Binary Driver Blobs Aren't Yet Ready For Wayland

[Danny3]

Your view is based on a falsehood. Binary blobs helped drive Android to be the #1 smartphone OS in the world.

By your logic Android should be sniveling around the bottom of the barrel since it's loaded up with blobs.

Come on, Android is not number #1 because of the binary blobs, it's #1 because is being backed up by Google. They could've made everything open-source or they could've obligated the provider to provide open-source software, but they don't really care that much about open-source and they just want to make money.

Also, since I see you are a fierceful defender of binary blobs, could you tell me the advantages of blobs over open source drivers?
Please don't give me crap like: every successful company uses them, to be number 1 you must use them or that they are better, faster, smoother, etc...
Of course they are better, faster, etc. since this shitty companies (nVidia, AMD) don't want to release the specifications for developers.

I also use the nVidia binary blob, but I hate them with all my heart because they're not releasing the specs for the nouveau developers. Nouveau would've been at least as good as the binary blog, even better. Because of this I will never buy a nvidia (or AMD) graphics card again.

Good job Intel.

[archibald]

since this shitty companies (nVidia, AMD) don't want to release the specifications for developers.
...Because of this I will never buy a nvidia (or AMD) graphics card again.

AMD do release specifications for developers. They don't have everything released but they are doing a lot and trying to do more so I think you are being unjust by putting them in the same boat as Nvidia (I know they start it with a lower case 'n', but I like grammar more than marketing).

Good job Intel.

Hear hear!

[Drago]

Even Valve, were astonished by Open Drivers, because they are not black box anymore to them. FOSS Intel drivers, helped them to find some bottlenecks in their Source Engine Linux port, and in the graphics driver.

[Danny3]

AMD do release specifications for developers. They don't have everything released but they are doing a lot and trying to do more so I think you are being unjust by putting them in the same boat as Nvidia (I know they start it with a lower case 'n', but I like grammar more than marketing).

1. Yes, they do release specifications for developers, sorry for putting them in the same boat as Nvidia for that. But in my case they are the shittiest company I have ever dealt with. Why? I have an HD4850, I had black screen problems on Windows with it, (lots of guys reported on their forums) never solved. On linux, small driver changes, no changelog. Now the card is unsupported on Linux, on Windows is or will be soon. This is an middle-end card from 3 generations ago. Wtf AMD?

2. You are right about marketing, Nvidia.

3. About Wayland, I hope the developers don't change a single bit to make it easier for Nvidia or AMD. They should concentrate to make the server as best as possible. Nvidia and AMD will develop drivers for Wayland in the end. Until then we have Intel.

[johnc]

Come on, Android is not number #1 because of the binary blobs, it's #1 because is being backed up by Google. They could've made everything open-source or they could've obligated the provider to provide open-source software, but they don't really care that much about open-source and they just want to make money.

Well I didn't say "because of" but rather "helped". If Google obligated every partner to open-source all of their drivers, you would dramatically cut off the number of participants in the ecosystem. It's precisely that competition and variation of hardware that has made Android so successful.

Otherwise we'd all be stuck with a subpar phone (like Intel's) while Qualcomm, Samsung, NVIDIA, etc. would be pushing forward Windows phones (if Microsoft weren't caught napping and actually had a decent platform in place).

Also, since I see you are a fierceful defender of binary blobs, could you tell me the advantages of blobs over open source drivers?

The primary advantage is that it allows for companies to remain in the system who, for whatever reasons, can not or do not want to open source their drivers. The end result is a better product for the consumer (again, I reference Android).

Cut those companies off and all you'll end up with is a third-rate OS.

Linus knows this and AFAIK he has never endorsed the idea of a no-blob Linux.

[bridgman]

1. Yes, they do release specifications for developers, sorry for putting them in the same boat as Nvidia for that. But in my case they are the shittiest company I have ever dealt with. Why? I have an HD4850, I had black screen problems on Windows with it, (lots of guys reported on their forums) never solved. On linux, small driver changes, no changelog. Now the card is unsupported on Linux, on Windows is or will be soon. This is an middle-end card from 3 generations ago. Wtf AMD?

Just curious, why do you get "unsupported on Linux" ? The HD4xxx has moved to a legacy branch on a slower release schedule but there's already been a first release adding X 1.12 support...

[ninez]

How about if instead of you insulting me (calling me shite) you try to do the same things you do with the blob but with nouveau, and when you see something that doesn't work, report that issue to the nouveau developers?

Oh I know, of course you won't, you are an open-source hypocrite. Like the many others in this forum.

I'm pretty sure the nouveau developers are aware of short comings and missing features in the driver - it isn't a question of stumbling across a bug, reproducing it and reporting it. They know power-management is a flop, they know they don't support OpenGL 4.x, etc. What would be the point in me contacting them over things they already know about, exactly?

and by the way, while you are telling me to stop insulting you (like a little bitch!), you earlier posted to someone else this;

YOU should go and die in a fire. Fucking moron

You are a little punk. You are are total peice of shite and you deserve ZERO respect from anyone in this forum.

You will rather call nouveau "garbage" and insult the tremendous work of so many people who have bothered to RE the hardware for your own benefit, but then you go on braging that you "contributed" with bug reports.

And yes, I have used Linux for a long time and contributed to hundred of bugs reports also, but that doesn't give me the right to insult people and their work, like you guys do.

somehow how i don't believe that you have been using Linux nearly as long as you say, by not only your posts in this thread, but by the many others in other threads in the phoronix forums. IMO you're probably full of shit, but i won't exclude all possibilities Now;

1st. Don't misquote me to support your fallacious statements.... I never said that Nouveau was garbage. What i did say was it is garbage compared to the blob. You do know their is a huge difference there, right? To be quite honest though, i would go much further and say - not only is it crap compared to the blob, but also compared to any of the other main OSS GFX drivers... 2nd. How does reverse-engineering something that i don't even use 'benefit me' exactly? (it doesn't, i don't use it!). it did possibly benefit Nouveau though, being as i was using unsupported GFX card and the data i collected could have helped in their efforts. 3rd. I wasn't insulting their work. Nouveau compared to the blob sucks crap in a variety of ways.

You guys are nothing but open-source hypocrites and morons.

Fuck off now.

How am i a "open-source hypocrit"??? - have i made some claim that i am a person who only uses open-source? no, i have not.... I use lots of FOSS software and i also use lots of proprietary software. i have several Linux machines and i also have a Mac. You do realize in order for someone to be a hypocrite, they actually have to do something hypocritical, right???

LOL. you such a dumb fucking SHITE!

[adriankx]

asdx i think is the new Q )

i agree blobs are bad but isnt linux all about choice? why are u being so comunist) we can all live toghether blobs and OSS drivers in same ecosystem. try to let go off all that hate u have inside u and dont spam it here on forums. in the end .... end-user wants choice, choice to run what ever operating system wants or need on his hardware, some want to use their hardware to their full extent that means using blobs, others are just fine with OSS drivers included in distros they use. I for myself i am using OSS radeon driver after in the past succesfully using ati blob, but for my mobility hd 3200 latest amd driver is getting coruptions in windows and linux, so i can say i am pretty good using OSS radeon except the overheating of my laptop. Just for the sake of talking i dont see any major improvement for my card in latest radeon developement i had same frames in mesa 7.8 as i have i mesa 8.0 its true i only ran extremetuxracer for test got aprox 30 fps and with blob around 90.

And as the trend goes developers will always concentrate on new hardware. So i dont think i`ll see in this life an OSS radeon driver on same feature parity as the official amd blob as crappy as buggy as it is. Kudos for intel dev for actually trying to make a difference i hope only that they improve their hardware also. Hope i didnt offended anyone i just spoke my mind, if by any change i did i appologize in advance.

[Kirurgs]

Let's get the facts straight with real life examples:
* AMD released specs in 2007 (?), that's FIVE years. Did OSS community get driver ready to be on par with fglrx performance wise or power management wise, even at half? NO. My laptop overheats and shuts down when using radeon driver, openarena is slow not counting any other demanding game. fglrx - fine and working. And I have lenovo T500, which supposed to run linux quite good.
* Intel OSS driver and cards, what are they for? Desktop usage. No 3D intensitive tasks, they are crap at games. Unity is SLOW on my GM45 chipset but Vista seems to be fine (I tested it sooo long ago). Now what: OSS can't keep up, but intel is the best supporting drivers. Good for users, well to some extent only.
* HTPC (+nvidia), what it supposed to be: quiet, small, power efficient computer on which we run linux and play 1080p w/o issues. Show me ANY HTPC with OSS drivers that can run 1080p let's say at max 20W usage? NONE, there are NONE. My ION + Atom is about 20W, it's small robust and can be attached to the back of my FHD LED TV with proper HDMI support. OSS not near the goal.
* Every propriety driver has some intellectual property from 3rd parties (not counting the code they write themselves and won't want to show), they can't be opened up, so NO, fglrx or nvidia never will be opensource.
* There already are mentioned facts about Android in this thread, not everyone are willing to be OSS, but a lot from them are willing to be supporting linux.

If specs are opened, how fast OSS can keep up if every year there are NEW SHINY cards available from vendors? By current trend - NEVER.
Do anyone thinks that OSS coders were born with graphics stuff in their heads? Do they know how to optimize OpenGL and stuff like that? NO, they are learning, graphics is most complex stuff in computer.
Linux needs proper, fast and stable GL drivers to enter the real business, OSS - NO, they can't keep up with the pace and don't have the knowledge. AMD/NVIDIA they are hiring people to write that stuff, there are specialized knowledge needed etc.

By saying NO to binary drivers, someone will be shooting himself in the both foots. If Wayland is doing that, well, good luck.
For end-users binary drivers are best bet for say next 5 years, OSS can't keep up and there are good reasons for that but those are not gonna change any time soon.

So anyone saying "blobs must die" are living in imaginary world, please close your eyes while dreaming.

P.S. And yes, asdx is 11 years old troll, how can ninez be so polite (think)

[ninez]

You are the fucking piece of shit. Fuck off, douchebag.

that's all you got???? really?? not going to address a single point??

this is what you say because you have nothing intelligent to contribute, just a bunch of non-sensical rubbish, trolling and ending each post, telling whomever you are responding to to 'fuck off'. LOL.

sorry about you luck, but if you continue to make assoholic posts - i for one have no problem calling you on it

just fucking try me, you little puke!