Canonical Continues Working On XMir Performance

[synaptix]

So anybody who disagrees with you is a troll? But of course. The wayland fanbois hate being told that they are not the center of the universe.

I've lurked this forum for quite some time now and only recently signed up. I've made close attention to the vomit you spew out here, some of which doesn't make any sense and my opinion of you as a troll is that you are a terrible troll.

I never did say I was a Wayland fanboy. I'm happy with Xorg and I'm happy Xubuntu will continue on the Xorg road until they move to Wayland. I like Wayland, because it's like Xorg on steroids. It fixes all the problems that Xorg currently has, considering Wayland is developed by Xorg devs.

The entire world and practically the entire Linux community is supporting Wayland. Canonical heavily supported Wayland and Shuttleworth did state that Ubuntu "WILL" use Wayland in the future (keywords here being 'heavily supported' and 'will').

Canonical just pulled a move like a company called Microsoft would pull. Unlike the Windows community, the Linux community actually cares about what goes on in it's camp. A move like Mir is what causes unneeded chaos and havoc in the Linux camp.

[synaptix]

2. Mir has on-paper support from GPU makers such as AMD and Nvidia. Wayland has none. Wayland will become the geeky choice for the Ubuntu-haters, and Mir will become the choice for regular users who would prefer good 3D performance over "freedom".

3. You'll see other distros either adopt Mir as an option, or sink further into irrelevance. Either way, Mir will be THE display server for hip young Linux users

1. I'm guessing AMD/NVIDIA will both jump ship away from Mir when they see only Canonical/Ubuntu supports it.

2. Ubuntu is basically going to be the only one with Mir. All it's derivatives will be staying with Xorg and eventually going with Wayland. Kubuntu and Xubuntu both plan to use Wayland. Linux Mint stated they won't use Mir and will be using Wayland in the future (they are stickin to Xorg as well). Debian itself is most likely staying with Xorg for foreseeable future. Fedora and Arch I have no idea (haven't heard anything with them).

[Vim_User]

Again jolla doesn't exist.

http://jolla.com/

1. Wayland development will speed up to a furious pace to compete with Mir, which will benefit all distros that may ship Wayland in the future.

Source?

2. Mir has on-paper support from GPU makers such as AMD and Nvidia.

Wayland will become the geeky choice for the Ubuntu-haters, and Mir will become the choice for regular users who would prefer good 3D performance over "freedom".

So where are your performance comparisons to back up the claim that Mir would have better performance? Or do you mean your non-existent source that AMD/Nvidia deliver closed source drivers for Mir? Do you really think that they will not provide those drivers for the people they make the money with, not the young hipsters (they go to Apple anyways), but the workstation market, where Ubuntu is basically non-existent?

*all this is assuming that Mir doesn't become abandonware, or that it doesn't end off being a total schmozzle.

Now you start the backpedaling?

Again, you don't answer the questions to backup your claims, so I summarize them here to make it easier for you:
- When again will we see an Ubuntu/Mir phone in the mass market?
- When will we see Mir deployed as default option for the mass market?
- Where is the link to your source that AMD/Nvidia develop drivers for Mir?
- Where are your sources that such drivers will not be available for Wayland?

[jrch2k8]

Again jolla doesn't exist. Gnome3 isn't a distro.

This is a great response on the current issue:

Re: Mir vs. Wayland & effect on Linux "Ecosystem"?

The effect:

1. Wayland development will speed up to a furious pace to compete with Mir, which will benefit all distros that may ship Wayland in the future.

2. Mir has on-paper support from GPU makers such as AMD and Nvidia. Wayland has none. Wayland will become the geeky choice for the Ubuntu-haters, and Mir will become the choice for regular users who would prefer good 3D performance over "freedom".

3. You'll see other distros either adopt Mir as an option, or sink further into irrelevance. Either way, Mir will be THE display server for hip young Linux users

*all this is assuming that Mir doesn't become abandonware, or that it doesn't end off being a total schmozzle.

jolla is here baby http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dba13jdR_zA and have real apps <-- this no demo

1.) wayland is basically ready for developers since december 2012 and 1.2 release just tackled some corner cases reported in that period and it was in the expected implicit release window of next version major toolkit merge window, Mir has change nothing here except maybe some free publicity, christian is not the kinda guy that will lower quality expectations to compete to with some phantom project

1.a) Wayland could have forced the same crap Xmir is with Xwayland[after all XMir is the patches to handle rooted X that were rejected for XWayland] since mid 2012 but everyone believed was better to begin port toolkits to start porting full DE from Q2 2013 until Q2 2014 and again it happened as expected Qt5.1/EFL/gtk-3.10 are mostly done[we are in Q2] and Gnome/KDE/enlighment/LXDE started refactoring their code to remove X code and move it to plugins

2.) not Mir or Wayland have on paper support from any company blob, nVidia just told that maybe if they feel like it could add EGL support for desktop drivers and FGLRX is lost on action and again nVidia/AMD clients are not ubuntu but RedHat Workstations, i mean ubuntu can't generate enough money for this companies to pay the salary of 1 developer, so both wayland and Mir for now depend on open drivers.

3.) not for a while as unity Mir is almost uncompilable outside ubuntu an nothing on planet earth works with outside future unity 8, you don't port an entire toolkit in 2 weeks you know

* technically speaking i don't see how canonical can support those massive costs at long term, if they make it at all. Unless Mir ends as ubuntu phone surfaceflinger and get acceptance enough to get some marketshare

[mrugiero]

You can laugh all you want. Mir is coming in Ubuntu 13.10, the most popular Linux desktop. Wayland comes to Rebecca Linux yay....

Have you tried it? I did, and I can say by experience XMir doesn't say anything good about the Linux desktop. If I'm expecting any user to switch to Ubuntu, I will need to avoid like the plague showing 13.10.

Even while running the desktop environment on XMir it still could provide real value for the user by running Mir as a system compsitor
(requires LightDM to be fully working on pure Mir)
Seamless Login without flickering, jumps and shit.
The greater as lockscreen.
Flicker free shutdown.

I don't know if it will be run as this on 13.10 but pleas don't say that XMir on Mir is worthless for the user.
True you are missing a lot of things that Mir/Wayland could do better but it's far from worthless.

Because those are the things a user care the most. It reminds me of a XKCD strip. Except, this one is useless in every possible scenario.
Even if it would achieve those things, none of those makes using XWHATEVER for the desktop "far from worthless". Maybe it's not quite there on the worthless area, but at most it's around the corner from worthless.
As an extra little thingy, I don't have any of those in my XMir testing, and I can even see every thing I typed within the desktop appearing on a background console as I log off. Which is not really good if you do not want people to see your root password.

Who gives a fuck
The thread is about Xmir performance not about how much better and production ready you believe wayland is.
It would be nice if the trolling Canonical crew would stop derailing every single Ubuntu related thread.Surely you have made your point you prefer wayland. It would be even nicer if the generalisations made that every ubuntu user, community and Canonical developers, are complete morons..... stopped!!

It's a shame your writing style doesn't reflect the 133t genius Gentoo tard you proclaim to be.

I'll address claims in order. The first claim, I don't know what the forum is for if it's not to discuss this kind of thing. When you try to see if something is good, you need something to compare to. But OK, for a minute, I'll stick to XMir's performance: currently, it sucks for basic desktop usage on Xubuntu. I'm testing it, and know from experience.
The second, there is few or none "trolling Canonical", and I didn't saw any from the user you quoted. He only states technical facts, you either like them or not, but trolling and that are far from each other.
And about generalisations on the users, I didn't see any, at least on the last month. What he does, and I do to, is point out BO$$ makes mostly stupid comments. Personally, I can assure that even when I oppose Mir (I stated my reasons to, several times already) I don't judge Canonical users, and I know a lot of smart people using Ubuntu, and I actually was the one who convinced them and installed it for them. I run Xubuntu. All of this doesn't make XMir a less shitty solution, and Canonical puts my reputation within my college and within my friends on stake with such a stupid move, because I recommended them. Mir might actually be good, but XMir is not, and will never be, a good option to run your desktop. If you want to see from a different point of view, imagine running WINE's desktop as your main desktop.
Also, the bad writing might be related to english not being his mother tongue, so the last comment is just discriminating. I know lots of german people (from forums), and their grammar and syntax in english is usually bad, mostly because theirs is too different from english.

are you really this stupid? the unity 7/8 mir road map is pretty clear.
Step 1 unity 7 running on xmir for 13.10 ( of course their are still some things that need to be fixed)
Step 2 unity 8 lands sometime between 13.10 and 14.04 with native mir support so if users/developers wish it can be tested before hitting 14.04 .

The roadmap being clear doesn't make it less nonsense. Running a desktop on top of XMir (or on top of XWayland, just the same) is pointless and stupid. If Unity is not ready to run natively on Mir for 13.10 or 14.04, then just delay it to 14.10, when it's ready, instead of hurting your users with decreased performance for no new features.

I nominate you as one the lamest canonical trolls Phoronix has ever seen.

Even when that user is at times a pathetic troll, the quoted post says something that is probably true. A lot of Ubuntu users might go back to Windows because of this stupid move of running the desktop on XMir. And devs really dislike API breaks.

I think this will actually hurt other desktop environments. People who don't know better will think KDE sucks compared to Unity because it is slow and can't resize windows properly. And they will wonder why it can't even run a lot of applications.(native Mir applications)

Where does the resizing comment come from? In Xubuntu (on XMir) that works correctly. Most problems I'm having are input and performance related.
Specially, text input is awfully slow, and jumpy, the text cursor jumps back and forth, those kind of things, and globbing inside a usual directory takes ~5secs.

Listen up fuckwit

It is not about differing preferences/beliefs its about constant thread derailment. The last thread derailed into a boring 13 page rant about GenPOOOOs superiority and how stupid anyone involved with ubuntu is.

It is not about differing opinions, when every single Mir related thread, gets turned into a wayland fan boy canonical troll fest.

That thread was not Mir related, was Ubuntu related, and someone commented on Gentoo, which is a competing distro. Then BO$$ started trolling, and things derailed because people read and if nobody corrects a stupid poster, he gets the last word, and a reader gets "well, nobody refuted him, he must be right".
About the discussion there, nobody said Ubuntu users were stupid, that I recall. Some said BO$$ is stupid, the others said that Gentoo users tend to be more technically qualified for filling bug reports or maybe even fixing those bugs: guess what, reasons, and valid ones, were given. If you run a distro that requires you to read manuals for it, while having the option to run Ubuntu, chances are you are more interested. This have nothing to do with being intelligent or not, but has A LOT to do with interest. Ubuntu is for general use, while Gentoo is aimed to people interested on the mechanics of their OS. Period.

No i took it up with the person saying it.

Then, do yourself a favor, and reread that post, because it doesn't state Ubuntu users are idiots.

No you cant,nor do i have issue with wayland or Mir. You are just using excuses to justify such blatant derailment.

Sorry you lack the ability to see this as such

How should a not derailed thread go, then? Because there is no discussion that doesn't take other facts than what's already written into account. For that, I'd just copy-paste the article. Is the only real way to avoid going out of scope, and if that's the point, ask Michael to close the forums altogether.

No it just sounds like a pitiful excuse to justify the constant canonical trolling.

Technical arguments are quite the opposite of trolling.

when you adquire the ability required to read C/C++ and understand it professionally you will see why there is no point in XMir and why will be rewritten[aka leach upstream XWayland] for 14.04 and ofc why everybody stays away from it like the pest, until then you can believe whatever you want or go preach your technically baseless opinions in facebook or canonical forums.

I don't think being able to read C/C++ is required to see why there is no point on using XMir, when talking of running a desktop on top of it.

This is the biggest point of Mir
and is something Canonical have talked about for a long time even before someone knew what Wayland where.

I'd very much like to read where it says it "before someone knew what Wayland was".
As for the "XMir is slower than pure X right now", see. Except for marginal differences, XMir will never be faster than X.org for running a desktop, because it can't workaround the things it could if it were running a single app. It requires X to perform the work, and that means it will perform it at the same speed X performs it. It's probably faster already for particular apps, but I didn't see any benchmarks to prove that idea.

Can you stop making shit up? The two mouse cursors is just for testing. You won't be having 2 pointers in the final version ffs.

The rest of your post is just the same crap I'm tired to refute, so I'll just say what is new: you are right on this, and not only it was tagged as critical but reported as fixed (it's still not out of staging, so I couldn't check it out) on 0.0.7.

[dee.]

The Bozley Cycle

1. Bozley trolls everyone with some oneliner comment about how Mir is going to be the best thing since sliced bread, Canonical will win and crush all the basement dwellers, and/or Ubuntu is going to be the bestest and only Linux that every coolkid will use
2. People disagree with Bozley and attempt to make reasonable points
3. Bozley ignores this and makes some outrageous claims about Mir/Ubuntu
4. People prove these claims false, and/or ask bozley for evidence for his outrageous claims
5. Bozley runs circles, moves the goalposts and/or degenerates into another incomprehensible rant about basement dwellers - never providing any evidence for his claims

Rinse and repeat.

[nightmarex]

.... Fedora and Arch I have no idea (haven't heard anything with them).

Arch uses whatever you want it to. With that said Wayland & Weston are already in extra and community repositories. As with Unity (which got brought to Arch) I'm sure Mir will come to Arch as well as it seems to get EVERYTHING. We have some smart bastards who make sure of it.

[Murmex]

As with Unity (which got brought to Arch) I'm sure Mir will come to Arch as well as it seems to get EVERYTHING. We have some smart bastards who make sure of it.

Note that it's not in the official repositories. I have to say that I'm impressed by the work done to bring Unity to Arch, however it still requires Ubuntu-flavoured versions of packages such as glib2, gtk, qt? I suppose that this is one of the biggest issue to officially support Unity in a distribution and from what I've read, it looks like this is also currently a problem with Mir (at least when it comes to make it run on a non-Ubuntu system).

In general, do not mistake packages in AUR and unofficial repositories as supported by Arch, even though the ease to write PKGBUILDs is one of the big advantages of the distribution IMO.

[Alejandro Nova]

Is there a HOWTO for "pulling out an Ubuntu" right now with an up to date distro (Fedora, Arch required) and run a Wayland + XWayland stack right now? Are there any downsides doing that?

[synaptix]

Arch uses whatever you want it to. With that said Wayland & Weston are already in extra and community repositories. As with Unity (which got brought to Arch) I'm sure Mir will come to Arch as well as it seems to get EVERYTHING. We have some smart bastards who make sure of it.

Oh right yea, Arch is BFS (built from scratch) kind of distro. Forgot about that, damned heat here lately making me all sorts of messed up in thinking. xD