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Thread: GNOME Ended 2013 With 46k Open Bug Reports

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azpegath View Post
    HAHAHAHAHAHA says a Vim user! With the learning curve of a cliff! Talk about adapting your workflow to the tool at hand. I'm also a Vim user, but that's really talking about a tool where you have to spend a lot of time to be able to harness the power of it.
    There is no problem at all to configure Vim to behave like you want it. Of course the learning curve of nano is much lower, but you can't adapt it to your needs as good as Vim. That is the same thing as with Gnome, to use nano you have to adapt to nano, but I can adapt Vim to my likings.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    Question: Isn't the entire POINT of a GUI to not have to bother with a command prompt or keyboard shortcuts for basic system operations? If you are required to do so, then the GUI has failed in its most basic purpose.
    No. The whole point of a GUI is to allow you to run graphical programs in a simple way. Up to which grade this includes providing dialogs for system management is up to the developers of that GUI. For example, I use the GUI to comfortably manage Windows, especially terminal emulators, but I use the terminal exclusively for system administration.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by GEO1 View Post
    Calling KDE SOFTWARE "unusable" is not the right expression, just because of the lack of consistency. (BTW, you just called an community unusable again ...) .
    Don't be silly: KDE is the "K Desktop Environment". That's what everyone (apparently just not you) means by "KDE".

    So you call KDE community working without leadership, which is right, but still they try to work as good a possible together. Who would be the leadership of GNOME?
    I can think of a few names (Alan Day, Andre Klapper...) but I don't know them all. They are usually blamed for "not listening" but a design team can only listen so much. We can discuss the merits of their design (I believe they're wrong in a few places) but they're definitely putting design first, which is the right thing to do. The same goes for the Elementary guys.

    As far as I know the only project having strict guidelines and a leadership is Unity and the core applications.
    Actually not just the core applications. Because Ubuntu has put good care to adopt the two main toolkits (GTK+ and Qt) to ease the discrepancies AND adapt the few important foreigners (Firefox/Thunderbird and LibreOffice), so they belong in the same look and feel and overall design (global menu, HUD, etc.)


    Does it make a project unusable, just because its community is very open?
    No, KDE is unusable because it puts coding before UI/UX design.

    Unfortunately, design can't be made out of the bazaar's model. It's a cathedral type of discipline. It requires a focused small team with strong leadership and professionally trained people focusing on the different areas of the project. There's no such thing as "open design" except for the part when the team exposes its work and leaves it to coders to implement it openly (actually this is not accurate; coders should be very close to the design team in order to accomplish the best possible implementation, but I'm trying to keep things simple here). A design team can be open to suggestions, and even show all the process' progress like in a permanent "open doors day", but can't be driven democratically or meritocratically. A project developed by a large community with focus away from design has a very tiny chance of being usable.

    Of course, you might say lots of people use KDE so KDE is usable. So is the terminal, but I hope to agree that we're talking ordinary people here, not geeks who can use anything you throw at them.

    Apart from that, you will never be able to use 100% consistent software, because if you want that you would have to ditch all other applications not explicitly designed for that environment, because it may differ in its design.
    I'll be happy with an 80% consistent DE and applications. KDE isn't remotely close.

    For example Gnome client side window decoration may look beautiful with applications that support it, but all other application with no support for it differ which is again not consistency.
    I mentioned that already in this same thread. That's one of their design decisions I believe they're not in a position to take. IF they were strong enough they might convince application developers to go with them, but nowadays cross-platform development imposes limitations that must be observed by DE designers. That makes decisions like the CSD from Gnome an exercise in a vacuum, going nowhere. A modern DE design should try to encompass different toolkits under the same umbrella and try to interfere as little as possible with current app development conventions. At least until their own SDK becomes so ubiquitous that app developers accept it as THE way to develop. THEN it's possible to introduce "revolutionary" changes. But even then, it's wise to observe cross-platform conventions as much as possible. Ubuntu has been doing that right with Unity. (We'll see what happens with Unity 8 and the convergent SDK, which will address the desktop this year.)

    And I have to disagree with "UI design first, then implementation", as Plasma Workspaces for example try to move to QML, where application logic and design implementation can be separated very well. Furthermore the trend is going to having one application with multiple interfaces for different from factors. Starting with the UI design first does not make that much sense to me.
    I'm not quite sure you know what design is...

    With "people need to separate" I did not mean the people of the KDE community, but people here judging KDE software, as they do not separate between different applications, workspaces (DEs) and UX elements (icons, theme, etc.).
    I know exactly what you meant. And I intentionally told you KDE needs to put all these things you mention together under a strong leadership after a thorough design phase, executed by well paid designers (not by coders). That won't happen obviously.

    I hope the KDE usability project reaches more developers and will therefore succeed. There will always be individual developers that refuse to accept guidelines, but that will exist in every open community and guidelines are guidelines not rules.
    Again: you don't understand design. There shouldn't exist a "KDE usability project". Usability and UX are crucial parts of design that can't be left to a side project. The design represents the very seeds of the whole project. Not a single line of code should be written without a purpose explicitly expressed in a design. KDE (the DE and its whole community) is fundamentally flawed because of this mentality, precisely.

    In terms of themes KDE software comes with pretty great consistency: The oxygen theme looks pretty good for KDE/QT/GTK applications.

    There are of course exceptions like firefox or libre office that use strange toolkits and therefore do not support gradients used by the oxygen theme.

    Here one can again see one fundamental problem with "design vs. consistency": The oxygen gradients are beautiful imho, but not all toolkits support it. So from a design point of view it is nice, but it will add a bit of inconsitency. Same goes for the aforementioned Gnome client side decorations.
    You have a serious problem understanding design. It's not about looks or developer guidelines (those are minuscule parts of the design process). It would take a lot to explain what design is in a short forum reply, so allow me to suggest some learning on the subject. (No offense intended. You don't have to know what design is to live happily, but if you want to talk about it, then you definitely do have to.)

  4. #84
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    this little survey shows that Gnome 3 is more popular than KDE
    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uQ-.../viewanalytics

    source http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/commen...ey_about_dewm/

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
    Don't be silly: KDE is the "K Desktop Environment". That's what everyone (apparently just not you) means by "KDE".
    That would be KDE SC (KDE Software Compilation), but i have to agree that most use KDE instead of KDE SC.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
    Do you think these hacks will still be there with Unity 8? Where they there with the old "Unity 2D"? I bet it all has to do with the peculiar idea of implementing a DE as a plugin to a window manager, Compiz, but then I'm no developer.
    Thing is, the hacks are there today because they wanted to push something out to their users, without taking the time to do it properly - instead of building a Unity8 style system at the time, they hacked something together so they could proclaim their shiny new UI, and only then spend time doing it properly. Those specific hacks will probably be gone in the next version, but if the attitude that put them there hasn't changed, I imagine they'll simply have been replaced with different ones.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nille_kungen View Post
    That would be KDE SC (KDE Software Compilation), but i have to agree that most use KDE instead of KDE SC.
    Does *anyone* outside of the project refer to the desktop as anything other than KDE? The KDE devs refer to KDE SC in their blogs and g+ streams, but I rarely see the term used anywhere else... it's been KDE for more than ten years, and nobody can be bothered adding "SC" to the end...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    There is no problem at all to configure Vim to behave like you want it. Of course the learning curve of nano is much lower, but you can't adapt it to your needs as good as Vim. That is the same thing as with Gnome, to use nano you have to adapt to nano, but I can adapt Vim to my likings.
    And what exactly do you want to do with GNOME that you can't write an extension for?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy_ View Post
    They brought it on themselves when they discontinued Gnome 2 to release this abomination. And as for "given enough eyeballs", I seriously doubt that anyone in their right mind uses Gnome 3, much less people who could actually fix bugs in it. Much like Unity it's a total train wreck of a DE that has nothing to offer except "shiny" (read: monstrously ugly) UI, zero productivity and near zero configurability.
    Dev here and using RedHat/Fedora for 17 years now. I love Gnome 3, it is a step in the right direction towards modernizing the distro.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by chenxiaolong View Post
    EDIT: Oh yeah. For those who hated GNOME for the optional systemd dependencies, well, several Unity packages can't compile without Upstart or libnih (ha).
    Interesting fun fact

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