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Thread: Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Same apps - you can already run the same apps on the desktop even without having the phone be your desktop. Especially if it's FOSS or web based stuff. I fail to see how that is an argument for using your phone as desktop computer.
    Using phone to have a presentation - again runs to the same issue: if the presentation place already has to have a keyboard, mouse, monitor - why not also have the CPU? With miniature desktop kits and all-in-ones becoming more prominent, it's becoming easier to put the CPU in the monitor, keyboard or heck, why not the mouse. If the CPU can fit in a phone, it can fit into any of those. And you'd still have the option to plug in your phone and remote to it from the desktop.

    Your arguments are good if you're arguing for having good, open remote/sync protocols between the desktop and phone, but having the phone act as the desktop CPU itself (which was the original argument) still makes no sense.
    Same apps not only as in name/features bit also as an interface. Ie. full firefox on a desktop full FF when you plug your mobile on a screen and launch the included desktop. As i said monitors (read:connections) are a bit hairy but as a mouse keyboard you can use the phone itself. The screen can act as a trackpad and you can have a keyboard on it as well (slide to have keyboard appear). CPU is not what i argue about. The "have your personal desktop" everywhere is what i believe would be nice to have.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    They are not unreasonable. When you accept a patch, you accept the responsability of maintaining the code including the patch, which would probably be a nightmare, not only because then every other distribution would have a case to say "hey, but you did accept this distro specific patches!", but because one of the main features Mir announces is to be PROTOCOL AGNOSTIC, and KWin and KDE DEPENDS on having a fixed protocol. You see where this goes? Since they need to know the protocol, which Mir abstracts, they're pretty much screwed even if they have the will to port it. Even if they make it work, since it's protocol agnostic (which is really, really useful to make Unity portable, but pretty much a pain in the ass for everyone that depends on a protocol) it's likely to break the API, then you'd need to make MORE distro specific patches. Not only this would displace resources from other things, but it's known that new code is very likely to introduce new bugs, so they'll probably be distorting for the worse the whole other users' experience with KDE. It's pretty much a reasonable response to not support it altogether. Specially when it's open source: you want KDE on Mir, then fork it regularly and maintain it in your own branch without screwing up all the Wayland and X.org users. That would be what you suggest later, but it's important to keep in mind that it's not just because of a whim, but there are actual valid reasons.
    I'm not saying that the KWin project should be forced to accept Mir patches, no one is saying that. And yes, I understand that it's a big issue on keeping 3rd party contributions up to date and bug free.
    I was saying that the KWin project should not have discounted acceptance of any Mir patches right from the get go without reviewing any code.
    Furthermore, the KWin guys wouldn't be forced to carry buggy patches if it ever came to that, they could easily rip the Mir specific code out if it ever came to that.
    So those issues you raised weren't really issues in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
    Actually that's not what's happening at all. Mir is targeting the same drivers as Wayland and to a lesser extent Android, so any incompatibility argument at this point is FUD, which is ironic because your post was mostly about Mir spreading FUD against Wayland even though they publicly acknowledged this and apologised.
    Is it okay for you to take the other side and not be called a hypocrite?

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so.
    Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.

    Speculation aside:
    Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
    It was told right from the start, that MIR will use the EGL System and wanting Nvidia and others to bring the drivers for the EGL Platform. Wayland wants to use the EGL Platform, too. So there is no need of beeing sore about Ubuntu/Canonical "stealing" the video drivers!

    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    There's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
    There was some false information on the MIR Wiki Page. That was apologized for and it was corrected on the next morning.
    But that is no reason for the mudslinging that especially the KDE site is running since then. While everyone pretends that it could have been the perfect cooperation with ubuntu/Canonical and the Wayland site the time after the MIR announcement (again: the bad wiki site was a big mistake) showed, that there was alot of tension behind the scenes.
    But back to the FUD: The KWIN developer told FUD about ubuntu several times himselv on big interviews and even wanted to send a adhortatory letter because Shuttleworth said in his blog he has " absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir."
    In the ML-thread i see again ubuntu and canonical trying to give a hand to the KDE site and the KDE site again tries to put unity and ubuntu/canonical into a bad light (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/037277.html).

    i do think not accepting distro-specific-patches is a valid reason(, even i think its just a fake-reason just to not support MIR). But working together with ubuntu/canonical to keep kubuntu alive should be on KDE's agenda, too.

  5. #75
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    Well, my post disappeared again. If I'm being moderated, please PM me and delete this post as well, I'd like to know to stop bothering in trying to explain AGAIN what I already said like four times.
    If not, I wonder what is going on.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.
    Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland, but Canonical is working together with NVIDIA towards a more unified driver model sitting on top of EGL.
    Mr. Phoronix speculated about NVidia eventually supportin Wayland, but also linked that to Ubuntu adoption.

    I wonder how you came to such a twisted view.

    Afaik Mir needs EGL and Wayland is also capable of utilizing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Speculation aside:
    Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
    Are you sure about this being a fact? If so, they were surprisingly interested in tweaking their drivers for Valves games the last months.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    Well, my post disappeared again. If I'm being moderated, please PM me and delete this post as well, I'd like to know to stop bothering in trying to explain AGAIN what I already said like four times.
    If not, I wonder what is going on.
    You are (most probably) not being moderated.

    A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    You are (most probably) not being moderated.

    A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.
    Well, then I'll just repeat the apologize in case it wasn't read, and the rest I'm just too bored of rewriting it to put it again.
    The FUD was accidental, I wasn't aware ATM that Wayland only needs EGL to work (thus, the driver developed for Mir should be useful for Wayland too), so I apologize for that.

  9. #79
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    Default NVidia said it was going to Support EGL back at the XDC2012

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.

    Speculation aside:
    Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
    NVidia said it was going to Support EGL back at the XDC2012 its not do to Canonical its just more BS form Canonical
    http://youtu.be/LesAb4sTXgA?t=9m58s

  10. #80
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    OK, writing all the text again, because my posting seems to got lost.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
    MIR wants to use the EGL Platform which is also the target of Wayland. So having concerns that MIR will "steal" the big names driver-support from Wayland is not appropriate here. That was explained several times after the MIR-Announcment. (I think people would have read that when they were not that busy flaming about MIR)


    Quote Originally Posted by mrugiero View Post
    There's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
    The Wikipage about MIR had wrong information. But that was corrected the next morning and it was apologized for. IMHO that was a mistake which lead ubuntu/canonical to change the routines for making anouncments but that should be forgiven. Especially the KDE site used that mistake to start a real mudslinging. Not that prominent KDE Developers take every interview, mailinglist and blogpost to spread FUD about Ubuntu, Unity, MIR and Canonical. They even talk about a possible adhortatory letter because Shuttleworth tried to reach a hand and said he has "absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir." That is just ridiculous how KDE keeps to play the dirty game: Complaining about Ubuntu spreading FUD but ranting about ubuntu-fanboys and spreading FUD about Ubuntu themselves (dangerous rolling release, ubuntu will disregard the desktop, etc). Even in the ML-thread about solving the issue with kubuntu they keep on talking badly about Ubuntu: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/037277.html
    So talking about FUD and pointing only at Ubuntu/Canonical is just one site of the medal.

    I do think not accepting distro-specific patches is valid, even i think its just a fake-argument to not support MIR at all. BUT helping kubuntu and working, together with ubuntu/canonical, on a solution to keep kubuntu alive. I see again some reaching hand from ubuntu/canonical site, but all i see from KDE is just the drama.

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