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Thread: Wayland 1.3 Release Candidates Are Now Out

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    The license is a red herring. It doesn't really matter that much, GPLv3 license is fine, and if Canonical wants to make money with a dual-licensing scheme, that's their right and entirely acceptable.

    What matters more is that Mir is developed in such a way that no other DE can even consider it feasible to support it. Mir is being developed for Unity only, it's tailored for Canonical's needs and not anyone else's, Canonical makes no promises to maintain any kind of compatibility with any alternative implementations, or even compatibility within their own releases - they've explicitly stated that they will not maintain a stable server-side API. This is not a software that is suitable for various needs and use cases. Especially, when there is already Wayland, which is made to run everywhere and suit everyone's needs. So it really makes no sense for anyone other than Canonical to support Mir. There's no benefit in it to anyone else.

    When Intel starts selling their Tizen-based ultrabooks, they're going to increase the Linux marketshare more than Ubuntu ever did. Intel has enough power and resources to bring Linux to the reach of average consumers, in regular retail stores, right next to win8 laptops. People can compare and contrast, see how much better Tizen runs (with Wayland) when compared to win8.

    So Canonical is really making a bad mistake with Mir. They're fighting a battle they have no chance of winning, and it will end badly for them unless they repent. I hope it doesn't come to that.
    What makes you think that Tizen was conceived for "the benefit of everybody else"?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen

    The operating system itself consists of many open source components. A number of components internally developed by Samsung (e.g. boot animation, calendar, task manager, music player applications) are however released under the Flora License which is most likely incompatible with requirements of the Open Source Initiative. Therefore it is not known whether the native application framework and its graphical components can be legally utilized for Free and Open Source Software such as GPL applications.
    Let me remind you that behing Tizen there is not only Intel but really Samsung. A company obvioulsy interested in the smarthphone and tablet market dominance. Their bussines is hardware, not advertisement , so they are not interested in spreding adware (Android) like Google does. Their dream, like any other company, is to have total control over the software too, so they are backing up software that eventually will fit their needs . So these are not "Tizen-based intel ultrabooks for the community ", there are Samsung ultrabooks with corporate profits in mind. Sadly, there is an obvious conflict of interests with Canonical who is on their way.

    At the end, Samsung and Intel can just trash it if their strategies change, just like HP did, jut like Nkia did. Oh! and just like Intel itself did with Tizen ancestors. That's the real world deal.

    The whole point of GPL-like licences is not just to "modify the source code for the benefit of anybody else". You are entiled to grab any open source code and modify it for your own personal interests. The license requieres you to publish the source code along with the binaries if you happen to publish your binaries for whatever reason you do it. There is no benefit for the comunity if there is no individual benefit.

    You can fork MIR or Wayland , IF you want for whatever reason you can imagine. There are no arbitrary moral clausules nor obligations in any opensource license.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    What makes you think that Tizen was conceived for "the benefit of everybody else"?
    Tizen is a collaborative project and a registered trademark of The Linux Foundation.

    What makes you think that "the beneficit of everbody else" is not part of its DNA ?

    Let me remind you that behing Tizen there is not only Intel but really Samsung. A company obvioulsy interested in the smarthphone and tablet market dominance. Their bussines is hardware, not advertisement , so they are not interested in spreding adware (Android) like Google does. Their dream, like any other company, is to have total control over the software too, so they are backing up software that eventually will fit their needs . So these are not "Tizen-based intel ultrabooks for the community ", there are Samsung ultrabooks with corporate profits in mind. Sadly, there is an obvious conflict of interests with Canonical who is on their way.

    At the end, Samsung and Intel can just trash it if their strategies change, just like HP did, jut like Nkia did. Oh! and just like Intel itself did with Tizen ancestors. That's the real world deal.

    The whole point of GPL-like licences is not just to "modify the source code for the benefit of anybody else". You are entiled to grab any open source code and modify it for your own personal interests. The license requieres you to publish the source code along with the binaries if you happen to publish your binaries for whatever reason you do it. There is no benefit for the community if there is no individual benefit.

    You can fork MIR or Wayland , IF you want for whatever reason you can imagine. There are no arbitrary moral clausules nor obligations in any opensource license.
    Yes, the Tizen Association is led by a Board of Directors from Samsung, Intel. But also from Huawei, Fujitsu, NEC, Panasonic, KT, Sprint, SK Telecom, Orange, NTT Docomo, Vodafone,... Don't you think the real "real world deal" is there with many companies working together on a collaborative project ?

    Moreover Tizen is an operating system... whereas Mir/Wayland are only display servers.
    Since nobody expects that big players will suddenly publish every bit of their source code, what paramounts here is that the component we are talking about, Wayland protocol implementation, remains published under a GPL-compatible license and can be modified for anybody personal interests.

    And if The Linux Foundation can deal with it, IMHO we also can.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dh04000 View Post
    I wasn't aware GPL was ever unfair.
    Canonical can relicense your code under any license they want. Nobody else can do this. Then you have to trust a company. I'd rather not. Simple said: maybe current management is fine, but what if they're taken over? E.g. MySQL->Sun->Oracle. FSF at least guarantees to only ever change it to a similar free software license and still I don't like it that they have special powers.

  4. #14
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    I don't like Canonical's Mir project, and I was already soured to Ubuntu when Canonical introduced adware into it, so I too support the idea of an OS to replace Ubuntu as the primary entry point for new users into free software. However, I get the impression that Tizen is actually worse for software freedom than Ubuntu is. My impression comes from not seeing very much activity around Tizen outside Intel and Samsung, and lack of trust in Intel's (and, to a less degree, Samsung's) motives. Although Intel has come far in their support of open source software, I still believe that their track record of working to increase vendor lock-in and reduce user freedom outweighs their more recent efforts.

    However, I do not follow Tizen development and openly admit that my impressions are based on very poor information. If anyone can reasonably argue that I am wrong about Tizen, I'll happily admit my mistake.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    However, I get the impression that Tizen is actually worse for software freedom than Ubuntu is.
    Well it's getting better. Here's a document worth reading about the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    Although Intel has come far in their support of open source software...
    They really have... Guess who is the most active developer behind the de facto bluetoot stack, Bluez, on Linux? Intel. Guess who is the primary developer behind Wayland/Weston? Intel. How about oFono (used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, MeeGo, Tizen (next version I think))? Intel. How about Mesa? Intel. ConnMan, the network stack used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, Tizen...? Intel... and so on and so forth. They are also the second most active company in Linux developement. Red Hat is the only company to surpass them in contributions to the GNU/Linux stack overall and no one else comes even close.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teho View Post
    Well it's getting better. Here's a document worth reading about the subject.

    They really have... Guess who is the most active developer behind the de facto bluetoot stack, Bluez, on Linux? Intel. Guess who is the primary developer behind Wayland/Weston? Intel. How about oFono (used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, MeeGo, Tizen (next version I think))? Intel. How about Mesa? Intel. ConnMan, the network stack used by Sailfish, Ubuntu Touch, Tizen...? Intel... and so on and so forth. They are also the second most active company in Linux developement. Red Hat is the only company to surpass them in contributions to the GNU/Linux stack overall and no one else comes even close.
    The document you linked didn't load for me. Would you happen to have a cleaner version of that link handy?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    The document you linked didn't load for me. Would you happen to have a cleaner version of that link handy?
    Whoops, here you go.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teho View Post
    Whoops, here you go.
    Thank you for the link. I found the document interesting, but I don't think it is relevant to the discussion here. However, you appear to be convinced that Tizen will result in a more free OS, and it appears that you are much more familiar with Tizen, so I'm going to defer to your judgement.
    Last edited by Serge; 09-23-2013 at 08:56 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    What makes you think that Tizen was conceived for "the benefit of everybody else"?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
    Have I claimed that it was?

    I don't really see the point in your argument here.


    Let me remind you that behing Tizen there is not only Intel but really Samsung. A company obvioulsy interested in the smarthphone and tablet market dominance. Their bussines is hardware, not advertisement , so they are not interested in spreding adware (Android) like Google does. Their dream, like any other company, is to have total control over the software too, so they are backing up software that eventually will fit their needs . So these are not "Tizen-based intel ultrabooks for the community ", there are Samsung ultrabooks with corporate profits in mind. Sadly, there is an obvious conflict of interests with Canonical who is on their way.
    And Canonical obviously isn't wanting to make a profit, right? They just put ads in the dash for fun...

    You need to understand that Tizen isn't really just one monolithic operating system. It's at least three operating systems: mobile, PC and IVI. Even then, there's many optional parts that individual hardware vendors may choose to add or leave out. Samsung is in it for the mobile, they are mainly interested in smartphones, maybe some tablets. And Samsung may want a platform they have more control in, there's no doubt about that, but that's not any worse than Android. At least Tizen is based on Glibc, Wayland and other technologies that have much more in common with actual Linux distros than Android does.

    But I don't really care about the mobile Tizen. Sailfish is more interesting on the mobile side anyway (IMHO). I care about the PC Tizen, the one that will run on Intel ultrabooks, which are of course x86-based, and will have Intel GPUs. It's the perfect combination: latest Intel tech, best Intel GPUs, Wayland and no need to worry about drivers because Intel... Intel has already demoed an ultrabook running Tizen. They had the Steam client already working on it. The PC Tizen will use Gnome Shell as the DE, with a Tizen-specific extension called "Tizen shell".

    At the end, Samsung and Intel can just trash it if their strategies change, just like HP did, jut like Nkia did. Oh! and just like Intel itself did with Tizen ancestors. That's the real world deal.
    Oh well, if we're gonna start speculating things without any basis on facts... the guys who hold the launch codes to all the nukes may just decide to trash the entire world, one day...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    I care about the PC Tizen, the one that will run on Intel ultrabooks, which are of course x86-based, and will have Intel GPUs. It's the perfect combination: latest Intel tech, best Intel GPUs, Wayland and no need to worry about drivers because Intel... Intel has already demoed an ultrabook running Tizen. They had the Steam client already working on it. The PC Tizen will use Gnome Shell as the DE, with a Tizen-specific extension called "Tizen shell".

    Oh well, if we're gonna start speculating things without any basis on facts... the guys who hold the launch codes to all the nukes may just decide to trash the entire world, one day...
    I have seen people post about the Tizen PC before, do you have any facts about Intels intention to build such a PC? Or are you yourself just speculating? Have I missed some announcement? The way I saw their demo of Tizen on a PC is the IT industry equivalent of the concept car in the auto industry. Basically they are trying out ideas showing off their technologies but have no real intention to turn it into a real product. Intel has been doing this for years first with Moblin, then with Meego and now with Tizen. I would be very surprised if they actually launched a product themselves.

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