Drivers for linux are rubbish

[mugginz]

compositing has always increased CPU load for me with any window manager and driver combination for me.

Not to any noticeable level for me. If you're reading the output of top you might see it there but overall I find it improves things.

If you use open drivers, then video playback is not a problem and never has been.

If you're using open drivers then they're other negative performance issues introduced.

[mugginz]

Competition (nVidia) does not work well with KDE4, and since the drivers for older cards are considered legacy, they likely never will.

KDE4 has worked really well on nVidia hardware for me. This is with an 8600GT, 7600GS, 8400GS and my current 9800GT. On the systems I've setup for others I've also not had problems.

As to nVidia legacy support, I was able to setup a Celeron III 1.2GHz system with an nVidia TNT2 and an MX400 with their legacy drivers on Ubuntu 10.04 and Kubuntu 10.04 with compositing enabled and they were also fine.

I had problems for years, until my laptop died. Don't know how it is today, but Konsole was broken when using compositing, and there were artifacts at different places.

You're having issues I've not had but I realise that doesn't mean they're not real. I wonder if they were somewhat due to some hardware failure in some way.

nVidia's binary drivers are better than fglrx, but they are not perfect, regardless of what the fanboys spout.

I would hope there aren't any nVidia fanbois spouting that nVidia on Linux is perfect. If they spout that it's better than fglrx and your likely to have a much nicer experience with nVidia then I'd agree with them.

Graphics on Linux isn't perfect. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with recommending the most optimal solution though whether that be nVidia or AMD.

Binary drivers are not a solution for Linux, they are a pain in the ass and a crutch until native drivers are written.

The milisecond there's viable open drivers for graphics hardware I'll be using them. Not until. Where they're suitable then fine. The open drivers can't compete with the blobs in some areas though. Also, fglrx isn't open last time I checked.

It's a lot like running Office through WINE.

I completely disagree.

[mugginz]

Well given the test made by Michael the other day, it seems nvidia has some performance decrease with compositing, while the competition (fglrx) doesn't. Sometimes he even tested an increase in performance with fglrx.

Firstly, your software has to run in an acceptable way before you can then come to the issue of performance.

Secondly, as to the performance degradation, there was some discussion as to why this was the case, with one person digging up this article.

http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2010/...he-benchmarks/

Did Michael re-run the tests with unredirect full screen windows enabled?

Also xrandr works like sh*t with nvidia (I also own a nvidia card), but works quite perfect with fglrx with compositing. I'm able to use the buildin screen utility in gnome, where I'm able to expand my desktop to a tv and have tear free video through mplayer. Thats quite enough for me.

And I'm able to do that with the nVidia utility. I'm hardly going to use a lesser card just so I can use the Gnome utility to do this.

Also, you say that fglrx works perfectly with compositing. Why are others saying this isn't the case. What are they doing wrong? Perhaps you could write a howto for them.

I'm not trying to start a flamewar, I am just saying that nvidia isn't perfect either. They both have some issues.

Again. The Linux graphics subsystems aren't perfect. Neither are nVidia's and AMD's blobs. Most often the nVidia blob seems to provide the best experience though.

[Kano]

As to nVidia legacy support, I was able to setup a Celeron III 1.2GHz system with an nVidia TNT2 and an MX400 with their legacy drivers on Ubuntu 10.04 and Kubuntu 10.04 with compositing enabled and they were also fine.

That can't be correct, nv 71.xx series driver for a tnt2 does not support xserver 1.5+, so most likely you used nouveau for it - that would not be a legacy nv driver. The 96.xx series driver can work for MX400 but sometimes it dislikes new kernels on certain systems, 2.6.28 kernel works best for it in case of problems.

[mugginz]

That can't be correct, nv 71.xx series driver for a tnt2 does not support xserver 1.5+, so most likely you used nouveau for it - that would not be a legacy nv driver. The 96.xx series driver can work for MX400 but sometimes it dislikes new kernels on certain systems, 2.6.28 kernel works best for it in case of problems.

My mistake. The two cards were a Geforce2 MX400 (circa early 2000) and a Gefore4 MX440 (circa early 2002)

Still demonstrates that the use of anchient nVidia cards can be used on a modern composited Linux desktop though.

Some seem to be suggesting that in order to use old cards you have to use open drivers and this just isn't the case.

[mugginz]

I should add that the last Ubuntu release with out of the box support for the TNT2 was Jaunty (released April 2009).

[Hans]

Firstly, your software has to run in an acceptable way before you can then come to the issue of performance.

Secondly, as to the performance degradation, there was some discussion as to why this was the case, with one person digging up this article.

http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2010/...he-benchmarks/

Did Michael re-run the tests with unredirect full screen windows enabled?

What do you mean by your application has to run in a acceptable way? Are you saying they don't with fglrx? Every single application installed on my computer works just fine.

Well why would you have to use unredirect full screen windows. Is that a workaround? I though you mentioned that you don't like work arounds. <- Sorry couldn't resist :P

And I'm able to do that with the nVidia utility. I'm hardly going to use a lesser card just so I can use the Gnome utility to do this.

Fair enough.

Also, you say that fglrx works perfectly with compositing. Why are others saying this isn't the case. What are they doing wrong? Perhaps you could write a howto for them.

Show me a thread where it doesn't work. If you find one, I'll show you a thread where it doesn't work with nvidia.

Again. The Linux graphics subsystems aren't perfect. Neither are nVidia's and AMD's blobs. Most often the nVidia blob seems to provide the best experience though.

That might be true. But I just don't have that experience with my cards (ATI and Nvidia). Do you even own an Ati card and can comment from your own experience?

[mugginz]

Firstly, your software has to run in an acceptable way before you can then come to the issue of performance.

Secondly, as to the performance degradation, there was some discussion as to why this was the case, with one person digging up this article.

http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2010/...he-benchmarks/

Did Michael re-run the tests with unredirect full screen windows enabled?

What do you mean by your application has to run in a acceptable way? Are you saying they don't with fglrx? Every single application installed on my computer works just fine.

Many are reporting issues with vsync and wine to mention two. The fact that you aren't provides hope.

Well why would you have to use unredirect full screen windows. Is that a workaround? I though you mentioned that you don't like work arounds. <- Sorry couldn't resist :P

If fglrx doesn't provide proper redirected direct rendering and therefore provides a boost due to that then that's nothing to be proud of. I'll also take clicking a check box saying "unredirect full screen windows" over dealing with fglrx's current issues anyday.

Also, you say that fglrx works perfectly with compositing. Why are others saying this isn't the case. What are they doing wrong? Perhaps you could write a howto for them.

Show me a thread where it doesn't work. If you find one, I'll show you a thread where it doesn't work with nvidia.

It's not that nVidia is perfect. It's that it's less troublesome than fglrx. Are you saying that's not the case?

Again. The Linux graphics subsystems aren't perfect. Neither are nVidia's and AMD's blobs. Most often the nVidia blob seems to provide the best experience though.

That might be true. But I just don't have that experience with my cards (ATI and Nvidia). Do you even own an Ati card and can comment from your own experience?

I want to own an ATI card. I was about to buy one on the promises made by others prior to the release of fglrx 10.5 but then these forums had posters saying they were still having problems with it and it wasn't fixing issues they were hoping it would.

Some on these boards are saying just buy one and if it doesn't perform, just take it back and get an nVidia one. I'm afraid that's not the was things work here in Geelong. If I buy it, it's mine. If it's faulty, they'll R.M.A. it and I'll get another example of the same model.

Basically, I can't say "I bought this card cause someone on a forum said fglrx now works but it doesn't really, can I have my money back."

If someone can lend me a 5870 for two weeks then I'm happy to give it a go. I've not been able to get a lend card so far though.



See the monitor on the right. It's currently not lit. The nVidia card driving it went back to were it came from. I'm left with the other two via a 9800GT. I'm waiting for fglrx to get into a fit state before I can use it.

[Panix]

It's not that nVidia is perfect. It's that it's less troublesome than fglrx. Are you saying that's not the case?

I want to own an ATI card.

Some on these boards are saying just buy one and if it doesn't perform, just take it back and get an nVidia one. I'm afraid that's not the was things work here in Geelong. If I buy it, it's mine. If it's faulty, they'll R.M.A. it and I'll get another example of the same model.

Basically, I can't say "I bought this card cause someone on a forum said fglrx now works but it doesn't really, can I have my money back."

Same here. I'd like to get an ATI card but there's no taking it back because you're unsatisfied how it runs in Linux.

Another reason ATI is suspect for support is that there is no support for X-Server 1.8. Therefore, you can't even use a HD 4xxx card in Fedora 13 except for OSS drivers. But, then what are your options for 3D?

So, ATI won't even cover the latest Fedora and this distro is in the top 3 of popularity. Nvidia's 9xxx and GT200 at least work in it so you can compare to at least HD 4xxx's situation. I am not sure about Fermi cards but Evergreen doesn't work in Fedora at all either.

ATI/AMD have slow support but in this particular case, NO support.

[Exopaladin]

Same here. I'd like to get an ATI card but there's no taking it back because you're unsatisfied how it runs in Linux.

Another reason ATI is suspect for support is that there is no support for X-Server 1.8. Therefore, you can't even use a HD 4xxx card in Fedora 13 except for OSS drivers. But, then what are your options for 3D?

So, ATI won't even cover the latest Fedora and this distro is in the top 3 of popularity. Nvidia's 9xxx and GT200 at least work in it so you can compare to at least HD 4xxx's situation. I am not sure about Fermi cards but Evergreen doesn't work in Fedora at all either.

ATI/AMD have slow support but in this particular case, NO support.

There's no *official* 1.8 support but it seems to work okay for me on Arch Linux with 1.8. I say okay, I mean okay as far as the ATI drivers go; which means broken FBO in wine/other apps with <10.5, or working FBO but other apps segfaulting on launch in 10.5 along with mediocre 2D performance in general.

As it is, unless 10.6 is a VAST improvement, I'm going to sell my 5850 and buy a GTX 465 and take the minor heat/power increase for usable Linux performance.