers are designed
Deanjo: 383
cxo: oooh nice toy
Deanjo: Ya used to be the water truck before my teenage hands got it lol
Deanjo: 4 years and soooooooooooo much money later
cxo: heh i can bet
cxo: i'm sorta drowned in work, lots of quick career changes etc... getting no time to do anything else but work
Deanjo: Now it only comes out for cruise nights and open drag night
cxo: i'll drive the merc, drag it at every traffic light i hit
cxo: the sort of suspension work i'd need to hold 400 horses, gives me a head ache even before looking at it
cxo: H&R have some very nice kits these days
cxo: engine swaps are really time consuming, and more expensive, the less time you have on your hands
Deanjo: Ya I've got a 68 SS Camaro sitting in the garage that has been a love/hate project going on 7 years now
cxo: damn
cxo: i'm not really a fan of american cars, but the 60s/70s mustang and challenger are notorious
Deanjo: I work on it, get sick of it, then walk away for a while rather then being tempted to take shortcuts
cxo: do you guys get a lot of snow there in sask..
Deanjo: Ya a fair amount usually
cxo: you probably didnt get 4.5meters like we did last season
Deanjo: Last couple of years have been above average
cxo: i think we broke the record for the city
cxo: which was set in 1989 i think, at 4.4meters
Deanjo: We do get big dumps but being the prairies it blows away as fast as it hits
cxo: oh i didnt know that
cxo: i usually have a snow hill 2 meters high on either side of my drive way
Deanjo: Ya on the farm the banks at the house were up to the roof
cxo: damn canadian weather, why do we live here...
Deanjo: When we get storms though, they are usually accompanied with 60-70 mph winds
cxo: it wasnt cold last season, didnt go below -25degC, but lots of snow
Deanjo: Oh we had our little cold snap in Dec or Jan IIRC
Deanjo: hit -50 ish
cxo: jeez
cxo: i think i'm good in my parker till about -35degC, but i cant stay out for more than 30mins
cxo: (30mins was my walk from the university, and i'd literally die if it was any longer ... )
Deanjo: Like I say, -50C to +50 C in a year is not unheard of in Sask. But then again your guys generally are alot more humid then us so your -35 probably feels like our -50
Deanjo: We had a pretty bad storm last year, 6 people died in the city from it. Stupid asses left their stuck car
cxo: thats extreme, -50 to +50 degC
cxo: should have stayed in the car
Deanjo: Yup
Deanjo: Of course they were all city folk. Farm people know better
Deanjo: Plus with how some of these kids dress like it's summer nowdays in the winter it's not surprising
cxo: heh weird, i'd thought city folk would have been to scared to leave the car
Deanjo: Farm people usually have their vehicles prepared with emergency items
cxo: i'm thinking of getting an old land rover or something this year, i got tired of pushing the car out of the snow last year
Deanjo: Few candles, snowmobile suits, blankets, etc etc
Deanjo: Especially in Sask. Because of the wind it's hard to tell sometimes in the winter where the edge of the road is and where the ditch begins
cxo: heh yeah
cxo: what do people drive over there?
Deanjo: Same stuff you guys drive
Deanjo: a few more snowmobiles perhaps
cxo: ftp://cruiseoveride.selfip.net:/pub
cxo: woops, no : between /pub
cxo: ftp://cruiseoveride.selfip.net/pub/00008.jpg
Deanjo: The dumb people buy the 4 wheel drives thinking it can get them out of anything. The smart ones know that if it really is that bad out that you need a 4 wheel drive, you should probably stay at home.
cxo: see if that link loads...
Deanjo: nope
Deanjo: but the first one had some nice midget porn :P
cxo: heh
Deanjo: now it's loading
cxo: damn iptables...
Deanjo: Ya that looks about the same amount we got in the city this year
cxo: no limited split diff on that car
cxo: man i grew some muscles that winter
cxo: i'm thinking of getting some 400E springs and maybe some big winter tires this year...
cxo: or maybe a 1st gen land rover, supposed to be the best
cxo: damn its 00... got to be up in the AM......
cxo: adios
Deanjo: later
< Phoronix IRC Home
Copyright © 2004 - 2013 by Phoronix Media.
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. All rights reserved. Legal Disclaimer & Disclosure.
Powered by the Phoronix Content Management System (PHXCMS-7.4).
All trademarks used are properties of their respective owners. All rights reserved. Legal Disclaimer & Disclosure.
Powered by the Phoronix Content Management System (PHXCMS-7.4).