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Thread: GNOME Display Settings Now Working On Wayland

  1. #51
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    Default CSD vs SSD

    I have been reading and thinking about CSD vs SSD a long time and this is what I think:

    CSD
    +Flexibility
    +Simplifies Wayland implementations
    +Cleaner speration of conserns, a compositor shouldn't do any rendering of gui
    -Can't impose graphical conformity regarding to decorations, the user experience can be confusing if every Application/toolkit chooses to go their own way
    +Better model for a voluntary graphical conformity , a system "GUI theming and settings" system that is toolkit agnostic giving applications and toolkits information/hints how to render in a conforming manner

    SSD
    +Impose Conformity and make the user experience less confused and integrated
    -Adds complexity for the Wayland implementation and do break separtion of conserns
    -Harder to implement custom GUI design - for a minority applications and use cases the "GUI defaults" are not an optimal solution

    I think KDE's decision to use SSD in KDE 5 may be the right and rational decision for them (and only for them). I don't know much about KDE but all software projects live with a legacy, as I understand KDE has always tried to achive a nice conformity in the user experience, even with "alien" toolkits like gtk+. For KDE to rewrite everything and change core principles in a short time span and such new and unknown technology as Wayland, would be impossible. Maybe in KDE 6 there are a time for such work.
    Last edited by Bulldog; 08-16-2013 at 03:51 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #52
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    CSD
    +Simplifies Wayland implementations
    +Cleaner speration of conserns, a compositor shouldn't do any rendering of gui
    -Can't impose graphical conformity regarding to decorations, the user experience can be confusing if every Application/toolkit chooses to go their own way
    - Additional work for application developers who don't need the flexibility
    - Can't impose HIG conformity
    - Makes handling of application freezes and hangups much more difficult
    - Makes handling different system form-factors more complex for applications
    + Simplifies some graphical effects like window distortion
    + (or - depending on your perspective) Simplifies weird-shaped windows like ovals

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    +Flexibility
    + Increased flexibility for applications
    - Decreased flexibility for window managers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    +Better model for a voluntary graphical conformity , a system "GUI theming and settings" system that is toolkit agnostic giving applications and toolkits information/hints how to render in a conforming manner
    You mean better potential model. This does not exist yet, and given the history with theming and HIG compatibility between toolkits almost certainly never will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    SSD
    No point repeating the stuff above.

    But this all assumes that SSD or CSD is mandated, rather than something like we have now where SSD is the default but applications can choose to use CSD.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    - Decreased flexibility for window managers
    I thought window managers wouldn't be used with Wayland, that windows management was integrated with the compositor with the exception for compositor specific addons?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    I thought window managers wouldn't be used with Wayland, that windows management was integrated with the compositor with the exception for compositor specific addons?
    I never said it had to be a stand-alone window manager. A compositor that does window management is also, by definition, a window manager.

    But this isn't really relevant to my post, which wasn't Wayland-specific but talking more generally about the relative benefits of the two approaches.

    For the record, I don't think Wayland mandates that window management be handled by the compositor. The compositor could conceivably pass along window management-related information to another program which actually manages the windows. Whether that is a good approach or not is another question.
    Last edited by TheBlackCat; 08-16-2013 at 08:29 AM.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    I have been reading and thinking about CSD vs SSD a long time and this is what I think:

    CSD
    +Flexibility
    +Simplifies Wayland implementations
    +Cleaner speration of conserns, a compositor shouldn't do any rendering of gui
    -Can't impose graphical conformity regarding to decorations, the user experience can be confusing if every Application/toolkit chooses to go their own way
    -Adds complexity to client programs
    +Better model for a voluntary graphical conformity , a system "GUI theming and settings" system that is toolkit agnostic giving applications and toolkits information/hints how to render in a conforming manner

    SSD
    +Impose Conformity and make the user experience less confused and integrated
    -Adds complexity for the Wayland implementation and do break separtion of conserns
    -Harder to implement custom GUI design - for a minority applications and use cases the "GUI defaults" are not an optimal solution
    I added a point, and made bold a phrase I see no reason for. A compositor shouldn't do any rendering of GUI? That's something to argue about. Should the app care about it? As I see it, the app cares about solving a problem, and this decorations just add boilerplate to solving it.
    Anyway, my concerns could be fixed with the use of some decorations library, where you'd only have to call a function to draw a standard decoration if you don't have esoteric ones.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxjen View Post
    For example firefox on windows with the tabs in the decoration looks much neater than on linux.
    Tabs in the decoration always look like dog vomit, regardless of CSD or SSD

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by KellyClowers View Post
    Tabs in the decoration always look like dog vomit, regardless of CSD or SSD
    What ? This is one of the best features of modern browsers. Tastes & colors...

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
    What ? This is one of the best features of modern browsers. Tastes & colors...
    It's still a corner case. It's great on Firefox and Chrome and such, but mostly useless (or at least something most will not take advantage from) on most cases, and extra work if CSD is mandated.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom_Oo7 View Post
    What ? This is one of the best features of modern browsers. Tastes & colors...
    If by best, you mean worst, sure.

  10. #60
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    its funny way more then just the GNOME display settings are working on Wayland 97% of the main Gnome Apps work on Wayland

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