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  • #61
    Originally posted by dee. View Post
    Or maybe it's just that you don't understand it (or pretend not to in order to make a point of some kind, although it evades me what this point could be).

    - Nowhere in the article is it said that applying fractions to integers or booleans is illogical. That's simply your own misunderstanding.
    - The entire point of the article is that "argument to moderation" is an informal fallacy, one that is perhaps better known as the "golden mean fallacy". The article does not claim that anything in between of two extremes is correct, it actually states the exact opposite: that just because something is a compromise between two extremes does not necessarily make it correct, or even a better alternative to either of the extremes.

    In other words: when you make a claim that something is better or more correct because it's a compromise or average between two extremes, then you are commiting an "argument to moderation" -fallacy. For example: if you claim "people who root for Mir are wrong, people who root for Wayland are wrong, therefore the truth must be something in between" you are commiting an "argument to moderation", a fallacy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy
    Nope.
    "some people root for Mir, some people root for Wayland, therefore the truth must be something else" => "argument to moderation"
    "people who root for Mir are wrong, people who root for Wayland are wrong, therefore the truth must be something else" => valid statement (although not very informational)

    (I took the liberty to change "something in between" by "something else" because in between does not mean much)

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Pajn View Post
      No, Gnome and KDE have plans for when they will support Wayland (which is good, a DE shouldn't do anything more than that).
      But no one actually have plans for when to use Wayland. Even Wayland itself may not be ready for full use by the time
      Canonical have plans to only use Mir.
      It was already mentioned before.

      GNOME 3.10: Wayland beta
      GNOME 3.12: Wayland fully working (with X still being supported, but main focus on Wayland)

      About 60% of GNOME applications (as released in GNOME 3.8) already work under Wayland.

      Wayland will be usable when it is. No one is rushing it to be done earlier than that. And with the goal of having a perfect API
      it will take some time, that is truth.
      Developing software for todays needs (Mir) is easy, developing software for tomorrows needs (Wayland) is very difficult.
      As mentioned, 60% of the GNOME applications already work.

      Regarding Mir: They advised GNOME that the focus is solely on Unity. Meaning: it is crazy to rely on that.

      Just some actual facts...

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
        Mir works with Android drivers so at least on ARM NVidia will at least indirectly support Mir.
        That is not something developed by Mir or Canonical. They took an existing project which focussed on Wayland and made it work for Mir while keeping the changes to themselves. Since the announcement Canonical has pushed those changes back. Or in other words: Wayland had Android support before Mir, now they more of less have the same level of support AFAIK.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by erendorn View Post
          Nope.
          "some people root for Mir, some people root for Wayland, therefore the truth must be something else" => "argument to moderation"
          "people who root for Mir are wrong, people who root for Wayland are wrong, therefore the truth must be something else" => valid statement (although not very informational)

          (I took the liberty to change "something in between" by "something else" because in between does not mean much)
          You're wrong on both accounts. By changing "in between" to "something else" you're changing the entire message of the statement, effectively creating a strawman argument (which by the way is also an informal fallacy, way to go full circle). "In between" is actually much more informative than something else: if you say "not 5, not 20, but something in between" we know a range for the answer. If you say "not 5, not 20, but something else", then the answer can be anything from an infinite set of numbers, excluding 5 and 20.

          Even after changing the part of the statement to suit your needs, both of your statements are still wrong. The first one is not an argument to moderation, as it does not imply that the truth should be a compromise between two extremes (because you changed the wording to "something else" which does not imply a compromise or average).

          The second one is also not a valid statement, because it's begging the question. The statement asserts without evidence that people who root for Mir/Wayland are wrong, then makes a conclusion based on this unfounded assertion, which renders the conclusion itself invalid.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by bwat47 View Post
            Fedora plans to USE it by default by fedora 21: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/piper...ch/180546.html

            Other distros will follow suit (obviously more bleeding edge distros like fedora will be the first to use it by default). Saying that no distros have plans to use it is incorrect.
            Oh, didn't know that. I thought something like that should have made it to Phoronix. Michel seems to post every litle thing he can get over so why shouldn't he have posted this huge milestone?

            But I stand corrected. However I still believe Mir will be in a better state before Wayland (Wayland may have more features not used by Unity, but that isn't the point with this argument).

            Originally posted by bkor View Post
            It was already mentioned before.

            GNOME 3.10: Wayland beta
            GNOME 3.12: Wayland fully working (with X still being supported, but main focus on Wayland)

            About 60% of GNOME applications (as released in GNOME 3.8) already work under Wayland.

            As mentioned, 60% of the GNOME applications already work.
            As I said use, not work. But bwat47 have already pointed out that Fedora 21 will use Wayland.
            Originally posted by bkor View Post
            Regarding Mir: They advised GNOME that the focus is solely on Unity. Meaning: it is crazy to rely on that.

            Just some actual facts...
            Canonical only cares for Unity on Mir in the way that they will not make sure other DEs work (or they will as they want atleast kubuntu on the train, they arn't very clear on that point)
            But they do care about a stable API so if you port Gnome to Mir it shouldn't brake more often than necessary (as with Wayland)
            The protocol stability is not a top priority yet. Because it's totally hidden behind the API. Protocol changes can still occur with careful package versioning. Because we can continue to release updates to the shared mir client library, with opaque changes to the protocol.

            It's the API/ABI we need to stabilize sooner because we can't control the release of third-party apps/toolkits/shells once they start appearing.

            The protocol details don't matter until/unless you have multiple implementations the protocol. And for Mir, that's a long way off.
            Originally posted by bkor View Post
            That is not something developed by Mir or Canonical. They took an existing project which focussed on Wayland and made it work for Mir while keeping the changes to themselves. Since the announcement Canonical has pushed those changes back. Or in other words: Wayland had Android support before Mir, now they more of less have the same level of support AFAIK.
            Well libhybris wasn't done or working when Canonical "took" it so no Wayland didn't have Android support by that time even though there were some good progress.
            However libhybris is open source so people shouldn't be angry if people "take" their work, if so they should have licensed it with a proprietary license in the first place.

            Now I think I'm done with this thread. I don't care which display server "wins" neither in the long run or in time to market. I have said what I think and I can't do much more than that, if someone thinks different it doesn?t matter. What matters is that Linux hopefully gets at least one good display server that can handle todays needs and on that will stand up for tomorrows.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by dee. View Post
              You're wrong on both accounts. By changing "in between" to "something else" you're changing the entire message of the statement, effectively creating a strawman argument (which by the way is also an informal fallacy, way to go full circle). "In between" is actually much more informative than something else: if you say "not 5, not 20, but something in between" we know a range for the answer. If you say "not 5, not 20, but something else", then the answer can be anything from an infinite set of numbers, excluding 5 and 20.

              Even after changing the part of the statement to suit your needs, both of your statements are still wrong. The first one is not an argument to moderation, as it does not imply that the truth should be a compromise between two extremes (because you changed the wording to "something else" which does not imply a compromise or average).

              The second one is also not a valid statement, because it's begging the question. The statement asserts without evidence that people who root for Mir/Wayland are wrong, then makes a conclusion based on this unfounded assertion, which renders the conclusion itself invalid.
              Looks like someone recently took a logic course and feels a deep need to try to flex their new vocabulary.

              Anyway, this isn't a logical argument being made and attempting to apply text book formulas is silly at best. It's my personal opinion that I'm basing my assertion on and not some deep logical evaluation. You as an individual are of course free to believe whatever you wish in terms of whether it matters or not that those folks are focusing on what will in the end likely prove to be entirely inconsequential to the way events unfold.

              It's my assertion based on opinion that regardless of whatever merits either camp that seems so passionate has, the end result will not be affected by nor affect those camps. Hence they are irrelevant to the ultimate outcome. Whatever relevance they have to each other is immaterial to the discussion at hand. Hint: this is a message board thread regarding new features and not "Does Canonical suck?" or "Is Wayland awesome?".

              If you want to continue to be pedantic, feel free. I'm just not interested in having an uninteresting exercise in logical evaluation on what isn't a logic based argument.

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