The GNOME Foundation Is Running Short On Money

[fanATic]

WIMP means "windows, icons, menus, pointer". GNOME has all of those, so what is your point here? You keep repeating it is not usable or practical without any real argument. Seriously makes me question if you have ever even used it. And yes, extensions, they exist, which makes your and rest of GNOME haters arguments even more invalid. One direct quote from GNOME devs saying it is first and foremost aimed at touchscreens would also be constructive instead of constant stream of bullshit.

Emphasis is on mouse use. Using mouse in GNOME 3 is not practical, to much traveling with mouse from one corner (Dash) to other (Categories or whatever it's called), this is not mouse friendly environment from ergonomic (carpal thunnel...) and every other point of view except touch interfaces in mind for netbook, tablet and other consumer crap, you name it. On left is Dash with favourite applications and on right you have categories, like Accessories, Education, Games etc.
Now tell me that this is optimal UI layout for desktop use, not. With default GNOME 3 settings I have constant struggle with desktop, alt-tab switching and this is problem when you have many open windows/applications.
Users should have open possibilites between mouse and keyboard selection for certain tasks like it is on Xfce, LXDE, KDE and was on GNOME 2. Sometimes with alt-tab and sometimes with mouse, give desktop users a choice. In GNOME 3 you don't have it (you have it, but it is retarded, it's hard to explain it by words, video example worth more than thousand pictures), of course I talk about default configuration, no extensions.
GNOME 3 is not for grandpa, grandma and average Joe, by this I don't underestimate people, but I know how non-adept users have problems with some changes in UI from previous iterations or even if you rearrange desktop icons to other places. Hell, MS Office users was and still are furious toward ribbons.
UI for human interaction is serious and complex business, Apple and Microsoft knows how serious it is.

Just look at this stupidity, no "logout" button? Year of the linux desktop? Nice joke. Not with this kind of ?uckery:

https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/30783/how-do-i-enable-the-logout-option-in-gnome-shell/

Is very simple use a simple gnome extensions... https://extensions.gnome.org/extensi...e-status-menu/

:rofl

Are you kidding me? For essential function you need to install extension, or use dconf-editor, or terminal, workarounds for friggin "logout" option ? zOMG, wow, just wow. Never go full retard.

GNU/Linux, it's all about choice, right? GTFO and close the door. Don't screw people and rub their noses with ?uckery. Instead throwing money on OWP and other cultural marxist feminist leftard and libtard crap, engage experts on UI field, etc. if you know what I mean. Even monkeyboy Ballmer knows it, developers, developers, developers, addition - R&D.

For some users removing minimize and maximize buttons were big deal, including lack of shut down button (activated with alt key, so no big problem) not for me. I maximize windows with double click around area of window title bar (depends on circumstances), and minimize was middle click on window title bar, now it switches between open windows, no problem with that but it is problem if you don't have some kind of taskbar/panel, but that's just me. I know, I am not representative sample, don't care. Anyway, 1.58% usage desktop OS share speak for itself, good luck with that.
If i want clean desktop, I mean realy clean dekstop, I could install OpenBox instead something what must be full DE and not half-baked DE software, reinventing the wheel where it's not necessary. Btw. with vanilla KDE 4 I don't need many tweaks like for vanilla GNOME 3, install & play and this is coming from GNOME fanboy so to speak.
Still I don't see GNOME 3 in FreeBSD but KDE 4 and Xfce are on full throttle but that is another story.

I like clean UI design in GNOME 2/3 but GNOME devs sometimes exaggerate with their OCD's regarding clean UI and treat users like idiots. Note to GNOME devs: "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool".

Fortunetaly for their and users sake, GNOME devs pulled head out of their assess and brought back "Classic mode".

One direct quote from GNOME devs saying it is first and foremost aimed at touchscreens would also be constructive instead of constant stream of bullshit.

https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/HIG/

Resources and Planning

Relevant art:
iOS HIG
Android Design
Patternry
Nokia N9 UX Guidelines

Yes, it is about "relevant art" (not so, iOS HIG), but why mobile OS's? 24" 16:10 monitor, midi (Define Mini) tower under my desk are not friggin mobile phone and tablet for fsck sake.

One direct quote from GNOME devs saying it is first and foremost aimed at touchscreens would also be constructive instead of constant stream of bullshit.

It is obvious, like Metro UI in Windows 8/8.1 and believe it or not Windows Server 2012. Metro is desktop-tablet-phone compromise and I understand reasons behind it, but Microsoft made it better than GNOME folks in some aspects, at least they didn't destroy desktop, you can put stuff on desktop and there is still Taskbar with useful features, like progress bar and Windows Taskbar Previews (KDE smooth task) which come in handy for quick preview.



It screams that it is for touch use, not for desktop.

That being said, keep up the good fight against TheBlackCat.

I wouldn't call it a fight, it is to harsh word.

[fanATic]

What problem are we talking about now? This thread is so far off track it's not even funny anymore. No one is saying discrimination doesn't exist but all the vitriol is based off the fact Gnome took donation money and hired women who, it would appear, are not even developers. This is the move of a educational charity not a linux desktop.

This is the problem with the tech industry in a nutshell now. Everyone wants a piece, everyone thinks they belong no matter what their irrelevant skillset it. All the people who sat in their room year after year coding away LONG before it was trendy to be a "nerd" has EARNED their spot in this profession. If only for the sole fact they are completely qualified if not overqualified for the job they get (sadly I usually have to be the latter in the last few years)

All these people crying "white male privilege" need to understand this basic fact. Putting in the time, getting the degree (not diploma) and/or having years of professional relevant experience makes you qualified. You want to know what privilege is? What entitlement is? It's expecting a spot among the qualified people just because you think you deserve it or because you perceive some kind of bullshit injustice of why your "discriminated" against. Hell for all the women bitching (usually irrelevant "tech" bloggers) about how there aren't enough women in tech, why in hell do they not get off their asses themselves and start doing actual development. Nothing is stopping them. I would have killed for something like the internet and it's near unlimited resources when I started.

I mean ffs if you want to look at this from a computer science angle is there even such a thing as a "feminine bubble sort" or "transgender red black tree" as if the person coding it matters? Computers do not care, period, programming is a strictly intellectual pursuit.

Well said.

[daedaluz]

Emphasis is on mouse use. Using mouse in GNOME 3 is not practical, to much traveling with mouse from one corner (Dash) to other (Categories or whatever it's called), this is not mouse friendly environment from ergonomic (carpal thunnel...) and every other point of view except touch interfaces in mind for netbook, tablet and other consumer crap, you name it. On left is Dash with favourite applications and on right you have categories, like Accessories, Education, Games etc.
Now tell me that this is optimal UI layout for desktop use, not. With default GNOME 3 settings I have constant struggle with desktop, alt-tab switching and this is problem when you have many open windows/applications.
Users should have open possibilites between mouse and keyboard selection for certain tasks like it is on Xfce, LXDE, KDE and was on GNOME 2. Sometimes with alt-tab and sometimes with mouse, give desktop users a choice. In GNOME 3 you don't have it (you have it, but it is retarded, it's hard to explain it by words, video example worth more than thousand pictures), of course I talk about default configuration, no extensions.

I disagree here twofold. Alt-tabing is better than elsewhere because it divides between applications and different windows of applications. Mouse navigation to activities view and getting windows or new applications open there is also better, because you don't have to micronavigate like you need to in windows-like menus. Just flick to general direction and go. Even better with trackball which I use. And on top of all that comes superior keyboard functionality, unmatched by any system. I rarely even touch my trackball. And yes there is choice between doing things with mouse or keyboard. Only thing you can't do with mouse is alt-tabing. Show me a system where you can do that with mouse. You complain about how difficult it is with multiple windows? Go open 30 pdf's in normal task-bar based desktop. Good luck finding the correct one from that mess!

Just look at this stupidity, no "logout" button? Year of the linux desktop? Nice joke. Not with this kind of ?uckery: Are you kidding me? For essential function you need to install extension, or use dconf-editor, or terminal, workarounds for friggin "logout" option ? zOMG, wow, just wow. Never go full retard.

No you don't, if you actually have more than one user accounts. Why else would you logout instead of locking screen? And yes if you really really need it it takes one command to enable.

GNU/Linux, it's all about choice, right? GTFO and close the door. Don't screw people and rub their noses with ?uckery. Instead throwing money on OWP and other cultural marxist feminist leftard and libtard crap, engage experts on UI field, etc. if you know what I mean. Even monkeyboy Ballmer knows it, developers, developers, developers, addition - R&D.

I'm rather sure GNOME project has spent more on UI research with real experts via RedHat than competition. My guesstimate for amount of money KDE e.V. has spent is $0 because it's a horrible piece of shit. Right now there are some poor souls in Visual Group slaving at it for free at it because everyone knows default KDE sucks donkey dicks. And even they face resistance from people like Martin who think there is absolutely nothing wrong.

For some users removing minimize and maximize buttons were big deal, including lack of shut down button (activated with alt key, so no big problem) not for me. I maximize windows with double click around area of window title bar (depends on circumstances), and minimize was middle click on window title bar, now it switches between open windows, no problem with that but it is problem if you don't have some kind of taskbar/panel, but that's just me. I know, I am not representative sample, don't care. Anyway, 1.58% usage desktop OS share speak for itself, good luck with that.

Don't blame only GNOME for that lack of usage share. KDE, the only really viable alternative, has been in development for longer. It's still inferior to even Windows XP in many ways. IME support, default application menu design and font rendering pops in mind. GNOME2 failed its 10x10 goal so something had to be done.

If i want clean desktop, I mean realy clean dekstop, I could install OpenBox instead something what must be full DE and not half-baked DE software, reinventing the wheel where it's not necessary. Btw. with vanilla KDE 4 I don't need many tweaks like for vanilla GNOME 3, install & play and this is coming from GNOME fanboy so to speak.
Still I don't see GNOME 3 in FreeBSD but KDE 4 and Xfce are on full throttle but that is another story.

I need massive tweaking in KDE just to get IME working and even after all the efforts it is broken (fcitx which works slightly better than ibus works differently in Qt and GTK applications under KDE but even though it is not GNOME native it works better in GNOME by providing uniform entry... go figure..) and keyboard switching is restricted to two alternatives by keyboard shortcuts. Not to mention how GTK applications never appear right in KDE no matter how much effort. Speaking of being half-baked, KDE is the very definition of that. In GNOME, what you have and see, is guaranteed to work as excepted. After 7 years of being in dev, KDE still fails at searching which was the only thing they hyped with "semantic desktop" propaganda. Just google for "kde baloo" at their latest sorry attempt at fixing that after so many years. KDE is far from clean. It takes half an hour just to disable all the useless notifications, one KNotify linked application at a time, selected from dropdown menu, every single notification disabled individually.

I like clean UI design in GNOME 2/3 but GNOME devs sometimes exaggerate with their OCD's regarding clean UI and treat users like idiots. Note to GNOME devs: "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool". Fortunetaly for their and users sake, GNOME devs pulled head out of their assess and brought back "Classic mode".

Yes, there are two different officially supported ways to using GNOME. I fail to see how more choice is a problem.

Yes, it is about "relevant art" (not so, iOS HIG), but why mobile OS's? 24" 16:10 monitor, midi (Define Mini) tower under my desk are not friggin mobile phone and tablet for fsck sake.

Because they are clean intuitive designs. It has nothing to do with GNOME itself being a smartphone system. I'm using it on 24" monitor without problems and on 55" HTPC TV, no problems. Because it is easy as hell to use without mouse, that's why! Big screen, living room, no mouse! Ever! I don't even have mouse hooked on that machine, those just disappear in sofa pillows.

It is obvious, like Metro UI in Windows 8/8.1 and believe it or not Windows Server 2012. Metro is desktop-tablet-phone compromise and I understand reasons behind it, but Microsoft made it better than GNOME folks in some aspects, at least they didn't destroy desktop, you can put stuff on desktop and there is still Taskbar with useful features, like progress bar and Windows Taskbar Previews (KDE smooth task) which come in handy for quick preview.

Have you even used W8? It's abomination of two completely different paradigms overlaped over each other with overlaping functionality (like two control centers doing partially same things and two places for getting updates). GNOME is consistent. You click on that friendly looking start button in W8.1 and BLAMMO! GAME OVER! You are in that tiled tablet UI with no use and spend some time figuring out how the fuck you get out of there. Or in desktop you click on the Control Panel charm and BLAMMO again in Metro. Real Control Panel is hidden behind second mouse click on that "start menu". Kinda reminds me of KDE in openSUSE, where you have two System Settings, one taking you to KDE settings and the other to YaST, except even worse. GNOME is consistent, it has Settings and when you open settings it's always the same settings. You can't honestly even claim that Microsoft pulled off UI revamp better than GNOME. And if you want that taskbar, use Classic or just install the extensions. Takes max six mouse clicks total to get the panel and applications and places menus. Less than navigating to proper Windows Update.

It screams that it is for touch use, not for desktop.

You just can't find a single quote claiming it's for touch use, can you? Give up. Big friendly icons still don't mean it's for phones. Just like Emacs isn't.

[TheBlackCat]

(citation needed)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018839203698

"Both men and women were more likely to vote to hire a male job applicant than a female job applicant with an identical record. Similarly, both sexes reported that the male job applicant had done adequate teaching, research, and service experience compared to the female job applicant with an identical record. "

[fanATic]

Mouse navigation to activities view and getting windows or new applications open there is also better, because you don't have to micronavigate like you need to in windows-like menus.

I don't see how Activities in GNOME 3 is better than good old Applications, Places, System menus in GNOME 2.

Just flick to general direction and go

First flick to left, shitload of big icons appear, then go to right and choose category. I don't see this as improvement.

Go open 30 pdf's in normal task-bar based desktop. Good luck finding the correct one from that mess!

Group similar buttons on the taskbar as seen on Windows and KDE?

PDF viewer with tabs?

KDE activities?

Why else would you logout instead of locking screen?

Why not? Ah yes, one user account. In Debian is different.

Right now there are some poor souls in Visual Group slaving at it for free at it because everyone knows default KDE sucks donkey dicks. And even they face resistance from people like Martin who think there is absolutely nothing wrong.

Yes, visually vanilla KDE 4 is fugly as hell.

default application menu design

True, default Kicker is terrible, Lancelot is ok more or less, Classic is mess if you have many programs, than you have submenus all across the screen.

font rendering pops in mind

I like Xfce in that regard.

Not to mention how GTK applications never appear right in KDE no matter how much effort

Interesting, I allways had impression that is other way around. Qt apps appear more native like, across platforms (Windows, OS X etc.) unlike GTK+.

Try Transmission-GTK vs Transmission-Qt on Windows or OS X and tell me which version appear and behave more native.

Have you even used W8? It's abomination of two completely different paradigms overlaped over each other with overlaping functionality (like two control centers doing partially same things and two places for getting updates)

Yes I have, and I'm using it, because I can't run some programs virtually or in wine because of speed and other reasons. I agree, about how you said, different paradigms overlaped over each other, but it was Microsoft intention to have consistent UI across devices. But obviously they failed.

Or in desktop you click on the Control Panel charm and BLAMMO again in Metro

No, in charms, Windows 8.1, Control Panel menu brings you "real" Control Panel. Change PC Settings brings you Metro UI PC settings with some options from Control Panel.

Kinda reminds me of KDE in openSUSE, where you have two System Settings, one taking you to KDE settings and the other to YaST, except even worse.

It's OpenSUSE thing, nothing to do with KDE.

You just can't find a single quote claiming it's for touch use, can you? Give up. Big friendly icons still don't mean it's for phones. Just like Emacs isn't.

GNOME 3 Shell is designed with touch use in mind, hence big icons and other stuff I previously mentioned regarding Dash and Categories.
Emacs is not DE, OS, it is text editor.

[kigurai]

I don't see how Activities in GNOME 3 is better than good old Applications, Places, System menus in GNOME 2.

And I don't see how anyone could favour the latter. There is no objective truth in this.

First flick to left, shitload of big icons appear, then go to right and choose category. I don't see this as improvement.

It can be argued that application exploration is slightly harder in G3, since categories have (recently) been removed.
Launching the applications you use all the time (let's call them favourites) is an extreme improvement as it is simply a flick-and-click away.
For me it is miles better than trying to hit a 16x16 pixel icon in the top bar, as I frequently did in G2.
Also, I usually use keyboard+mouse for the overview, and then launching things is really, really, fast (<super>, type first chars in name, <return>).

GNOME 3 Shell is designed with touch use in mind, hence big icons and other stuff I previously mentioned regarding Dash and Categories.

How is "designed with touch in mind" *a bad thing*?? Touch screens are becoming a lot more common, so trying to make sure your desktop works reasonably well for that seems like a win to me.

[daedaluz]

I don't see how Activities in GNOME 3 is better than good old Applications, Places, System menus in GNOME 2.

Because...

First flick to left, shitload of big icons appear, then go to right and choose category. I don't see this as improvement.

...you haven't used GNOME since at least 3.4 which was early version. I think it was in 3.6 when those categories were removed, maybe 3.8 (that's when I started using GNOME). Now they are bringing back user customizable folders in 3.12. You are missing out greatly. And you really shouldn't argue when you have zero knowledge of subject. But now I at least understand why you are so angry and telling things that appear out of another dimension to me.

GNOME 3 Shell is designed with touch use in mind, hence big icons and other stuff I previously mentioned regarding Dash and Categories.
Emacs is not DE, OS, it is text editor.

Just stop repeating that, please, you are making a clown out of yourself. You don't have a slightest idea of how effective it really is, as became apparent above. And Emacs actually isn't "text editor". It's a self contained Lisp environment. With big friendly contex-aware buttons in X mode. Just like smartphone /s.

[btpfmj]

The GNOME project's arrogant insistence that everyone should conform to their idea of user interfaces has caused me nothing but headaches in the past few years, which was a very unusual experience for me when dealing with free software. Not only did they remove customization options in ways that seemed utterly indifferent to users' needs, they admitted to intentionally making the GNOME desktop hard to customize in order to promote some sort of 'brand'. This was documented in plenty of places, here's just one example: http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/...ing-in-threes/

Such a one-size-fits-all approach reminds me of commercial software and is the very antithesis of freedom in my opinion. I would have objected to trying to shove things down users' throats even if I happened to like their goofy UI.

I love free software but free software doesn't depend on GNOME. Instead of supporting them I'd like to see their influence diminish and give way to more user-friendly projects. Luckily there are several other truly free (not only in their license terms but also in spirit) desktop environments worthy of support.

[fanATic]

It can be argued that application exploration is slightly harder in G3, since categories have (recently) been removed.
Launching the applications you use all the time (let's call them favourites) is an extreme improvement as it is simply a flick-and-click away.
For me it is miles better than trying to hit a 16x16 pixel icon in the top bar, as I frequently did in G2.
Also, I usually use keyboard+mouse for the overview, and then launching things is really, really, fast (<super>, type first chars in name, <return>).

It depends on situation, some things are improvement, some are not. But put yourself in beginner user shoes, for this kind of user it would be easier to know which application belongs to certain category, like Accessories, Graphics, Internet, Office, Sound & Video, Administration, System Tools etc. instead all putting in one place.
UI must be intuitive, simple.

...you haven't used GNOME since at least 3.4 which was early version. I think it was in 3.6 when those categories were removed, maybe 3.8 (that's when I started using GNOME). Now they are bringing back user customizable folders in 3.12. You are missing out greatly. And you really shouldn't argue when you have zero knowledge of subject. But now I at least understand why you are so angry and telling things that appear out of another dimension to me.

You are right, things have changed. I installed Arch Linux with GNOME 3.10.2. Things got improved. As I said previously, I like clean UI design, and here GNOME 3 shines, but also I need to adapt to this kind of UI and different kind of workflow, more than on some other DE's with "traditional" UI desktop metaphor.

Just stop repeating that, please, you are making a clown out of yourself. You don't have a slightest idea of how effective it really is, as became apparent above.

Obviously Canonical with Unity, Linux Mint with Cinnamon and MATE and its users don't know how GNOME 3 great and effective is. GNOME 3 is best thing since sliced bread and people are to stubborn or not enough progressive to realise that, just like Windows users don't know how Metro UI is great and stay on Windows 7.

[fanATic]

I mean ffs if you want to look at this from a computer science angle is there even such a thing as a "feminine bubble sort" or "transgender red black tree" as if the person coding it matters? Computers do not care, period, programming is a strictly intellectual pursuit.

What Is Feminist Biology?

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/qa-what-feminist-biology