Setting Up GNOME Is Easier With Version 3.12

[justmy2cents]

You are talking some crazy jive there, buddy.

If I was you I would relax and just observe what happens because you really suck at speculating.

if you would check Phoronix history on fedora.next parts you would notice i used to promote exact same thinking as you do. then after seeing how bad gnome is getting with others and seeing fedora fosdem presentation, i went and started really digging. what i saw was enough to decide that fedora is not distro i want to stick with

@justmy2cents
Apart from a stronger focus on the development of (the indifferent to me) gnome apps and the fairly recent huge changes in HID (which I can certainly agree resulted in huge inconsistencies but don't consider bad design) I can't see how the shell itself had anything but improved tremendously since gnome 3.6.

indifferent????? @.@'
you mean like...
- using AppMenu insanity which is used nowhere else. idea works for OSX where it was copied from, gnome implementation on the other hand makes no sense at all since not one non-gnome app won't use it and gnome apps in different DE can't really expose it beside the fact doing that would make even less sense
- using non custom app grouping and ignoring default standard. bad excuse is that you can search it with shell, but sad reality is that it can't ever work on multilingual desktop
- using non standard dialog confirmation positioning, where they actually use 2 different standards that completely deviate from other ecosystem. is this some game where user should search how to confirm?
- using Chrome like menu button (which really makes sense there and it is implemented with thinking ahead) everywhere. but, unlike chrome they actually designed one of most unfriendly menu separations which reside on completely different sides of the screen beside the fact that it doesn't make any sense doing menu like that in most apps since all you get is cluttered nonsense
- using non standard notifications
- completely ignoring other DE. if DE for example relies on having title bars, gnome apps will simply be rectangular crap which completely falls out of picture
- 0 support on how other DE exposes some functions like running in tray and so on
- must i go further?

ok, here is my question to you. look at what you said... stronger focus on development. which tools will you use? and just how many different standards does that impose on you? that's not something i would call productive development environment if basics change in each software piece. even better question, how can one even support commercial desktop with such inconsistencies since typical user is anything but smart enough to go trough this "guess where"? how can you even develop cross platform app (yes, those are must if you want to see linux desktop to start gaining ground) and make it run sane in gnome without looking completely out of place? i already made one example in one of previous comments, now tell me how do you expect non-versed user will feel when conditioned to that

not to mention they are forcing people on touch like interface, where even MS realized this is a bad idea

[justmy2cents]

It is shame this is not true. It would be features, not bugs.

ok, and... when did i call anything ... bug? are there some invisible words i didn't saw i wrote?

i was naming reasons why gnome as it is doesn't make sense on any development/commercial desktop. breakages and incompatibilities with rest of the world are simply too expensive to keep up with support. i found it costs me less to port all my apps to qt than going forward with gnome support.

[zxy_thf]

I think Gnome (or Redhat) has a long-term plan of porting Gnome to tablets.

However they definitely can do better.
I want a menu, instead of "checking this item" when i right click something on their new apps

[newwen]

I think Gnome (or Redhat) has a long-term plan of porting Gnome to tablets.

However they definitely can do better.
I want a menu, instead of "checking this item" when i right click something on their new apps

tablets? I don't think so. I'd say touch screens, but not tablets.

[Kostas]

if you would check Phoronix history on fedora.next parts you would notice i used to promote exact same thinking as you do. then after seeing how bad gnome is getting with others and seeing fedora fosdem presentation, i went and started really digging. what i saw was enough to decide that fedora is not distro i want to stick with



indifferent????? @.@'
you mean like...
- using AppMenu insanity which is used nowhere else. idea works for OSX where it was copied from, gnome implementation on the other hand makes no sense at all since not one non-gnome app won't use it and gnome apps in different DE can't really expose it beside the fact doing that would make even less sense
- using non custom app grouping and ignoring default standard. bad excuse is that you can search it with shell, but sad reality is that it can't ever work on multilingual desktop
- using non standard dialog confirmation positioning, where they actually use 2 different standards that completely deviate from other ecosystem. is this some game where user should search how to confirm?
- using Chrome like menu button (which really makes sense there and it is implemented with thinking ahead) everywhere. but, unlike chrome they actually designed one of most unfriendly menu separations which reside on completely different sides of the screen beside the fact that it doesn't make any sense doing menu like that in most apps since all you get is cluttered nonsense
- using non standard notifications
- completely ignoring other DE. if DE for example relies on having title bars, gnome apps will simply be rectangular crap which completely falls out of picture
- 0 support on how other DE exposes some functions like running in tray and so on
- must i go further?

ok, here is my question to you. look at what you said... stronger focus on development. which tools will you use? and just how many different standards does that impose on you? that's not something i would call productive development environment if basics change in each software piece. even better question, how can one even support commercial desktop with such inconsistencies since typical user is anything but smart enough to go trough this "guess where"? how can you even develop cross platform app (yes, those are must if you want to see linux desktop to start gaining ground) and make it run sane in gnome without looking completely out of place? i already made one example in one of previous comments, now tell me how do you expect non-versed user will feel when conditioned to that

not to mention they are forcing people on touch like interface, where even MS realized this is a bad idea

I see you're obviously more emotional about it than I am.

I can understand increased dislike of the current situation if one is also a developer. As a user who simply uses GNOME's shell and the basic apps (I can't imagine myself switching to GNOME Web or relying of Documents) the current mess is a mere inconvenience.

The thing that I've come to realize, while I far from subscribe to the silly conspiracy theories (and btw you ought to know better than ascribing to the GNOME=touch BS) it's evident much of the development of projects close to Fedora is affected RHEL in that once a certain version is "locked" for RHEL, experimentation and wild features begin exploding until the next hiatus (see GNOME and systemd).

Effectively anything in-between can be treated as dev versions, especially in the context of other unrelated upstreams.

[Luke]

Touch screens on desktops damage elbows

tablets? I don't think so. I'd say touch screens, but not tablets.

Just enough people have used touch screen on desktops running Windows 8 to generate the new term "Windows 8 elbow" caused by overuse of that joint to address large touch screens set a couple feet away from the user. Both desktops and laptops set on a table have the potential to do this. Tablets are held much closer and used with far smaller movements.

My main objection to the tablet format, actually is this: I learned to type on IMF typewriters and type very hard. Such typing on an on-screen keyboard, on the rock-hard glass of a tablet would damage my fingers. That is true no matter what kind of OS, firmware, etc are used to power it.

[justmy2cents]

I see you're obviously more emotional about it than I am.

I can understand increased dislike of the current situation if one is also a developer. As a user who simply uses GNOME's shell and the basic apps (I can't imagine myself switching to GNOME Web or relying of Documents) the current mess is a mere inconvenience.

really? which one? top row confirmation button clusterfuck and others i named surely won't improve. the only way they could improve is if they reverted to same standards as they were using before changes (aka, same standards rest of the world uses). i only named deviations from rest of desktop ecosystem which completely confuse users. unlike you, i write apps and support desktops trying to persuade companies to move on linux. and persuasion became way harder from 3.6 up. harder to the point where i need to rethink whole game plan. dropping gtk for qt was one decision. which desktop as default do i pick and do i abandon RHEL too will be another heavily depending on how everything else works by default.

The thing that I've come to realize, while I far from subscribe to the silly conspiracy theories (and btw you ought to know better than ascribing to the GNOME=touch BS)

as far as touch goes, yea... maybe i worded it wrong since English is not my native language. what i meant (rough translation) to say is that my android phone cannot be considered development/commercial value desktop and somehow it is still more usable than gnome in that department. it's good if you remove features, but you need to know when to stop since all features remaining are actually usable.

it's evident much of the development of projects close to Fedora is affected RHEL in that once a certain version is "locked" for RHEL, experimentation and wild features begin exploding until the next hiatus (see GNOME and systemd).

Effectively anything in-between can be treated as dev versions, especially in the context of other unrelated upstreams.

i don't hate things for no reason. for example, i love systemd. systemd unlike gnome brings lots of things that were cluttered mess before into sensible unified structure (systemd actually has way more room to be different, since competition was small and all competition lacked too many things). gnome on the other hand breaks things into cluttered mess which is worse than it was in '94-'95 where i started using linux. but, to make it worse gnome is breaking principles of how things work which is something they don't realize it cannot be achieved. if one uses gnome HIG, his app is out of place anywhere else, if he uses normal standards his app is out of place in gnome. now think... would any sane developer ever say screw the rest and go with app for .5%? nope, screw gnome is the result

also, that is a case of brainless project management. if project breaks standards during stable version (like 3 in gnome case), there is real need to rethink if project is worth tracking and supporting. i decided it is a no go and started porting my apps to qt which seems to be real fashion lately. not to mention that project with such breakages has absolutely 0 corporate value.

[Luke]

Spoken like a true GNOME-or Windows-programmer

You should file a bug. Component: Luke.

The worst mistake in programming is to think you know better than the end users what end users need. GNOME and Windows are both notorious for this.

[justmy2cents]

If you don't like the Gnome app UX, you are better off targeting Unity. Have fun.

hmm... Unity is not even 1% as terrible as gnome in the department of being conformant with how other platforms work if you were trying to be sarcastic (if not, have my apology). only 2 problems there are with unity is ubuntu only and CLA (license actually doesn't matter to developer like me, so there is only one problem).

[justmy2cents]

Then Bye Go Unity and do it with style. Be a good Qute Ubuntu-boy and endorse the CLA to its fullest. A CLA-desktop soon to be built on a CLA-toolkit. You will be in good hands as a independent app developer.Gnome will walk the path of Gnome app UX, enterprise support, Wayland and keeping out of CLA.

ok, either you're dumb or you have 0 clue what you write where it actually surprises me you can find which key produces which letter to actually write a comment constructed out of words

- enterprise support? how... by ignoring the rest of the world? yep, enterprise level of ignorance. in fact ignorance to level where they could start charging users for ignoring them
- i said Unity CLA is a bug in my book, but since i wouldn't work on Unity, CLA never touches me. last time i checked, making software consistent in how it looks/works didn't require signing license
- qt works works on wayland too and i said i'm focusing on moving gtk to qt. why would i have problems with wayland?