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Thread: Ubuntu 14.10 Is Codenamed The Utopic Unicorn

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynical View Post
    You've echoed many of my thoughts in your post but one thing that stands out to me in particular is this point. When I think about it, even though I dislike some of the decisions of major projects in the Linux community and criticize them for it (Gnome, KDE, openSUSE, Fedora, and Unity as well), I tend to do it once and move on. I don't go into every news article on Gnome and repeat all the things I hate about it that have nothing to do with the topic itself. Or quote the positive things people say and troll them. I don't think I will ever understand the motivation to attack something that is not negative to you in any way, but maybe that is a result of how I perceive the Linux ecosystem. Even if I choose not to use Gnome, I like some of the ideas that come out of the project and want them to be adopted in my desktop. I don't view the entire Gnome project as a diversion of scarce resources that MY project of choice could benefit from.

    I think engaging with dee is a waste of time, but I enjoyed reading your post so thank you. I only wish more people in the Linux community were as accepting and positive about projects doing things differently. I think it would make a much better impression on new users and lead to a better desktop experience for everyone.
    I completely agree with you and do the same, if I dont like something I will criticize it once and that is it, I wont continuously incite arguments on every news out there that is related to my object of dislike. Some people make a sport out of it.

    Linux needs variety and new ideas to evolve faster and gain an upper hand over other operating systems, otherwise it will end up behind even Windows in terms of "new", most users want eye candy and extra functionality, they want modern look and design and usability that makes Linux superior to other operating systems, not only technically but visually too. Which is why I like what Canonical is trying to do, good things will come out of it for all, one way or the other, Wayland is the best example, Canonical's development of Mir greatly increased the speed of Wayland development. Even if Mir fails it will still be the factor that brought Wayland to Linux users faster. Competition is good for all.

    Gnome is a good example of how initial hate for it (I mean Gnome 3) turned into a mostly positive attitude after they included community suggestions and new ideas in the design of future versions, 3.12 looks quite promising. New and radical turns arent that bad as long as developers listen to community feedback and implement what was lacking in the initial design. Unity went through similar phases, initially disliked or hated by many, it evolved in a quite usable desktop for most people, I find dash to be extremely useful to search for my local content, everything is at my fingertips in a few seconds and the UI is great once one gets used to it. Of course some people do not like it and they are free to do so.

    But I digress, my point was that new ideas, even radical ones like Mir are vital in keeping Linux fresh and modern, competition makes developers think harder and come up with new solutions and design. Thinking in camp terms, us against them is never good because Linux development is intertwined and all benefit directly or indirectly when someone makes something good. I remember how people argued in the past about which desktop environment is better, Gnome or KDE, or rpm vs deb, or Debian vs Suse and the like.

    And yes engaging with Dee is a waste of time, he proved that in his reply to me and others, I will no longer reply to his posts.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    But this goes into circular argument territory. A post is made, someone mentions something a bit negative, someone assumes that person has malicious intent and calls them out, and then the non-Ubuntu-user camp has to repeat the arguments that were indeed discussed elsewhere.

    Aside from refraining from calling out, I don't see a way out of this. I'm pretty sure that the calling out by itself is not going to make any difference, either.
    I read these forums for a while before registering and I kept seeing the same people who religiously criticize Canonical and Ubuntu on these forums. They are the issue, other people who come by with constructive criticism are no problem at all and I do not believe anyone called them out, but these people that come all the time with the same attitude and same rhetoric, they are being called out. Unless their criticism is constructive I plan on ignoring their posts. It is a free forum and they are free to post whatever they want to post, but I am also free to ignore them, problem solved.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    Linux needs variety and new ideas to evolve faster and gain an upper hand over other operating systems, otherwise it will end up behind even Windows in terms of "new", most users want eye candy and extra functionality, they want modern look and design and usability that makes Linux superior to other operating systems, not only technically but visually too.
    I'm not sure I agree with the "visually" part. It was true up until blurred transparency became possible. But now I don't see where progress can go from here, aside from making 3D UIs. We can do pretty much anything we want with 2D UIs now, and most of it was already done. Now it all comes down to individual tastes more than anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    Which is why I like what Canonical is trying to do, good things will come out of it for all, one way or the other, Wayland is the best example, Canonical's development of Mir greatly increased the speed of Wayland development. Even if Mir fails it will still be the factor that brought Wayland to Linux users faster. Competition is good for all.
    That statement is completely false, as noted several times elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    Gnome is a good example of how initial hate for it (I mean Gnome 3) turned into a mostly positive attitude after they included community suggestions and new ideas in the design of future versions, 3.12 looks quite promising. New and radical turns arent that bad as long as developers listen to community feedback and implement what was lacking in the initial design. Unity went through similar phases, initially disliked or hated by many, it evolved in a quite usable desktop for most people, I find dash to be extremely useful to search for my local content, everything is at my fingertips in a few seconds and the UI is great once one gets used to it. Of course some people do not like it and they are free to do so.
    Yes, like I said, it's important to listen to the community. But why do you think it was hated at first? Because the community wasn't asked about it. So this process makes no sense to me why impose something on the community that they don't like first, and only then ask about how to fix it, after the good name of the project was already ruined? Why not just develop it all in the open and ask for advice from the get-go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    I read these forums for a while before registering and I kept seeing the same people who religiously criticize Canonical and Ubuntu on these forums. They are the issue, other people who come by with constructive criticism are no problem at all and I do not believe anyone called them out, but these people that come all the time with the same attitude and same rhetoric, they are being called out. Unless their criticism is constructive I plan on ignoring their posts. It is a free forum and they are free to post whatever they want to post, but I am also free to ignore them, problem solved.
    Ignore lists exist for a reason. So do use them, and you'll spare everyone lengthy arguments like this one.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Yes, like I said, it's important to listen to the community. But why do you think it was hated at first? Because the community wasn't asked about it. So this process makes no sense to me why impose something on the community that they don't like first, and only then ask about how to fix it, after the good name of the project was already ruined? Why not just develop it all in the open and ask for advice from the get-go?
    That's not why I hated it when it was released. Why should they ask me about it? They can design whatever they want, it's their time. I didn't like the fact that it was buggy and slow on release, but what desktop environment isn't? People complained about KDE 4.0 and Gnome 3.0 just the same, and both were considered to be imposed on their users. The reality is that if you sit there and try to collect input from everyone you'll never actually get around to producing anything. It's better to put something out there and get feedback on what works and what doesn't, and then improve it according to that feedback.

    The same exact thing is about to happen with Unity 8. It's going to be completely new and fresh, lacking in features and full of bugs. I completely expect trolls to be out in force when its released, talking about what a failure it is and how it will never get anywhere. Then, just like Unity 7, improvements will be made, features added, bugs fixed, and the complaints will die down. It's so predictable that it's almost sad to watch these people go through the motions of it.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cynical View Post
    That's not why I hated it when it was released. Why should they ask me about it? They can design whatever they want, it's their time. I didn't like the fact that it was buggy and slow on release, but what desktop environment isn't? People complained about KDE 4.0 and Gnome 3.0 just the same, and both were considered to be imposed on their users. The reality is that if you sit there and try to collect input from everyone you'll never actually get around to producing anything. It's better to put something out there and get feedback on what works and what doesn't, and then improve it according to that feedback.

    The same exact thing is about to happen with Unity 8. It's going to be completely new and fresh, lacking in features and full of bugs. I completely expect trolls to be out in force when its released, talking about what a failure it is and how it will never get anywhere. Then, just like Unity 7, improvements will be made, features added, bugs fixed, and the complaints will die down. It's so predictable that it's almost sad to watch these people go through the motions of it.
    Why sit there? Produce things and while producing them collect the input, then while producing them improve it according to the feedback, only then release it. Yes, it did happen with KDE SC 4, but the developers are now learning from their mistakes and are determined to make KF5 good at launch. So far they seem to be doing pretty well.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    Linux needs variety
    Linux is full of variety, maybe get out of oh so awesome ubuntu world and see it yourself.

    and gain an upper hand over other operating systems, otherwise it will end up behind even Windows in terms of "new", most users want eye candy and extra functionality, they want modern look and design and usability that makes Linux superior to other operating systems, not only technically but visually too. Which is why I like what Canonical is trying to do, good things will come out of it for all, one way or the other, Wayland is the best example, Canonical's development of Mir greatly increased the speed of Wayland development. Even if Mir fails it will still be the factor that brought Wayland to Linux users faster. Competition is good for all.
    MIR has nothing to do with wayland beeing developed faster. And talking about competition, i bet you are using words that came from Marks mouth. Competition is Microsoft, Apple. If Canonical treats every other linux distirubution or project as competition then why on Earth they are using competition code? MIR, bazaar, unity is not competition - it's FRAGMENTATION.

    But I digress, my point was that new ideas, even radical ones like Mir are vital in keeping Linux fresh and modern, competition makes developers think harder and come up with new solutions and design. Thinking in camp terms, us against them is never good because Linux development is intertwined and all benefit directly or indirectly when someone makes something good. I remember how people argued in the past about which desktop environment is better, Gnome or KDE, or rpm vs deb, or Debian vs Suse and the like.
    What's radical about MIR? Saying that they will support wayland and after that they come up with prealpha MIR and say wayland is bad by design? Mind you, wayland was years ahead when MIR came out, but i guess you don't care.
    Last edited by phoen1x; 04-26-2014 at 06:36 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus View Post
    Which is why I like what Canonical is trying to do, good things will come out of it for all, one way or the other, Wayland is the best example, Canonical's development of Mir greatly increased the speed of Wayland development. Even if Mir fails it will still be the factor that brought Wayland to Linux users faster. Competition is good for all.
    Ok, I wasn't going to bother with this thread anymore but I just can't let this pass...

    This is entirely false. Pure hogwash. There is no evidence that the development of Mir would have caused any kind of "increased speed" in Wayland development. That's an entirely unsubstantiated claim. If anything, it's the exact opposite... if Canonical had put their resources into contributing to Wayland development (like they promised they would do back in 2010), Wayland would have been developed much faster.

    What you're perceiving as "increased speed in Wayland development" is just that, perception. Wayland has been steadily developed for several years, it's just that earlier a large part of that work was the boring, invisible groundwork with no flashy updates, in the graphics stack and elsewhere. This was necessary to make a modern graphics system possible in the first place (Mir wouldn't be possible without it either). Once that work was done, they entered into a much more user-visible phase. That's also when Mir came along, piggybacking on all that groundwork done earlier... and this is what leads to the perception that Wayland "sped up" - it simply entered a different phase in development, and Mir "coincided" with that...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    You fail at logic, oh brave Internet Warrior.

    The positive claim made by the other party was (paraphrased) "many people dislike the direction of Canonical". This is a claim that is demonstrably true: even on this forum, there are many people who dislike the direction of Canonical. Boom, statement validated.

    You asked for numerical evidence to support a specific claim, when no specific claim was made.

    Ok. How many toaster ovens that work by shoving a huge black dildo up your ass and jumping up and down have you tried? Oh, there's none out there? Well, in that case you can't prove that they're a bad idea... so obviously they're going to be a huge success and everyone is going to want one. In fact, I can just hear the footsteps of all the millions of people running to dump their old electric toaster ovens and start demanding for these new assrape-powered ovens. Because logic!
    If you are going to argue based on logic, it is best not to use straw men and anecdotes to support your case brave internet warrior. What little numerical evidence exists for distribution usage among the general populace (like the steam survey, which frustrating as it is, is a statistically valid sampling of the steam user base) show that ubuntu versions are quite widely used at least on linux gaming setups.

    In no logical universe does a "toaster ovens that work by shoving a huge black dildo up your ass and jumping up and down" equate to an OS with unified code base across platforms.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by allenmaher View Post
    If you are going to argue based on logic, it is best not to use straw men and anecdotes to support your case brave internet warrior. What little numerical evidence exists for distribution usage among the general populace (like the steam survey, which frustrating as it is, is a statistically valid sampling of the steam user base) show that ubuntu versions are quite widely used at least on linux gaming setups.
    I'm going to give you a homework assignment to think hard about why none of what you just said had any relevance to the post you quoted. Show your work.

    In no logical universe does a "toaster ovens that work by shoving a huge black dildo up your ass and jumping up and down" equate to an OS with unified code base across platforms.
    For bonus points, you can also look up the terms "analogy" and "hyperbole", explain what they mean and how they are used as rhetorical devices.

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