Nouveau's OpenGL Performance Approaches The NVIDIA Driver

[crazycheese]

I can very good detect the difference between 60 and 85 frames - that said running a normal 24" acer @60hz ! When it is higher than 80, its impossible to sense for me. However once some smoke or irregularity come to the game, the 200 fps one has lot of backing off, compared to 80 fps one. For example urban terror will slow down A LOT from 80 fps to 20 on hd4770 with opensource when bullets are fired, people fragged, or just more than 5 people on the screen, smoke is thrown or map is BIG. This significantly reduces chances to show any skill. My current leased 260 gtx sp 216 draws 125 fps (game limit) regardless of amount of details or 60 when forced to idle timings. But between 200 fps and 300 fps, the difference is more energy waste, card should actually downclock and maintain ~100 fps(120 with vsync).

of course i have spoken about nv as ::nVidia the company::, i shorted it as ,,nv''. and not from the old nvidia module, sry.

so i meant this:
,,opensource nv'' = Nouveau
,,official'' = official nvidia linux driver

for example, here is this: http://Maker3D.tk
It runs with 35-100 fps on official drivers on a nv260gtx. I not yet tried it with the opensource driver, but i have a guess: 3-20fps.

For this application, nobody created any application specific optimisation. Not nvidia and not in nouveau.

This guy has severe problems with licensing. He advocates linux, tons of free software, but his own creation is one of the worst proprietary I ever saw (phoning home and tracking included). The demo reaches 20 fps (30 fps without composite) in kwin on my card (260 gtx sp216 1.7Gb), which gives his software another medal for worst optimization in the history. He should really talk to fsf, maybe they find him much better development model, both opensource and correcting his bugs. The engine looks like free pizza in proprietary iron box now.

[Geri]

You lack the ability to read?

i have logged in to nouveau official irc channel and somebody checked the thing on a eforce 8400M GS, it was able to produce 7 fps with nouveau. Better than excepted. .... original nvidia driver was able to run with 9 fps. however, nouveau lacks the AA.

This guy has severe problems with licensing.
I have no problem with licensing.

This guy.
This guy? I am here, why you talking from me in third person?
You think, i am not worth for talk with you?

The demo reaches 20 fps (30 fps without composite)
30 fps is far enough for a very real-time RPG maker like this, i think.

...He should really talk to fsf, maybe they find him much better...
How much do you pay for it?

[BlackStar]

Yeah, but VSync can result in poorer performance if triple buffering isn't used. Not always, but in at least some cases. So it's understandable that some don't use VSync if they are not hitting the 60fps target with it.

Or, depending on the game, lower visual quality until you can hit 60fps reliably.

Personally, I can't stand tearing so I always keep vsync enabled. I prefer it if a game locks at a steady 30fps rather than fluctuate between 40-100fps. Big thumbs up to Portal 2 for offering this option.

Additionally, older CRT monitors often hit refresh rates up to 100hz or so, so one would gain benefits from hitting 100fps.

Which is why I kept mine till this December That said, you cannot even buy CRT monitors anymore, so that's a non-issue.

Finally, benchmarks that hit above 60fps can give you idea of how much a card will scale in the future, and how it compares to performance of other cards.

Future proofing is a red herring. In almost all cases, it's better to buy a 150? card now and another one in a year or two rather than keep a single 300? card for the same duration. Video cards devalue ridiculously fast and are generally not a very good investment (e-penis and work-related reasons aside).

As for performance comparisons... the real question is whether a given card can maintain 1080p@60fps (or 1080p@120fps or whatever resolution you plan to game at). Do you really care whether it's 2fps faster than another different card at some game? (Try some other game and it'll be slower by 2fps, depending on devrel efforts from AMD/Nvidia/whatever).

[crazycheese]

You lack the ability to read?



This guy has severe problems with licensing.
I have no problem with licensing.

This guy.
This guy? I am here, why you talking from me in third person?
You think, i am not worth for talk with you?

The demo reaches 20 fps (30 fps without composite)
30 fps is far enough for a very real-time RPG maker like this, i think.

...He should really talk to fsf, maybe they find him much better...
How much do you pay for it?

Lol, you mad? Good.

You lack the ability to read?

To read what? I didn't notice you are the author, sorry, but its the only mistake I made.

This guy has severe problems with licensing.
I have no problem with licensing.

Of course, you have no problems.
Why did you pick proprietary license then? Every thing on your website mentions opensource, but I see no opensource in the software you make.
Why so, you lost faith or use opensource as decoy or unsure?
Oh opensource is soo good, but my product is closed source and tracking you down. WTF.

The website

Looks like a pizza, all things thrown together.
Its not tidy or professional - this already reduces amount of people want to try-out, not even mentioning to "buy"(if you follow the model)
Compare: rpgmakerweb d00t com (first link at google rpg maker)

0) Overall:
Expand the site size down, it looks very cluttered, like sandwitch. Look at how sourceforge looks nowadays.

1) "Maker 3D"
- lots of unprofessional sketches, that already reduce the quality to schoolarship pizza-level. Contact some people at deviantart for example, maybe some will be happy to contribute or draw
- player too small size, too low quality by default, placed somewhere at strange place. Why not place it in the middle of "features" category?
- use better fonts "create your own RPG its like magic", maybe use letter-style "written" elegant font.
- I would completely wipe all marketing BS. It looks like sh!t from '90. Look how facebook, sourceforge, habrahabr are designed, the thing must be attractive itself and not forcefully attract people with stupid claims. Look how coca-cola is sold - in fact it is the most stupid "product" in the world, water+sugar+worm powder+coffein, it sells almost completely because of efficient ads. If something looks professional by itself and proves to be professional, people will be attracted by themself and maybe deside on purchase or donation.
- Unreal editor is provided free nowadays, garry mod for minimal price too. You have quite a concurrence, even people with 9$ won't pay it. The public that stays are mostly opensource guys, since you write opensource and linux everywhere. Ok, but then they read your "licensing agreement"(actually there are no agreement, just "I will track you" and "everything is protected" and "no warranty") barely anyone will buy it. Ok and when they see how much resources it eats, how poor its organized internally for its goal (you are claiming its RPGMaker, not RPG sandbox)... how much have you sold by the way?
- Do you actually need "Maker" section at all?? Consider merge with features, or write small stylish summary with integration to "whats happening". The starting page is the most responsible page for first reaction!

2) Features
- Replace the BIG IMAGES with resolution reduced and optimized "thumbnails", on-click provide BIG images. Images load very slow (18mbit connection).
- Remove lots of separation lines.. or make them elegant. Headings definately need other color(gold?) and better font.
- Remove the stupid table at the end, seriously it looks like "infomercial" BS on tv. So much pluses and china garbage for 100$ in the end. I think a lot of europeans, perhaps americans already have this stereotype association and every time they see that they will just associate it with a lie. And this thing "Maker3D is the only true 3D RPG creator software." directly pisses me off.

3) Compatibility
- Rename to "Requirements"
- Needs complete redesign. It looks like prose, why not put overall short summary for overlook (with some stars ** pointing to the end) and more detailed categorized compatibility.

4) Download
- Nothing to say here, actually pretty ok, except I completely dislike your proprietary approach.
- People WILL pay 100$ IF the software proves that value. If they have no money they will pirate it. Face it, reality time. No place for your little software for even 1$. Im sorry.
- Go opensource: either open core (which is still crap, look at oracle vs libreoffice), or create completely open versions with bug tracker, allowing people to request feature and collect the required sum(assigned x money, needed y money, goal reached - implementing). This will even allow OTHER developers to work on your project. Look how Ardor is working. Opensource method is supreme to furher listed freeware, but you should make sure no one will WANT to fork(Im not talking about prevention or blockade here, Im talking about people do not wanting to leave at all). See ubuntu vs linux mint case.
- Or go freeware: offer the only FREE version, completely working. Make forum. Make presence in social networks. Make your wishes and required n thousands of dollars to finish them votable, discussable by users. Make people donate for feature and then implement it, leveling up the software. The positive thing about your "RPG maker" is thats a tool - and as such has end-less development possibilities, unlike a ready game(although mods rule).

4) Community.
- complete and utter fail. You need a forum. At LEAST to make people exchange things,report problems and give positive drive. At best, it will be used as engine for new ideas, new minds and new productive approaches. The two polls are unneeded and can be easily replaced by TWO single posts in the forum!

5) That "Back" key
completely useless, browser has back key. Because I land on some site I dont even understand(except with google help).

The demo reaches 20 fps (30 fps without composite)
30 fps is far enough for a very real-time RPG maker like this, i think.

Hell no. We both know this is BS. Why would student-looking editor mode consume SO MUCH resources. You understand that gtx260(or HD57xx and up) is a freaking supercomputer in the box? This thing can run HL2 at maximum details at more than 90 fps. You are further reducing amount of "purchasers" or "supporters"/"subscribers" by asking for high-end card. Running mediocre software. This is bad.

Every time I open the editor my card starts draining 160 Watts out of the outlet. And at the same time, nothing big happens in edit mode. If the edit would be completely interactive(like garry mod) it would be ok. But still 20 fps is huge technical problem. Do you actually use LOD and frustrum cut? I cant say, because your code is... closed.

Also, I had issues with the editor itself. It does not feel WYSIWYG actually. You do need help instructions and you do need to work on usability and document the work flow for the users.

How much would I pay for it? Well, if I land in that very specific and very limited cake cut of users you talk to with your "product"**, and if I would need it for my future children, I would pay 40$, provided that its usable. In current state I dislike even the demo. If you manage to gather 200,000x40$ you can get something, no? Still better than 5(or how much?)x9$. I acknowledge you already coded huge part of project, true, but no one buy raw engine! People buy cars!

** "s are not cause your software is bad, but cause software is information and information cannot be a product. Information CARRIER can be a product, CODING can be a product, but information never. Is bird singing - a product? No, but bird or mp3 player playing it are.

[Geri]

Wow you have written a very long reply, but i try to answeer to everything you mentioned.

,,Of course, you have no problems. Why did you pick proprietary license then? Every thing on your website mentions opensource, but I see no opensource in the software you make. Why so, you lost faith or use opensource as decoy or unsure? Oh opensource is soo good, but my product is closed source and tracking you down. WTF.''


I like linux, and i like opensource. I am also contributed source codes. Also, i created some opensource modules. I also supported opensource project back then with source codes... and sometimes i gived them a little advertisements...

But all my software is proprietary. Why not? I have the freedom to write my software with any license.

(I think linux community should be much more friendly with proprietary softwares, if someone creates a really goot software, he would be fool if he would share it for free instead of selling it. I dont know why linuxers, if they see a native linux program, why they start to cry for its source? They should be happy becouse they see something what is actually ported to linux.)


Go opensource
no

Or go freeware
no

You need a forum.
I know, its alreday upcoming.

The website - Looks like a pizza
Look how facebook, sourceforge, habrahabr are designed
...etc...
I dont know, how my websites affects the working of nouveau... However, i am sometimes touching them and making them prettyer. I think its appropriate atm, my users like it.

That "Back" key
why you are writing poems from my webpage aniway?

lots of unprofessional sketches .... Contact some people at deviantart ...

Sure. I am now planning to create a good logo for it, and cool opening screens, etc...

- player too small size, too low quality by default
its far enough, this tool is not meant to create such style.

licensing agreement
Should i write 700 page long impenetrable distorted novel? That would make you to feel better?

placed somewhere at strange place
In editor box, if you select test-map, it places you on the middle of the screen. If you play a game, the connection of the maps created by the teleport command, so the game creator dude will select where your hero appears on the map.

Why would student-looking editor mode consume SO MUCH resources.
I dont know what is a student-looking editor, but the Maker consumes so much resources becouse the speed was sacraficed in the name of existence. Its able to run usable on a middleclass graphics card, so its not a problem. Remember FF8's 3d battle system back then? It was runned on the play station with 7 fps. Why FF8 consume SO MUCH resources? Becouse if they would optimise it better, the game probably still not would be released due to the brutal amout of code. So why Maker condumes so much resources? Its not! Maker3D runs playable on a middle class graphics card, think on it!

People buy cars!
omg, for 9 euro? cars are so cheap now? :P

5
please dont underestimate me so mutch

Unreal editor is provided free nowadays, garry mod for minimal price too. You have quite a concurrence, even people with 9$ won't pay it. .... No place for your little software for even 1$. Im sorry. ....
If you found a better software: use that. This is free market. My Maker3D is probably not meant for you. There is a maker community who using makers and creates stuffs with makers. The users of this Maker3d using it becouse they *need* it. They need a software what i can only ship to them. You got illusions if you think that you will find other usable 3d software to create your rpg-s with it. This is an rpg Maker, not just an engine. The two thing is not comparable in this way. If you use unreal editor or other softwares like this, you will even create and animate your heroes for years... and you got then a walking character in a cube.3ds level. And the work 90%-s is still in front of you. My Maker is different, becouse it is a maker, Maker3D is meant to persons who are not familiar in computer sciences, they are mostly young arts who just want to create they RPG. 99% of the peoples are not in the IT business. They may also want to create they RPG games, and i give them a chance to do it. You know the another company you have linked, also tryed to make a 3d rpg creator. And a lot of other peoples also tryed to do 3d rpg making softwares: there was even opensource ones who tryed it, as you probably alreday saw in the google. But all of they was unsuccesfull. For example the competitive company you have mentioned, created a 3d maker back then 6-7 years before, and they design was so bad, they recalled it after 2 months from the market. Becouse it was for ps2 and the users was not even able to share they own work becouse it req.ed memory card and the ps2 cant even run copyed disks officially. This was a big mistake from them. They was not able to port the software to pc, they simply quit from 3d makers, and continued to develop they 2d makers. Wich i found very impressive, but there is 2011, 3d is a musthave in a such products. .... I have watched webpages in the scool and there was an rpg fangirl who just browsed internet and somehow founded my Maker3D on the net and then she sayd to me: look what an awesome stuff, i always wanted a simply 3d rpg creator stuff for windowzz, wich is really works, looks cool. And i was: hehe this was made by me. And after she was found out that really i am the creator, she hugged and kissed me, then she buyd choclets for me, and i gived her a gratis version. Sure, this is how peoples act when they see a bad software.

And how this is connects with nouveau? Not at all.

[monraaf]

I think linux community should be much more friendly with proprietary softwares, (...) They should be happy becouse they see something what is actually ported to linux.)

Perhaps. But I don't think GNU/Linux needs software that does a phone home and is tracking you. At least that's not the kind of software that I'm waiting for.

And who says your proprietary software doesn't do a lot more? Can I still safely do my online banking after having run your software? I don't know, and I'm not willing to take that risk. This is a real problem with some proprietary software, especially when it comes from unknown sources.

Since you're not disputing these claims I assume they are true.

Oh opensource is soo good, but my product is closed source and tracking you down. WTF.

This guy has severe problems with licensing. He advocates linux, tons of free software, but his own creation is one of the worst proprietary I ever saw (phoning home and tracking included)

[Geri]

Sure, it walks out from your computer at night, and kill your kittens.

[crazycheese]

Wow you have written a very long reply, but i try to answeer to everything you mentioned.
Thats not reply, but rather my opinion, which maybe gives you bonus ideas. For free and opensource - Im not claiming them to me.

I like linux, and i like opensource.
You don't like opensource. End.

But all my software is proprietary. Why not? I have the freedom to write my software with any license.
Because if I like meat steaks, I acknowledge cow kill. Freedom always comes with responsibility, conclusions and reactions. If you prefer to set proprietary right on information, get ready for piracy, malware/antivirus wars and all that RIAA/MPAA bs, intellectual bs, patent bs, that makes linux have second hand graphics drivers, because companies cant publish, will not publish or provide blobs that break and deviate the ecosystem. Because if you combine good open guy with hideous selfish one, their teamwork will 99,5% of time fckup due to hideous selfishness. And best part, he won't even acknowledge it - ie do first step for correction. Hear recent news with Japan goverment bs-ting people right from the start? Yeah, enjoy your steak.

(I think linux community should be much more friendly with proprietary softwares, if someone creates a really goot software, he would be fool if he would share it for free instead of selling it. I dont know why linuxers, if they see a native linux program, why they start to cry for its source? They should be happy becouse they see something what is actually ported to linux.)

Hell no, no friendliness, just some tolerance. Why? Because glass-open people don't happen to hold knife in the hand hidden nor are capable to lie. Being open is an advantage, going from open to close is disadvantage. Or is lying and concealing seen as advantageous?
Ok, advantages of open source:
- Security (malware-like actions are seen in the source)
- Security (anyone can access the source code, not just specific circle)
- Security (ability to modification and adaption on different environiments, incl. bug tracking/squishing and optimization)
-.. yes, security (own ego or life cases will not hinder the project advancement as long as this advancement is needed)
I too, did small modification, an adaptation of existing open source mod to another opensource mod so they work together. The money I received for it was called my own desire and I received enough to finish the job. After that I decided to publish my results as opensource as well, so people can use it and not waste time like I did. Indeed some time later, my mod was integrated and I was mentioned in thanks. Now I run that final mod which has my modification inside. We all profited. Now replace we with corporations and I with corporation and you will get the idea in global scale.

But I like how you sing, why don't you say windows users should be happy to see something is ported to windows from linux?

if someone creates a really goot software, he would be fool if he would share it for free instead of selling it.

Creating itself is a product, its a process of energy conversion. You dont sell information like apples, because information on how to seed apples is not a product, but a structure. It won't become less if you copy it, it will become less if you do not copy it or start to forget it.

...etc...
I dont know, how my websites affects the working of nouveau... However, i am sometimes touching them and making them prettyer. I think its appropriate atm, my users like it.
I thought there was at least one user that disagreed, but yeah, lets just accept the current situation already, since worthless yes-mans contribute to your proprietary ego more than criticizing, destabilizing and bringing new ideas no-mans.

why you are writing poems from my webpage aniway?

I guess if I would start charging you 140$/hr for consultation poems you would look differently, but I'll just pass. This was a demo.

Sure. I am now planning to create a good logo for it, and cool opening screens, etc...
Good I moved something. Continue and your proprietary app will not eat 150 watt someday just for moving things around.

- player too small size, too low quality by default
its far enough, this tool is not meant to create such style.

I mean youtube-player on website, not player character in your proprietary blob.

licensing agreement
Should i write 700 page long impenetrable distorted novel? That would make you to feel better?

If I wanted 700 page novel, I would ask /dev/urandom. License at least sets author and buyer rights apart. Or can I make a copy your program and publish it as mine with my name etc?

I dont know what is a student-looking editor, but the Maker consumes so much resources becouse the speed was sacraficed in the name of existence. Its able to run usable on a middleclass graphics card, so its not a problem. Remember FF8's 3d battle system back then? It was runned on the play station with 7 fps. Why FF8 consume SO MUCH resources? Becouse if they would optimise it better, the game probably still not would be released due to the brutal amout of code. So why Maker condumes so much resources? Its not! Maker3D runs playable on a middle class graphics card, think on it!
Sweet excuse! There is hardware complex, with each part able to produce specific amount of information flow and there is data flow for processing. The process to optimize the data flow - reduce it, remove bottlenecks, reshape it, optimize it - is called profiling. Your software really needs profiling. But cause you keep it up to yourself (to attract fans, girls etc), you are the only person able to do it. So Im just suggesting for improvement point, not attacking your ego etc. You can safely ignore,.. this is demo version of novel.

People buy cars!
omg, for 9 euro? cars are so cheap now? :P
Yes, your engine is that cheap. :P
Ok, it is too brutal, sorry mate. But Im really on the improving and not on using psychological aikido to hurt anyone.

please dont underestimate me so mutch

Ok sorry, it was just a rough number. Replace it with your variable value which you keep chmod 000 to me, wont change situation.

The users of this maker using it becouse they *need* it. They need a software what i can only ship to them. You got illusions if you think that you will find other usable 3d software to create your rpg-s with it. This is an rpg Maker, not just an engine. The two thing is not comparable in this way. If you use unreal editor or other softwares like this, you will even create and animate your heroes for years... and you got then a walking character in a cube.3ds level.
How happen you are wrong and we have tons of teenage garage-originating machinimas over youtube, based on garry mod etc? I did not check other rpg-makers, nor Im rpg-making fun. You suggested the software which chewed on gtx260 like a toy and indeed you were right. I just didn't know you were also the author, for which I excused me already. Now how you handle the information I provided is only up to you, my trial demo period is over now, you cannot save, I wish you luck but I will track your copy of my information in your brain down.

[Geri]

I am understand that some gpl fans love they favorit ideology, but this software will never become opensource. This does not means that i am ignoring hints and suggestions. Thank you for your lot typing to share your oppinion.

I am readed your last reply, and i found some parts very funny and laughed on it. If you would found my software bad, you would not write so much from it :P But no, i dont want to repeat myself, i think i answered everything, i will not change my mind, you also know this.

and thankyou, i am not needing your consultation poems servie

[crazycheese]

I am understand that some gpl fans love they favorit ideology, but this software will never become opensource. This does not means that i am ignoring hints and suggestions. Thank you for your lot typing to share your oppinion.

I am readed your last reply, and i found some parts very funny and laughed on it. If you would found my software bad, you would not write so much from it :P But no, i dont want to repeat myself, i think i answered everything, i will not change my mind, you also know this.

and thankyou, i am not needing your consultation poems servie

Ok, no problem. Yes I do write the "novel" to suggest some eye striking problems which goal is to make your software better. Opensourcing was by far not the most important one. I wish you good luck with your project.