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Thread: GNOME Shell 3.10 Is Ready To Shine On Wayland

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honton View Post
    Maybe not. I feel the same way about off topic kernels.
    Maybe not? So you know me better than I do?
    Furthermore, does the discussion of kernels insult you? Does it belittle your lifestyle choice in some way? Or do you just dislike anything that isn't Linux and GTK?
    I've got my money on the latter.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    They have been working on it and technically it's in beta testing rather than just being experimental, so yes the Wikipedia article is a little stale. I hope that eventually that this will eventually give those systems that choose not to adopt systemd for whatever reason the option to also keep up to date with software and not be limited by a project's artificial dependency on features exclusive to systemd.
    So Android will use Upstart? Show me some evidence! Or you mean you can put Ubuntu/Unity on an Android phone? Is not really the same.

    For your "artificial dependency", please show me where OpenRC has the features systemd has. E.g. login session, logind, vt switching, etc. Why would every Desktop Environment reimplement things multiple times instead of just relying on systemd? Note that Enlightment is also doing the same, so…

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    Why would every Desktop Environment reimplement things multiple times instead of just relying on systemd? Note that Enlightment is also doing the same, so…
    Why implement multiple Desktop Environments instead of just relying on one? Why implementing multiple distros instead of just relying on one? Why have multiple browsers, text editors, programming languages, ...?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    Why implement multiple Desktop Environments instead of just relying on one? Why implementing multiple distros instead of just relying on one? Why have multiple browsers, text editors, programming languages, ...?
    As long as all desktop environments bring something to the table, sure. But why are developers forced to the least common feature base of init systems, when a new init system actually brings benefits?
    Let's make an analogy to web pages. Do you think it is reasonable that we only build web sites that have to be compatible with, say Internet Explorer 1.0? As in: no web features beyond what was available in the 1990's.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    Why implement multiple Desktop Environments instead of just relying on one? Why implementing multiple distros instead of just relying on one? Why have multiple browsers, text editors, programming languages, ...?
    That is not what I was asking. Why would a desktop environment rely on multiple init systems. Basically adding yet another abstraction layer? What you're saying that multiple exists. Cool, there are multiple and systemd offers the most, is used on most distributions and most importantly, most/all of the GNOME developers know it and use it. If you want another init system, then do some work and add support for something alternative. At the moment, there is still nothing going on within ConsoleKit, still no progress with separating logind from systemd. Various distributions rather add a systemd dependency than to do development.

    As said often before, often also to you: talk is cheap.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    So Android will use Upstart? Show me some evidence! Or you mean you can put Ubuntu/Unity on an Android phone? Is not really the same.

    For your "artificial dependency", please show me where OpenRC has the features systemd has. E.g. login session, logind, vt switching, etc. Why would every Desktop Environment reimplement things multiple times instead of just relying on systemd? Note that Enlightment is also doing the same, so…
    I never said Android will use Upstart, I just said they will never transfer to systemd, and I will add it's because of their own requirement to keep their entire userland under an Apache2 license, something which systemd could never do under its current license.

    And OpenRC has doesn't have all features, of systemd, it does have features that Gnome uses in logind such as the ability to kill all processes in a service's cgroup, here: http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitwe...d4dc831eeb79c3

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I never said Android will use Upstart, I just said they will never transfer to systemd, and I will add it's because of their own requirement to keep their entire userland under an Apache2 license, something which systemd could never do under its current license. And OpenRC has doesn't have all features, of systemd, it does have features that Gnome uses in logind such as the ability to kill all processes in a service's cgroup, here: http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitwe...d4dc831eeb79c3
    You are overstating something here. They don't have a mandatory requirement to keep everything in userspace under the Apache license and in specific cases they have accepted even GPL'ed user space ex: bluetooth interfaces and systemd a while back moved from GPL to LGPL so they could take it and none of the other components would be affected. The interfaces are more important here than the specific implementation of the init system. If openrc or upstart or whatever else gains more of the features and exposes it via the same interfaces, there isn't a problem. Of course, standardizing on the implementation would be nice but standardizing on the interfaces is good enough.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I never said Android will use Upstart, I just said they will never transfer to systemd, and I will add it's because of their own requirement to keep their entire userland under an Apache2 license, something which systemd could never do under its current license.

    And OpenRC has doesn't have all features, of systemd, it does have features that Gnome uses in logind such as the ability to kill all processes in a service's cgroup, here: http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitwe...d4dc831eeb79c3
    Android will also not use GNOME. Android will also not use KDE, or OpenRC, or Upstart. Similarly, Windows will not use systemd, KDE, OpenRC, or Upstart. Talking about Android is really interesting, but kind of pointless in relation to GNOME using systemd or logind or not.

    OpenRC only got that cgroup feature after a Gentoo GNOME packager added it. Furthermore, OpenRC Bugzilla has bugs about it. Also, I think you're confusing logind and systemd here, because AFAIK, cgroup handling belongs to systemd, not logind. This is really something minor, logind is more about tracking logins/sessions. Further it seems in future it would handle VT switching or some replacement for this.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    Android will also not use GNOME. Android will also not use KDE, or OpenRC, or Upstart. Similarly, Windows will not use systemd, KDE, OpenRC, or Upstart. Talking about Android is really interesting, but kind of pointless in relation to GNOME using systemd or logind or not.
    I wasted post after post after post trying to explain here that Android is irrelevant in a GNOME discussion because of that fact, and the user I was arguing with (I don't remember who it was by now) didn't seem to pay a bit of attention to that fact.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    Android will also not use GNOME. Android will also not use KDE, or OpenRC, or Upstart. Similarly, Windows will not use systemd, KDE, OpenRC, or Upstart. Talking about Android is really interesting, but kind of pointless in relation to GNOME using systemd or logind or not.

    OpenRC only got that cgroup feature after a Gentoo GNOME packager added it. Furthermore, OpenRC Bugzilla has bugs about it. Also, I think you're confusing logind and systemd here, because AFAIK, cgroup handling belongs to systemd, not logind. This is really something minor, logind is more about tracking logins/sessions. Further it seems in future it would handle VT switching or some replacement for this.
    Android and Chrome OS are the biggest users of the Linux kernel that consumers actively use, that fact won't be changing for some time.
    If systemd wants to become THE Linux init system, it has to be used on these platforms to get a majority of the Linux market share.

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