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Thread: Future Of Fedora Spins Is Questioned With Fedora.Next

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    I know that you aren't speaking officially for RH, and that Fedora.next is still very vague and unclear, but as I understand the your answer, you too seem to acknowledge that the Fedora.next Workstation "product" will be strictly Gnome only. You just don't see it as a problem, since one can use the net installer. Well, allow me as a long time Red Hat and Fedora user to strongly disagree with that. And seriously, alienating the KDE, LXDE, and Xfce users isn't the way forward for Fedora to gain new users and developers.
    Umm. I don't speak for anyone other than myself. Having said that, the workstation product DE is undecided at this point but it is likely to be GNOME given that it is a sort of successor to fedora desktop live image which has GNOME as default. I have been a maintainer of other spins in Fedora and I don't really see easy access to other desktop environments going away. I was just responding to the idea that something is "mandatory". KDE spin has KDE desktop as mandatory as well but as long as other alternative methods of installing what you want easily, there isn't a real issue. Spins are one form of that. Network installation is another. Kickstart is yet another. What you pick depends on what level of control you want. I suspect the number of ways to install Fedora isn't really going to be limited by this proposal but feel free to participate in the discussions directly if you want to to make sure the concerns are addressed.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by eidolon View Post
    While downloads through fedoraproject.org don't tell the whole story for reasons that are commonly mentioned when trying to approximate actual usage, does the Fedora Project track downloads in such a way it can be determined which install media are most downloaded (e.g. DVD, netinstall, KDE live media, GNOME live media, Xfce live media, etc)? I'm going to hazard a guess that GNOME live media is the most downloaded, at least in part due to its being the Fedora default and relatedly the most visible download. I know that spins.fedoraproject.org ranks spins by popularity, though there are no numbers provided to put that in context, nor does it shed any light on downloads for DVD, netinstall, or GNOME live media. That (i.e. a piece of the puzzle of how Fedora gets into the hands of users) may be completely extraneous to the Fedora Project's current internal discussions, but I would like to know if download figures are collected somewhere, and are readily accessible (internally or externally to the Fedora Project).
    Numbers are always going to be fuzzy but some are posted at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics. They aren't that helpful in addressing the question of popular of specific spins mostly because Fedora mirroring is a pull system (ie) public mirrors initiate the sync and they aren't sharing any data on direct access which is not uncommon. If they going though the mirror manager, they will be counted and those stats are in the wiki page above. Spins.fp.o itself had some data as well but I don't think it counted torrents

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RahulSundaram View Post
    [snip...] Spins are one form of that. Network installation is another. Kickstart is yet another. What you pick depends on what level of control you want.
    My main problem is exactly that Spins like the KDE Spin may disappear (see the Headline about that) without any substitute other than a net-installer.

    Quote Originally Posted by RahulSundaram View Post
    [snip...] but feel free to participate in the discussions directly if you want to to make sure the concerns are addressed.
    Yes, I better do that.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Right now the “Desktop” is Gnome-only (there is no “Gnome” variant of Fedora, Fedora Desktop simply ships Gnome). However, the KDE variant AFAIK is the only Spin with the power to block Fedora release, i.e. if there is a showstopping bug in a crucial KDE / Plasma Desktop component (KWin for example), a Fedora release won't ship until that bug is resolved.
    No other desktop has that power. Not Xfce, not LXDE, not Mate, not Cinnamon. And that's why Fedora ships Plasma Workspaces as default on ARM.
    Well, that is how things are right now, but with the elimination of the KDE Spin, and no other KDE workstation install medium is available, will KDE still be a release priority that can block a release because of showstopper bugs?

    That Fedora ships Plasma on ARM will last exactly until GNOME OS (aka Gnome 4) is stable enough to replace it and not a day longer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    If anything, the current Fedora KDE spin will likely be promoted from a mere Spin to a Fedora Product. As for the other desktops: Their fate is not so sure but I doubt they'd be eliminated from the repos.
    Personally, I think as long as they are kept in the repos, delegating responsibility for default setups to remixes is not that bad. I do not use default Fedora. I use the Korora remix. Korora is great and if Korora gets more volunteers by becoming the number one destination for people who want to have Plasma Desktop, Xfce, LXDE or whatever by default, it'll be great.
    A good Fedora remix depends on Fedora as upstream. By "delegating responsibility" for KDE to remixes, KDE will effectively be removed from Fedora. There will no longer be any upstream KDE packages, and Fedora bug reports on KDE will disappear from bugzilla.

    I hope that KDE will be promoted to a Fedora "product", but I don't share your optimism about it. Red Hat and Fedora have long given KDE the "Silent Treatment", they don't talk about KDE, and they don't feature it on any Fedora promotional material (screen shots are always Gnome), so I find it extremely unlikely, that after so many years of barely tolerating KDE, Red Hat would be involved in anything that would promote KDE from second or third class citizen, to anything resembling parity with Gnome.

  5. #25
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    I'm not arguing against Fedora.next as an abstract (I'm actually receptive to some of the overarching concepts), it's how the details are filled in and the implementation is carried out that concerns me. I understand wanting to increase Fedora's "relevance and value to the FOSS ecosystem", but arguably just as important as increasing relevance and value is not eroding the relevance and value that already exist.

    As specifically regards spins, I agree in general principle with https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipe...ry/194891.html. It appears that if spins became remixes, relationship-wise they would be no more a part of the Fedora Project than Korora, RFRemix, etc (in other words, they wouldn't fall under the Fedora Project umbrella); they wouldn't receive Fedora branding and Fedora Project endorsement. With no place as Fedora Project offerings and no appeal as third-party-software-inclusive remixes (as presumably the to-be-ex spins would still eschew that), and with unforeseen barriers to continuation then being faced, I don't see most of them being long for this world. Without the Fedora Project, I wonder if sooner or later these efforts would cease to continue, either due to the infrastructure burden or becoming so out-of-sight-out-of-mind that they wither away. I'm not saying there shouldn't be some sort of value threshold that has to be met (and how that would be determined I can't say), but I hope no premature decisions are made while Fedora.next is still coming into focus, and not just as it relates to spins. Based on the most recent messages, it looks like there won't be a rush to judgment, and that's good.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    Well, that is how things are right now, but with the elimination of the KDE Spin, and no other KDE workstation install medium is available, will KDE still be a release priority that can block a release because of showstopper bugs?
    Nowhere in the mailing list thread there is any indication that there won't be a KDE variant of Fedora. On the contrary: Lukáš Tinkl, a Red Hat employee for Fedora KDE, is in the Workstation group: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation
    There could just as well be Fedora Workstation with a desktop selection screen during installation.

    There could also be a Tablet product with Plasma Active as default (contrary to popular rumors Gnome is not a tablet interface).

    Everything is just work in progress. No final decisions have been made.

    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    That Fedora ships Plasma on ARM will last exactly until GNOME OS (aka Gnome 4) is stable enough to replace it and not a day longer.
    It has nothing to do with Gnome's stability and everything to do with Gnome's stupid decision to require OpenGL acceleration which does not exist for many ARMs using free drivers. Plasma works fine with software rendering.

    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    A good Fedora remix depends on Fedora as upstream. By "delegating responsibility" for KDE to remixes, KDE will effectively be removed from Fedora. There will no longer be any upstream KDE packages, and Fedora bug reports on KDE will disappear from bugzilla.
    Where in the entire mailing list thread has there even been the suggestion to remove packages from the repositories???
    Let me give you a dose of reality: Right now there is no Cinnamon spin of Fedora. Cinnamon exists in the repositories, though, and Korora (a Fedora remix maintained by only two or so people) managed to offer Cinnamon ISOs: https://kororaproject.org/download

    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    Red Hat and Fedora have long given KDE the "Silent Treatment", they don't talk about KDE
    Not true, e.g.:
    http://ltinkl.blogspot.com/
    https://access.redhat.com/site/docum...ml#idp10763840
    http://magazine.redhat.com/2008/05/1...-road-to-kde4/


    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    and they don't feature it on any Fedora promotional material (screen shots are always Gnome)
    Why should they show something other than the default? If you want to see bad marketing material, just look at release notes of LibreOffice: They are an incoherent mess! Some screenshots are taken under Windows, some OSX, some Ubuntu, some Plasma Desktop, and some under Gnome. It looks terrible.

    I don't care what's default as long as the software I want works well. Kubuntu has Plasma Desktop as default but it's a broken POS.

    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    so I find it extremely unlikely, that after so many years of barely tolerating KDE, Red Hat would be involved in anything that would promote KDE from second or third class citizen, to anything resembling parity with Gnome.
    There are only two DE projects that are sponsored by Red Hat by employing developers: Gnome and KDE.
    That's a fact.

    In 2013 Red Hat developed Plasma-NM, a new front-end for NetworkManager, and KScreen. RH took over maintenance of Akonadi, Phonon-GStreamer, KDE Telepathy, and Solid and contributes to KDM and SDDM.

    Yes, Red Hat focuses more on Gnome but employing KDE developers and fully supporting KDE in RHEL is hardly hostility towards KDE.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    There could just as well be Fedora Workstation with a desktop selection screen during installation.
    It already existed in Fedora for a very long time. Use the DVD installer ISO and not the LiveDVD ISOs, and the user gets to play with the packages to be installed at the package selection screen in Anaconda. Very unlikely this option is going to be dropped in Fedora Workstation (even more unlikely than Fedora dropping the DVD installer ISO)

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Why should they show something other than the default? If you want to see bad marketing material, just look at release notes of LibreOffice: They are an incoherent mess! Some screenshots are taken under Windows, some OSX, some Ubuntu, some Plasma Desktop, and some under Gnome. It looks terrible.
    Because they want to show how each feature looks under a different operating system? Remember that some of the changes (especially UI changes) are OS specific.


    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    I don't care what's default as long as the software I want works well. Kubuntu has Plasma Desktop as default but it's a broken POS.
    If it's not the default then they are not obligated to focus that much effort on it. That is the downside of distributions that advertise a default DE (like how Gnome appears to be a second class citizen under KDE-centric distributions like OpenSUSE and Mandriva / Mageia). Be satisfied that Fedora at least ships working KDE packages for YUM.

    Plus no distribution ships with any warranty; if it doesn't work well, that's really just too bad. Wait for the next release.


    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    In 2013 Red Hat developed Plasma-NM, a new front-end for NetworkManager, and KScreen. RH took over maintenance of Akonadi, Phonon-GStreamer, KDE Telepathy, and Solid and contributes to KDM and SDDM.
    Weren't Novell and OpenSUSE supposed to be KDE's biggest contributors?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    That is the downside of distributions that advertise a default DE (like how Gnome appears to be a second class citizen under KDE-centric distributions like OpenSUSE and Mandriva / Mageia).
    OpenSUSE users are tied, 50/50, between KDE and GNOME.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    Weren't Novell and OpenSUSE supposed to be KDE's biggest contributors?
    Nope. You must be thinking about something else, like Blue Systems.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    OpenSUSE users are tied, 50/50, between KDE and GNOME.
    Funny because OpenSUSE is always among the top contenders for best KDE distribution:
    http://netrunner-mag.com/?p=3184

    And Novell / Attachmate / the OpenSUSE team clearly aim for OpenSUSE to be the best ever KDE distribution:
    http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:No_1_KDE_strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Nope. You must be thinking about something else, like Blue Systems.
    Funny again because KDE themselves says so: http://dot.kde.org/2007/07/07/intel-...me-patrons-kde

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    Funny because OpenSUSE is always among the top contenders for best KDE distribution:
    http://netrunner-mag.com/?p=3184

    And Novell / Attachmate / the OpenSUSE team clearly aim for OpenSUSE to be the best ever KDE distribution:
    http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:No_1_KDE_strategy
    The fact that the users use both equally doesn't stop the developers from trying to polish them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    Funny again because KDE themselves says so: http://dot.kde.org/2007/07/07/intel-...me-patrons-kde
    In 2007? And Novell doesn't even exist (independently) any more.

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