It's Back To Voting For The Debian Init System

[mrugiero]

The current language proposed by Langasek and Allbery is overall reasonable and is sincere enough. You really can't expect Langasek to propose language that says that alternative inits must be dropped, because I don't think he sincerely wants that, regardless of his status.

Being sincere and having a conflict of interest are not incompatible, and I never stated he is not being sincere. I stated that, if the reasons are the one you say (and just to be clear, I do agree on the outcome that several init systems should be supported, as I consider Debian to be a distro about choice mostly), then he is basing his decision on things that are irrelevant to Debian and that is caused mostly because of his relationship with Canonical. It's all I'm saying. What Canonical likes or what happens to Upstart as a consequence of Debian's choice of init system should not really be taken into account, as it's not Debian's problem, at least IMO.

So I believe his motivation is both sincere and influenced from outside. And while he may have this certain motivation behind his proposal, it is not a hindrance to Debian (not any more, at least), especially compared to what Jackson keeps proposing.

Again, it could as well be both, I'm not telling he is not being sincere. In fact, I recall someone mentioned as a reason not to completely drop Upstart support the fact Canonical might lose interest, but I'm not sure if it was him. I haven't said it's a hindrance to Debian, either. In fact, I agree on the conclusion, I just disagree on the motives, if they are the ones you said, as those are things Debian should not care about. Debian is not an Ubuntu spin, it's not a Canonical subordinate, so those reasons should have no weight in their decisions, they should keep their independence.

[GreatEmerald]

Sure, but of course the problem is always that you can't know one's motivation without being able to read minds...

Also, never mind my question on Jackson. He just voted. So he didn't ragequit, he's just raging. But really, he's still not even trying to cover the fact that his votes are insincere. Voting V over every other init option...

[FLHerne]

Now he's started one vote for the T/L question, and a second to 'depose the Chairman'.

And promised to sponsor a GR to overturn the one he just lost.

What.

[interested]

That is an old quote. You should rather look at his latest proposals. For instance: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte.../msg00308.html It's pretty clear that he wants the integration to go forward now, but if possible keep the other options open as well (which makes sense, since he will have to keep maintaining Upstart regardless, and Canonical wouldn't be pleased if he suddenly did a 180 before they themselves decide to switch away from Upstart).

Well, that exactly underscores my point about him back-pedalling on his original stance. It must be assumed that he really meant what he wrote in the amendment to the voting ballot, and that was a hard line in total alignment with Canonical's interests. Later, when not only the Upstart, but also "castrate all Debian programs to work with Upstart" ballots failed, did he soften up in order to reach a compromise.

He hasn't changed his goal, it is just that he isn't in a position of power to enforce his aim any more, and therefore have to rely on compromises and cooperation to salvage as much as possible. Not a bad thing at all. Debian and CTTE, and democratic processes are all about such compromises.

[Scimmia]

Speaking of Jackson, we haven't heard from him for a while now. I wonder if he's ragequitting...

Pretty close. He's now called for a vote asking Bdale to step down, called for a vote on his complex init system ballot, called for a vote on a separate initiative to let a GR override the TC, then proceeded to leave the list for a few days.

[GreatEmerald]

Well, that exactly underscores my point about him back-pedalling on his original stance. It must be assumed that he really meant what he wrote in the amendment to the voting ballot, and that was a hard line in total alignment with Canonical's interests. Later, when not only the Upstart, but also "castrate all Debian programs to work with Upstart" ballots failed, did he soften up in order to reach a compromise.

He hasn't changed his goal, it is just that he isn't in a position of power to enforce his aim any more, and therefore have to rely on compromises and cooperation to salvage as much as possible. Not a bad thing at all. Debian and CTTE, and democratic processes are all about such compromises.

Yes. But, again, that's nothing really unexpected, Langasek said he'd do that back in December.

[Delgarde]

Yes. But, again, that's nothing really unexpected, Langasek said he'd do that back in December.

I think some people just want to believe in villanous Canonical-centered conspiracies (and to be fair, there's some basis for many of them).

But along with Russ, Steve has been one of the standouts in this whole stupid argument - open about his motives and background, and prepared to work with the opposition to try to find an outcome that both sides can live with (and unlike some, hasn't thrown a tantrum when things haven't gone his way). For all the peanut-gallery calls for him to abstain from voting on this issue, I don't think that would have been to the benefit of Debian...