Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

[Vim_User]

If kwin maintener keeps maintaining a cool head and not make it work on Ubuntu he'll either be killed by the people who want KDE on Ubuntu or KDE will lose serious marketshare.

Why should upstream work with patches that clearly are downstream patches? Hey, because its Ubuntu and if you deny to do the work that actually is the work of Canonical you must be an Ubuntu hater?
And no, the kwin maintainer is not actively hindering Ubuntu from anything and he is not hindering KDE to work on Ubuntu. It is Canonical that is doing the things you accuse Mr. Gr??lin to do, with the choices they have made for Ubuntu/Mir. Maybe you should actually read his blog post, he clearly states the reasons why at this time there is no kwin/KDE support for Mir and none of that reasons is caused by anyone else than Canonical.

[TheBlackCat]

If kwin maintener keeps maintaining a cool head and not make it work on Ubuntu he'll either be killed by the people who want KDE on Ubuntu or KDE will lose serious marketshare.

Ignoring the fact that it isn't even technically possible for various reasons and probably never will be, you are assuming that Mir is actually successful. That remains to be seen. We are a long way from having Mir remotely close to working, and further still from seeing whether it will help Ubuntu or hurt them.

Ubuntu is breaking away from the companies that have actually been able to make money off Linux, the companies that have most of software and hardware knowledge and experience, the companies that hardware and software vendors make pretty much all their money from. You think this is the road to success. I have my doubts, especially considering the quality of their technical analysis and research so far.

[TheBlackCat]

Contributing would be pointless at this stage.

Apparently it has been pointless at every stage.

They are trying to break away because the 'community' isn't focused on what Canonical is trying to achieve, that is, market dominance.

Except that pretty much everything they have was developed by the "community" Canonical is so against. The stuff that is actually original to them is very limited.

The fact of the matter is the only companies that have actually been able to turn a profit with Linux have done so by working with, rather than against, the community. After 8 years of trying to do things their own way, not contributing back, not collaborating, ripping off other development communities so they can release stuff first, bad-mouthing them while copying them, and overall ignoring the wider Linux community (all the stuff they have done with Mir), they still haven't been able to make a profit. On the other hand companies like Red Hat, which work closely with the community, contribute back, and collaborate with other development communities, make a fortune off Linux. Surely if Canonical's strategy was so successful 8 years of it should have gotten them a least a small profit.

It is pretty ironic that despite Canonical doing everything they can to alienate Kubuntu and all of Canonical's trying to position Ubuntu as the desktop Linux distro, Kubuntu is responsible for the largest Linux desktop deployment in history. Nothing Canonical has done with Ubuntu comes remotely close.

War is brewing and maybe (or actually hopefully) Canonical will go the way of Apple.

We already have an Apple. Android didn't succeed because Google decided to behave like Apple, Android succeeded because Google behaved completely differently from Apple.

[duby229]

Contributing would be pointless at this stage. They are trying to spear head into the desktop. They are trying to break away because the 'community' isn't focused on what Canonical is trying to achieve, that is, market dominance. Contributing and making sure their solutions work on other distros would just be a waste of time, especially now when time is short and must focus on the mobile market while keeping Ubuntu on the desktop solid and makeing in default on hardware. The task is gargantuan as it is. The community is basically an enemy right now that tries to keep them from breaking away. They are basically trying to keep them in their circle and when they try to get out they pull them back. War is brewing and maybe (or actually hopefully) Canonical will go the way of Apple. The community is really against them at this point and they need more control. Listening and working with the community basically fucks you if you want to gain market dominance. The community is really not focused on what the user needs and Canonical needs to focus on exactly that. If you want success you can't listen to unsuccessful people. And your beloved community has been unsuccessul for more than 20 years. They are not going to change. Apple understood that maybe it's time for Canonical to understand that. (Also I wonder what Canonical thinks when they see so many haters on forums, but I don't know if they read phoronix).

Fuck market dominance. I'd call linux a smashing success especially (or because) without market dominance. There really isnt any point in trying to explain to you why. It would just go in one ear and out the other.

[ninez]

Be specific: Which parts of the ?GNOME stack? does Unity use to make it a shell for GNOME? And no, a mere blog post by Mark Shuttleworth or Jono Bacon who simply wrote that Unity is a shell for GNOME does not count as technical argument.

I don't think anyone in their right mind, would claim Jono's and Mark's comments as being technical in nature. But it's funny, being as both of them are central characters @ Canonical - Who have already told you that Unity is a shell for Gnome :\ ~ That doesn't need to be a technical argument, but yeah, thanks for pointing that out than Even Canonical disagrees with you.

Please, (forcefully) remove all Gnome components from your Ubuntu/Unity system, if you are going to continue to argue this stuff. - since you think it will have no impact. (hint: Unity/Compiz won't work, you will not be able to manage most applications settings, nor environment settings. ie: your desktop will be utterly broken).

Ubuntu's default browser is Firefox, not GNOME Web. The mailer is Thunderbird, not Evolution. The office suite is LibreOffice, not whatever GNOME offers.
As I already wrote: Key parts of the technology foundation were replaced by non-GNOME versions. To repeat myself: LightDM instead of GDM, accounts-sso instead of GOA, Maliit instead of GNOME Keyboard, Nux instead of Clutter, Compiz instead of Mutter.

Interesting take, but -> Thunderbird and LibreOffice aren't key components (ie: they aren't critical to your desktop actually working). One could argue just as easily that they (ubuntu) kept even more important key components - dconf/gsettings (critical backend component, say goodbye to storing a plethra of settings, needed by Compiz and many other apps and your desktop in general), gnome terminal (a terminal - critical component of a linux DE), nautilus (yeah, a file manager is a critical component of any desktop, much more critical than something like thunderbird, for example), gnome-control-center-unity and friends (oops, Unity relies directly on a mildy patched Gnome app and the libs it's linked against!), gnome-disk-utility, gnome-bluetooth (how does Unity manage Bluetooth, then?), gnome-docs, gnome-font-viewer, gnome-keyring (oops, can't manage your keys without it), gnome-settings-daemon, gnome-icon-* .... and this list could go on and on...

Ubuntu currently (and always has) relied heavily on gnome. Unity is not a DE - it's a shell running on top of Gnome. (Unity-Next is another story, but incomplete and there is no desktop version yet)... You have cited non-critical applications as being key components to allow the Ubuntu desktop to actually work, which they are not.

Ubuntu ships many GNOME dependencies by default because it ships some GNOME applications by default: Nautilus, Shotwell, and a few others.
But the key point is: Unity itself is not written using GNOME technologies, therefore it's not a shell that has anything to do with GNOME. (Cinnamon in comparison is at least written using GNOME's libmutter.

again, remove all of your gnome-related packages, you'll see how well Unity runs. No, the key point is Canonical has told you it's a Shell for Gnome and Your Ubuntu Desktop will not work without a great number of Gnome components installed, including Unity. end of story...

but again - just go ahead and forcefully remove every package that has come from gnome - if you can't remove them, delete all associated files for each package - thenb reboot / logout/login or whatever - then let us know how well your desktop is behaving

[jrch2k8]

Contributing would be pointless at this stage. They are trying to spear head into the desktop. They are trying to break away because the 'community' isn't focused on what Canonical is trying to achieve, that is, market dominance. Contributing and making sure their solutions work on other distros would just be a waste of time, especially now when time is short and must focus on the mobile market while keeping Ubuntu on the desktop solid and makeing in default on hardware. The task is gargantuan as it is. The community is basically an enemy right now that tries to keep them from breaking away. They are basically trying to keep them in their circle and when they try to get out they pull them back. War is brewing and maybe (or actually hopefully) Canonical will go the way of Apple. The community is really against them at this point and they need more control. Listening and working with the community basically fucks you if you want to gain market dominance. The community is really not focused on what the user needs and Canonical needs to focus on exactly that. If you want success you can't listen to unsuccessful people. And your beloved community has been unsuccessul for more than 20 years. They are not going to change. Apple understood that maybe it's time for Canonical to understand that. (Also I wonder what Canonical thinks when they see so many haters on forums, but I don't know if they read phoronix).

1. the community is not against canonical, only you ubutrolls think so in your imaginary world
2. canonical is against the community or some project manager is loosing it, why?

reasons:
Unity: no one is against unity per se[we have 20+ DE 1 more won't kill kittens] but is such a horrible mess to actually build it that only canonical can achieve it and all other distros stay away from it[ofc ubutroll is too dumb to see code so invent imaginary paranoic alternate realities because is easier] for that reason alone, i mean even the gentoo team tried and gave it up and we are talking prolly of the most skilled distro maintainers and patch maker around. maybe it will change once is migrated to Qt5

Mir: first canonical dumped a bunch a FUD about wayland and they didn't even checkout the code to see if it was actually coherent[very professional if you ask me] and later had to swallow the FUD and make the corrections, that ended probing that wayland does all canonical[and everyone else] need except the ability of dual license[which could be talked about atleast]

contribution: Canonical use code but almost never contribute anything back beside small fixes needed for ubuntu only and when they try to do it those patches are such a dramatic mess it never reaches upstream[again ubutroll doesnt literate themselves is too hard it seems]

bazaar: i don't even get why they lost time with this?? is not better than git or mercurial is actually slower than subversion and lack most of the tools that git or mercurial have

control center: prolly the slowest more horrid python code ever written by mankind and it doesn't do anything magical that Gnome/Kde/EFL doesn't do

upstart: systemd NIH?? openrc[quite similar] NIH?? and even if years ago had a killer feature[which didn't] today is very far behind systemd and systemd is actually lots easier to use[the systemd service files can be easilly created by any ubutroll which says a lot of how easy it actually is]

kernel maintenance: well they do it downstream cuz well it seems too hard for them to reach upstream code quality standars[awesome code team] with crappy drivers that not even reach staging in mainline and bunch of security issues that don't apply to upstream[ubutroll don't care about security, we know]

apt-get/deb: took it from debian

easy of install: took it from debian

awesome easy structure: took it from debian

most security fixes: took them from debian

NetworkManager: Redhat

Pulseaudio: Redhat

awesome linux advantages and speed: redhat + community

eucaliptus: redhat + partners +community

KVM: redhat + community

android driver/libhubris: 100% community

and i can go all day, so beyond actually doing some PR and deals with hw vendors canonical is a communty/redhat leech that try to take all the glory and never give anything back, so yeah the community don't trust canonical but is not sabotaging it either, after all canonical eng. team has demostrated again and again their work is a mess and never meet deadlines let alone maintain projects over time.

so lets see if they can actually pull off code Mir and then we have to see if they can pull off maintain it, then we'll see if other distros adopted it

my bet is wayland for ubuntu 14.10 and mir to their project graveyard

[jrch2k8]

Market dominance is what Ubuntu is aiming. And even Torvalds wants that. Fuck market dominance is the atitude of the loser who can't see the advantages of being dominant in the market.

well for market dominance Linux in general or ubuntu need more than a half baked graphic server and a shell like de enviroment. For market dominance the most pressing issue is ABI stability and AAA applications like photoshop/Autocad/etc. and with canonical awesome coders the first seem very far away and the second won't happen without the first.

outside the technical scope you need some redhat level financial muscle marketing campaign and pressure on BIOS/hw makers for proper standards and complete drivers which canonical wonder boys can't write themselves.

so they are taking steps but is absolutely unrealistic to think that will happen is less than 5 years and without a strong community involvement for the desktop, on mobile maybe is possible in a shorter timeframe since mobile apps are really simplistic

[dee.]

If linux will ever get a larger marketshare it won't be because there will be 20 distros who each have 4% and you know it. There will be one major distro that will go on taking over the world. Right now the distro with the best chances is Ubuntu. Which is why I am arguing that Ubuntu is the best distro for the masses. But of course you arch users who fucking hate it for people having it easy must come in and troll and try to stop Canonical dead in its tracks. And it's not just you. You are just one of the many Canonical haters and some of them are devs who actively try to hurt Canonical by the way they behave and try to remove support for them as much as they can. And of course they use the argument that Canonical is evil. And they are just responding to evilness. No way in hell would they admit that they are just jealous of Canonical's success.

At some point, when it seems like everyone else is an idiot and you're the only one who knows the truth... a sensible person would ask him/herself, "am I in the wrong? Can I really be smarter than everyone else, and everyone else just doesn't get it, or could it be that they all can see something that I don't?"

A sensible, rational person doubts him/herself from time to time. A sensible person is not afraid to consider the possibility that he/she might be wrong, and is willing to entertain the thought. Self-doubt is a very important part of critical thought, because if you only apply critical thought to others but not yourself, then you have truly become blind.

You can keep on blaming others, making up excuses, thinking that everyone else is just "jealous"... but if you're a sensible person, some day you will see that the emperor has no clothes.

[valeriodean]

Back in topic, "KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir", but what are the news about Kwin and Wayland?
Just take a look to the Martin's g+ page, starting from 14 May, seems like he has achieved interesting step forward about Kwin and Wayland in a short ammount of time.
The last video posted: click here

So, summarizing the situation: KDE has little hope for ubuntu's Mir, but no doubt for the not-ubuntu's Wayland.
ROFL

[alexThunder]

1. the community is not against canonical, only you ubutrolls think so in your imaginary world
2. canonical is against the community or some project manager is loosing it, why?

reasons:

[...]

Your point with Mir makes sense, but how does the rest of that list relate to your question you tried to answer? Check your semantics.

upstart: systemd NIH??

Actually, it's the other way round :P