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Thread: Debian Still Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred14 View Post
    When Gentoo dropped gnome-3.8 and systemd on us it was sudden and without warning, at least in the usual user-places. There was no news item, nor did I see it in my regular forum topics. I was just doing my regular weekly maintenance (after having missed a week or two) and suddenly there were well over a hundred updates, piles of blocks, and some really major things in the list - including systemd. To this day there has still not been a news item about gnome-3.8 or systemd.
    +1

    This crippled my machine without warning. Those things renew my hate for Gentoo now and then, but on this particular instance I've had to sift through systemd's documentation and so have found that systemd might be a solution for many problems that plagued Linux all those years.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred14 View Post
    There was a switch a few years back from baselayout1 to baselayout2. If that's when they introduced OpenRC, then it looks to me as if that was mostly repackaging, not something fundamentally new. The way I administered my systems didn't change significantly in that interval, other than that some config files changed and moved a bit. But in terms of starting and stopping services, it was still "rc-update", and the whole depends/uses/provides scheme was unchanged. There are changes, but on the baselayout/OpenRC side they're reasonably incremental and well-staged.

    When Gentoo dropped gnome-3.8 and systemd on us it was sudden and without warning, at least in the usual user-places. There was no news item, nor did I see it in my regular forum topics. I was just doing my regular weekly maintenance (after having missed a week or two) and suddenly there were well over a hundred updates, piles of blocks, and some really major things in the list - including systemd. To this day there has still not been a news item about gnome-3.8 or systemd.
    I'm guessing now as I dont use gentoo but I think baselayout1 was a oldschool init system with init files. Openrc use runscript as some sort of high level abstraction of the init system.
    I took this example from http://thomas.goirand.fr/blog/?p=147
    Code:
    #!/sbin/runscript
     
    command=/usr/sbin/rsyslogd
    name="enhanced syslogd"
     
    depend()
    {
            provide rsyslogd syslog
            need $remote_fs $time
    }

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
    Ehh and what is running debian if not libc6?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_GLIBC

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rallos Zek View Post

    Code:
      % apt-cache search eglibc                                               
    eglibc-source - Embedded GNU C Library: sources
    It's the only package that even mentions eglibc...

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
    Code:
      % apt-cache search eglibc                                               
    eglibc-source - Embedded GNU C Library: sources
    It's the only package that even mentions eglibc...
    That only searches for binary packages. eglibc is the name of a *source* package, and from that, the libc6 binary package (providing libc.so.6 and ld-linux) and others are built.
    http://packages.debian.org/src:eglibc

    I think Debian switched from regular GNU libc to eglibc for squeeze. GNU/kFreeBSD uses that one too. uclibc and dietlibc are available in Debian for specialised stuff.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
    Code:
      % apt-cache search eglibc                                               
    eglibc-source - Embedded GNU C Library: sources
    It's the only package that even mentions eglibc...
    On my Debian Sid lappy, pay attention to "Description" and "Homepage":
    Code:
    **********@******:~$ sudo aptitude show libc6
    Package: libc6
    State: installed
    Automatically installed: yes
    Multi-Arch: same
    Version: 2.17-97
    Priority: required
    Section: libs
    Maintainer: GNU Libc Maintainers <debian-glibc@lists.debian.org>
    Architecture: amd64
    Uncompressed Size: 10.5 M
    Depends: libgcc1
    Suggests: glibc-doc, debconf | debconf-2.0, locales
    Conflicts: prelink (<= 0.0.20090311-1), prelink (<= 0.0.20090311-1), tzdata (< 2007k-1), tzdata (< 2007k-1), tzdata-etch, tzdata-etch
    Breaks: hurd (< 1:0.5.git20130928-2), hurd (< 1:0.5.git20130928-2), locales (< 2.17), locales (< 2.17), locales-all (< 2.17),
            locales-all (< 2.17), lsb-core (<= 3.2-27), lsb-core (<= 3.2-27), nscd (< 2.17), nscd (< 2.17), libc6 (!= 2.17-97)
    Replaces: libc6-amd64, libc6-amd64, libc6 (< 2.17-97)
    Provides: glibc-2.17-1
    Description: Embedded GNU C Library: Shared libraries
     Contains the standard libraries that are used by nearly all programs on the system. This package includes shared versions of the
     standard C library and the standard math library, as well as many others.
    Homepage: http://www.eglibc.org
    So yeah, Debian does use eglibc rather than glibc.

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred14 View Post
    There was a switch a few years back from baselayout1 to baselayout2. If that's when they introduced OpenRC
    Yes, it was then. OpenRC replaced gentoo's own homebrew scripted init system. Not sure if it had a name except "baselayout1".
    Both use sysvinit.

    OpenRC was developed as a direct replacement, and upgrading to it was mostly painless. Mostly.


    That said, I hardly consider it mature and stable. Features like parallel startup oscillate between "experimental", "deprecated", "removed" and back to "experimental", and 5 years into developement, they can't even get that right - which hints at deep architectural flaws. Updates silently changed the the semantics of dependency resolution or hotplugging, causing some of my services to stop working the way I want them to.


    I think OpenRC was a suitable replacement for Gentoo's previous system, but it's no contender.

    Quote Originally Posted by phred14 View Post
    When Gentoo dropped gnome-3.8 and systemd on us it was sudden and without warning
    I'm not sure where systemd was "dropped on us". Unless you choose a profile that ends with /systemd, or manually enable the systemd use flag, you'll keep using openrc.


    I've migrated my desktop to systemd. A lot of packages are still missing systemd service files, so you need to do quite some manual configuration. If you've been using static networking in /etc/conf.d/net, that will stop working, and you need to migrate to net-misc/netctl. I wish someone had told me about that before I rebooted ~~


    So yeah, on gentoo systemd is s a choice, the integration is still beta-ish, but it boots way faster than openrc ever did.

  8. #178
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    I don't know if anybody noticed, but the state of the sysvinit package changed in debian. Before, it was a vital package, requiring the user to type the horrible sentence "yes I know what I'm doing" if you wanted to install systemd-sysv, but now it is at the same level than systemd-sysv and upstart, which means that you can easily install any of the three.

    So it is easier for everybody to test the init systems by themselves and see if something breaks.

    Also: thanks for the correction on eglibc.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohcQaH View Post
    Yes, it was then. OpenRC replaced gentoo's own homebrew scripted init system. Not sure if it had a name except "baselayout1".
    Both use sysvinit.

    OpenRC was developed as a direct replacement, and upgrading to it was mostly painless. Mostly.


    That said, I hardly consider it mature and stable. Features like parallel startup oscillate between "experimental", "deprecated", "removed" and back to "experimental", and 5 years into developement, they can't even get that right - which hints at deep architectural flaws. Updates silently changed the the semantics of dependency resolution or hotplugging, causing some of my services to stop working the way I want them to.


    I think OpenRC was a suitable replacement for Gentoo's previous system, but it's no contender.


    I'm not sure where systemd was "dropped on us". Unless you choose a profile that ends with /systemd, or manually enable the systemd use flag, you'll keep using openrc.


    I've migrated my desktop to systemd. A lot of packages are still missing systemd service files, so you need to do quite some manual configuration. If you've been using static networking in /etc/conf.d/net, that will stop working, and you need to migrate to net-misc/netctl. I wish someone had told me about that before I rebooted ~~


    So yeah, on gentoo systemd is s a choice, the integration is still beta-ish, but it boots way faster than openrc ever did.
    OpenRC actually runs faster for me with a little tweaking. After trying to install systemd the first time and ending up with an unbootable system, I won't be touching that again with a 10 foot pole.

  10. #180
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    Upstart is an event-based replacement for the /sbin/init daemon which handles ... them during shutdown and supervising them while the system is running.

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