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Thread: User Features Coming To GNOME 3.11.5

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by frign View Post
    Gnome is mostly owned by RedHat now.
    So, back about five years ago, Red Hat paid a bunch of GNOME developers. So did SUSE. So did Sun. So did a few other companies. Smaller companies paid one or two here and there - Mandriva had fcrozat, there were various others.

    These days, Red Hat stills pays its GNOME devs, plus a few more as budgets allow. All the other companies cut their budgets and stopped paying GNOME devs.

    So, now people say GNOME is 'owned by Red Hat', even though Red Hat doesn't do anything different than it's ever done. We pay some GNOME developers' paychecks. There used to be lots of other people who did this too. They decided to stop doing that. And somehow that makes us the bad guys?

    (note: this is simplified - the 'Red Hat owns GNOME' meme isn't even really true as far as it goes, there are still plenty of people working on GNOME who aren't paid by RH. but insofar as it's "true" that RH pays more GNOME devs proportionally than it used to, the reason is as above: other companies don't do it as much as they used to. Are we supposed to fire people until we're 'back in proportion'?)

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scionicspectre View Post
    GNOME 3 has become a very good piece of software. If I was amazed by the 3.0 release, just imagine how I would have reacted if 3.10 was the first official release- the amount of improvement is exceptional.

    Even if it's not your kind of desktop environment, you have to admit that GNOME 3 is a great achievement for the GNOME community. They had a vision of how GNOME could become relevant again, and competitive with modern commercial systems, and they took a few good risks based on sound design principles. Over only a few years, most of that vision has come to pass aside from the apps, but those are quickly filling out.

    Although the differences are a bit drastic for seasoned desktop veterans, new users have a much better experience and get things done much more easily than with traditional Linux desktop experiences. GNOME and elementary are the only two projects that have successfully wooed any of my friends or family in the long-term. They want to use Linux- no need to convince anyone on technical or philsophical terms anymore.

    When GNOME 3 came into its own, I went from being told to stop using Linux to being asked to set up computers to dual-boot it. Even if you think GNOME 3 is unusable, which would be quite a leap, you have to admit that the social impact of the project has been a significant win. Same with elementary- although it is a bit more traditional in window management, it is very bold and uncompromising with making applications feel cohesive and immediately useful.

    I think we need to measure the usefulness and meaning of these kinds of improvements with a more holistic mindset to understand the motivations of the people working on these projects. Even though some (very few) of the designers and developer evangelists behind GNOME are employed by Red Hat, that money does not discount the psychological impact of the vitriol they have received from Linux users. You may say it's simply a fact of life that the tech industry is under that kind of irrational scrutiny, but that's a pretty shallow justification for the impact it has on people personally. I hope we can support everything that improves the lives of others, especially when we have such freedom to use whatever environment we like on Linux.
    What "sound design principles" do you have in mind?
    My problems have been, 1. they weren't daring enough (they made big changes to the ui but, arguably, without much to show for it), 2. the project is too insular (when it comes to design decisions you can count on one hand the folks who make those decisions and have fingers to spare!), 3. they're stubborn.
    I still use it because I want to support gnome and it is still a good desktop. It just isn't as powerful as osx and the fact they aren't even striving for that is sad.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delgarde View Post
    Oh no, theming keeps breaking when stuff changes. Whatever shall I do? the world is ending...
    read the article till the end.

  4. #14
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    edit time window passed... >.>

    it seems that theming as any other modification is not intended to be allowed at all. but that's the not the worst part.

    p.s. the really interesting quotes aren't out of context. most of them are quoted together with the context, even with the reply chain.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    the project is too insular (when it comes to design decisions you can count on one hand the folks who make those decisions and have fingers to spare!)
    "We are always looking for new design contributors, so please get in touch if you want to help" -- https://wiki.gnome.org/Design/
    So, what's stopping you?

  6. #16
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    Cool That's okay

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    There used to be lots of other people who did this too. They decided to stop doing that. And somehow that makes us the bad guys?
    No, that's okay. It's also okay when you expect the Gnome devs to follow certain design principles when you pay them to do so (Hell, it's even part of the free software philosophy, to pay developers to do the job for you).
    From what I see here, though, RedHat's design principles focus too much on creating a shell around itself, thus meaning incompatibility with themes, unstable API and bloat.

    I won't accuse you of having a biased opinion on this topic, given you are a RedHat-employee and speak on behalf of your company, what I understand.
    Developing free software however includes more than just paying developers to do it, the community actually using the software should also be addressed.
    A prime example is the attempt to create a touch-desktop for Gnome. Hell, even Microsoft failed to force this upon their users!

    “Look after the customer and the business will take care of itself” – Ray Kroc, founder of McDonald’s

  7. #17
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    Question Ad hominem

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    That's an insanely biased article which is based on taking the most apparently damaging words the author can find as far out of context as possible. Hardly a reliable resource.
    Nice how you try to attack this in fact very reliable source ad hominem.
    Dude, we could discuss the vocabulary, but it's not about that! It's about the content.
    Only because it's critical of your agenda, it doesn't mean it is an unreliable source. Is every RedHat-developer like you a reliable source on the other hand, given he supports it?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by lelele View Post
    What things should I know before I ride the Anti-Gnome3 hate train?

    Though the try-exec thing is pretty cool. One thing I missed from windows. A pain to launch incognito from the launchers. I resorted to using super secret keybinds. Is there anyway to that in dock apps? Are these available in other desktop panels like xfce-panels?
    that's easy.
    - they know how you want to use your computer, you don't... Gnome mantra in version 3
    - cross platform... doesn't matter. if you try and follow their guidelines... ET put naked in strip joint won't be as obvious alien as your software on non-gnome and vice versa

    i was absolute fan until 3.4 or 3.6. i doubt i used other DE from 0.11 times more than 30 hours. at that point whole thing started breaking, while now it's downright bordering on stupid. in fact you learn to not get excited about cool feature being added, it'll be removed in next and replaced with most stupid possible in 2 versions after

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    So, back about five years ago, Red Hat paid a bunch of GNOME developers. So did SUSE. So did Sun. So did a few other companies. Smaller companies paid one or two here and there - Mandriva had fcrozat, there were various others.

    These days, Red Hat stills pays its GNOME devs, plus a few more as budgets allow. All the other companies cut their budgets and stopped paying GNOME devs.

    So, now people say GNOME is 'owned by Red Hat', even though Red Hat doesn't do anything different than it's ever done. We pay some GNOME developers' paychecks. There used to be lots of other people who did this too. They decided to stop doing that. And somehow that makes us the bad guys?

    (note: this is simplified - the 'Red Hat owns GNOME' meme isn't even really true as far as it goes, there are still plenty of people working on GNOME who aren't paid by RH. but insofar as it's "true" that RH pays more GNOME devs proportionally than it used to, the reason is as above: other companies don't do it as much as they used to. Are we supposed to fire people until we're 'back in proportion'?)
    1st off, i have all respect for RH. Hats off *pun intended. although, i moved to korora cinnamon just to avoid gnome lately. right now, i'm starting to question wheter i'll need more progressive move since i don't know how @.@' NEW @.@' design will work in cinnamon http://worldofgnome.org/gedit-3-12-migrates-to-hig-3/ . perhaps i'll gave it a go one round and then switch if i see too much work is needed. but, sure as hell won't lose a minute

    as far as firing... yea, if you pay most uncommunicative knowitalls community has ever known as gnome devs are, that will just backfire on RH in the long run. if you look at gnome listening to their users track record, you should see it is THE single most broken record which does nothing but puts RH in bad spotlight as *they are responsible for this*, since they are only ones officially backing gnome (i don't think that, but it is message that is being conveyed). so, firing or redelegating those paid developers to other projects might be healthy/good idea

    just few examples
    - if linuxconf actually has a session http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux...rk_Hohndel.mp4 what does this convey? i seriously doubt they would put it out if there wasn't something really wrong.
    - look how many gnome users scream they don't wan't computer work like phone. there are lots of reasons why phone interface is like it is, touch interface and small screen estate maybe?
    - gnome3 mantra... users don't know how they want to use computer, we do. ever tried to speak to gnome developer why not do something? "lalalala, can't hear ya". it doesn't matter how many real world examples you use, you don't get rebuttal, you get to feel stupid like you were speaking to the wall
    ... i could go on and on

    btw, in defense of RH. RH also pays some KDE devs AFAIK, it's just that message is hidden, since KDE devs seem to be way more concerned with their users than with their ego and you don't get public demonstrations which would require any accusations

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by justmy2cents View Post
    - if linuxconf actually has a session http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux...rk_Hohndel.mp4 what does this convey? i seriously doubt they would put it out if there wasn't something really wrong.
    I am a GNOME fan, and prefer the look of GTK over Qt. I would probably still use Qt over GTK if I wanted cross platform functionality. I don't think this says much at all.

    - look how many gnome users scream they don't wan't computer work like phone. there are lots of reasons why phone interface is like it is, touch interface and small screen estate maybe?
    Which is strange, as G3 is really not a phone interface at all. Some elements have changed to be more touch-friendly, but it is very much optimized for keyboard and mouse.

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