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Thread: Some opinions wanted (at a crossroads between Windows and Linux)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    I have been using Microsoft software since I was old enough to touch a computer. That was during the Windows 3.1 days where Windows was just a GUI layer for DOS.

    Yes, we did have an issue with opening Office 97 docs because garbage started appearing in the files. To those people, we just made a simple phone call and said "Your file contains garbage, are you using Word 97? Please Save As Word 6.0/95 so I can read it, thank you very much."

    They were always happy to oblige, and Word 95 remained on our computers until dad made the major upgrade to Win 98SE sometime in 2000, before the launch of ME, where we eventually moved up to Office 97.

    It was only in 2006-ish that I decided to give Linux a go. That translates to approx. 7 years of Linux to 15 years of Windows. Now I know what some of you might think; 7 : 15 ratio is hardly a fair comparison since 15 years of being used to Windows gives Windows an unfair disadvantage. But you got to also remember that from 1990 to 2005 Microsoft's operating system and software products was almost universally mocked for being extremely unstable and buggy.

    Of course, i was not spared from the instabilities and issues brought up by others during those times, such as frequent freezes, BSoDs and the infamous 'program performed an illegal operation' error that plagued Windows 95 and 98. But none of those were drastically catastrophic; major pain-in-the-neck annoyances yes, bit that's it. That made me leave Windows on a fairly positive note (albeit quite a fair bit poorer too) when I tried out Linux in 2006, save for two major incidents where a broken Win 98 installation had Windows always failing to detect the mouse, and in 2004 where my computer (then upgraded to XP) somehow managed to get itself bugged up with that infamous worm that caused Windows to shutdown after 60 seconds.

    What attracted me to Linux then was the fact that it was something totally different and that people were claiming that it automatically works with their hardware. Unfortunately, that was not the case in my experience; first my WiFi cards weren't supported, and then Xorg was not able to generate a proper list of resolutions for my then CRT monitor. In the end I had to dig out the monitor technical specifications and manually make changes to xorg.conf to get the resolutions I wanted. Not a very good first impression. To top it off, I also ran into ext3 filesystem corruption on a recent distro during normal usage; for all the 15 years of Windows instability a filesystem error was never one of the issues that affected me, but hey, it showed up on Linux.

    To give Linux credit, it has improved vastly over these 7 years and many devices now feature built-in drivers in the kernel to make plug-and-play possible and its stability is now top notch. But even that pales with the third-party vendor support Windows enjoys, and I do play with hardware too. Having launch day drivers is a major priority that Linux is not capable of producing (example: I cannot use any of Linksys's latest WiFi adapters on Linux because one of them employs a 80211ac stack, another one uses a relink chipset that has not been merged into mainline and the third one uses some super weird Broadcom chipset that is not even covered by b43 and Broadcom's own official open drivers, and my Southern Islands card is...well, was really being under utilized until AMD updated Catalyst to work with newer kernel versions). In short, the time, effort and cost incurred in scouting around for Linux-compatible hardware eventually starts to outweigh the upfront cost I pay for Windows (eg: choosing between a $200 HP printer that is guaranteed to work on Linux vs a $100 Panasonic printer that has Windows-only drivers). And now that I can get all manner of software licences at no cost from Microsoft in exchange for an annual $300 subscription to MS TechNet, the cost-savings portion of Linux is not very relevant to me anymore. I have Linux to thank though, for getting me interested in computing as a career move.

    As for the software, let's just say that I love the polish on Microsoft software. What others call bloat, I see as 'features that are there in case they need to be used'.

    I can give more examples, but the gist of it is that of all the issues I experience in both Windows and Linux, the worst of Windows I had to deal with was much better than what I experienced with in Linux.

    Feel free to disagree but keep it civil.
    I started with MSDOS 4.0 on 286 and draw the last line on vista.
    I remember various filesystem corruptions in FAT days. I remember filesystem corruption in win95 osr. I remember ANSI encoding issues in filenames. I remember hanging pseudo OS win3.1. I remember still hanging pseudo OS windows 95. I remember self-polluting windows 98. I remember broken-by design windows ME. I remember hardware hog windows 2k. I remember wga of windows Xp, whose activation phone line were constantly busy and which wanted be to reactivate on hardware change. I remember swastika key on keyboards. I remember disk utilies dropping heads on the plates. I remember several NTFS corruptions due to power cut off. I remember viruses. I remember being infected via official updates. I remember patches that froze my machine. All past antiviruses. I remember browser hi-jacks. I remember IE-only sites. I remember doc incompabilities. I remember printers having no drivers. I remember unknown device drivers which you can't delete. I remember driver installations that do not remove everything on uninstall, that I am unable to reinstall similar product because it breaks with error. I remember using software to clean driver parts that borked the system in the end. I remember breaking system by change to ACPI. I remember inability to handle DLL files properly. I remember registry chaos. I remember access rights that are no way usable. I remember access rights that value SYSTEM OVER ADMIN. I remember same stupid startbutton desktop. I remember windows ME with 95% of software being in MSDOS and straight resistance to launch usual msdos session. I remember implementing of anti-user palladium system. I remember tons of instable software, because companies ripped off money and abadoned it in broken state. I remember copy protections that refused me to make backup copy of CD. I remember scratching that CD by my asus CDROM. I remember a system that autoexecutes graphics attachments. I remember RPC hole that made every system insecure for several weeks. I remember microsoft killing Gary Kildall. I remember microsoft sabotaging OpenGL. I remember microsoft try to sabotage Java. I remember development paradigm of "everyone reinvents same wheels and packages covered with DRM", that turn an OS into complaining fenced gardens instead of a usable machine. I remember much more.

    But then I was introduced to Solaris with KDE2 and finally discovered that there were OSes that were MUCH BETTER, MUCH SECURE out there that have miserable marketshare ONLY DUE to microsoft illegal arrangements with OEM.
    Then I discovered Linux, an OS that was trying to survive, despite all these arrangement, all these ms-only standarts, all these proprietary agreements, that put heavy emphasis on paying for work instead of paying for DRMed copies. An operating system from the future that gives choice, but still lacks polish and ONLY DUE to microsoft monster.

    I understand who is responsible for what I had crap IT experience in the last years and who is still stretching its tentacles over IT no matter at what price even today. I am using Linux ONLY because its an OS that respect its users, is bold enough to challenge the world has no boders, had awesome toolkit integration, has huge emphasis on openness.

    Switching from windows to linux was like a travelling from smoked city into high montains with fresh wind. And if some manufacturers decided to pollute further in the corrupted microsoft city, I chose those who were ticking according to time. I learned to choose my partners, and not allow somebody to manipulate me.

  2. #12
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    Right now, I am exploring the "wonderfull world" of ACPI DSDT on my laptop, because apparently it likes to heat up to 60, and only then spin up the fans.

    So, enjoy:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1036051&


    Quote Originally Posted by CylnZ View Post
    Code:
    Code:
       Scope (\_SB)
        {
            Method (_INI, 0, NotSerialized)
            {
                If (DTSE)
                {
                    TRAP (0x47)
                }
    
                Store (0x07D0, OSYS)
                If (CondRefOf (_OSI, Local0))
                {
                    If (_OSI ("Linux"))
                    {
                        Store (0x01, LINX)
                    }
    
                    If (_OSI ("Windows 2001"))
                    {
                        Store (0x07D1, OSYS)
                    }
    
                    If (_OSI ("Windows 2001 SP1"))
                    {
                        Store (0x07D1, OSYS)
                    }
    
                    If (_OSI ("Windows 2001 SP2"))
                    {
                        Store (0x07D2, OSYS)
                    }
    
                    If (_OSI ("Windows 2006"))
                    {
                        Store (0x07D6, OSYS)
                    }
                }
    Those dirty SoBs.

    I'm going to try an experiment; changing :
    Code:
    If (_OSI ("Linux"))
                    {
                        Store (0x01, LINX)
    to:
    Code:
    If (_OSI ("Linux"))
                    {
                        Store (0x07D2, OSYS)
    which would be telling the bios we are running xp sp2 wouldnt it?

    I'll post the results in a bit. Its gonna be real interesting to see if the things cool off.
    Gateway 6860fx
    Bios v. 94.29

    Code:
    CylnZ@CylnZ-laptop1:~$ iasl -tc /home/CylnZ/dsdt.dsl
    
    Intel ACPI Component Architecture
    ASL Optimizing Compiler version 20081204 [Jan 10 2009]
    Copyright (C) 2000 - 2008 Intel Corporation
    Supports ACPI Specification Revision 3.0a
    
    ASL Input:  /home/CylnZ/dsdt.dsl - 7427 lines, 258581 bytes, 2928 keywords
    AML Output: /home/CylnZ/dsdt.aml - 27724 bytes, 715 named objects, 2213 executable opcodes
    
    Compilation complete. 0 Errors, 0 Warnings, 0 Remarks, 872 Optimizations
    CylnZ@CylnZ-laptop1:~$
    Yippee-Skippee!!!!
    -----------

    Unfortunately that is not true. While the Microsoft AML compiler may be just as buggy as all the rest of their products, the end result is that many of us have dual boot machines where a Microsoft OS is able to work around the DSDT bugs to yield a running system and Linux is not.

    Ubuntu is a distribution of Linux that is well positioned to be an upgrade from Windows. But as long as so many have had experiences like mine where I set a friend's laptop up for dual boot Vista/Ubuntu and only the Vista system works, Microsoft will continue to win. The vast majority who try Ubuntu with a buggy DSDT will do no research whatsoever, decide Ubuntu is sort of pretty but not ready for real work, delete it and go on never to look back.

    People want to experience this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwL0G9wK8j4

    But end up with a lot of this:
    http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/...pg?w=362&h=500
    Unfortunately that is not true. While the Microsoft AML compiler may be just as buggy as all the rest of their products, the end result is that many of us have dual boot machines where a Microsoft OS is able to work around the DSDT bugs to yield a running system and Linux is not.
    You unfortunately don't understand what you are talking about. Do you know what a DSDT is and how operating systems interact with them? The Microsoft ACPI tables in the 71 DSDT's I've fixed so far have had zero errors. All the errors have been in the Linux tables. MS and Linux don't use the same sectiuons of a DSDT. The MS sections have no errors to work around when the MS compiler is used. The Microsoft AML compiler is intentionally breaking Linux/Mac compatibility. If you send me your DSDT, I can break a few things in the Microsoft ACPI tables, the MS AML compiler won't catch the errors, and MS won't run correctly. Would it then be MS's job to fix it? When the open industry standard Intel AML compiler is used, "ALL" operating systems work as they should.

    They can fix anything they want, they will still stay scumbags. And only scumbags join scumbags. Or how do you call sabotagers?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis
    *crap*
    I made myself damned clear from the start that this is not a topic for flaming Microsoft.

    All posts have been reported.

  4. #14
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    In linux you don't just buy hardware and hope it works. You have to know first that a driver exists and supports that hardware, then you can buy it. That has always been true. Linux has always been like that and I suspect it always will be.

    With windows you can be pretty certain that a driver exists (to varying degrees of quality) With Linux you can't be certain. You have to check first. Thats just the way it is.

    EDIT: If you had bought a radeon 6000 series instead of the 7000 series, your experience would have been much different. If you had bought a wifi adapter with realtek chipset instead your experience would have been much different.
    Last edited by duby229; 04-25-2013 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by duby229 View Post
    In linux you don't just buy hardware and hope it works. You have to know first that a driver exists and supports that hardware, then you can buy it. That has always been true. Linux has always been like that and I suspect it always will be.

    With windows you can be pretty certain that a driver exists (to varying degrees of quality) With Linux you can't be certain. You have to check first. Thats just the way it is.
    That is very true. But one thing is also certain; if an open source driver exists in the Linux kernel one is pretty much assured that the device will almost always work properly (unless upstream breaks it SOMEHOW) and will remain supported well after the vendor marks the hardware as EOL and stops issuing driver updates.

    This is the case for my rt2500usb-based wifi adapter; Ralink ceased driver updates for this device from Vista onwards but the in-kernel Linux rt2x00 driver is still going strong with every kernel release. This, at least, is something Linux is superior in; Windows users are generally at the mercy of the hardware vendor for driver updates.

    I guess in the end its a matter of preference; guranteed drivers for any device (in Windows case), or guranteed driver availability for supported devices (in Linux).
    Last edited by Sonadow; 04-25-2013 at 12:55 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    I made myself damned clear from the start that this is not a topic for flaming Microsoft.

    All posts have been reported.
    Calling names and flaming, yes. NEVER wrote anything in this direction.
    But when you work with a laptop that is HEATING UP TO 60 DEGREE HOT and I clearly see this as result of microsoft is sabotaging DSDT which results in Linux users unable to use Laptops, and I CALL THIS SABOTAGE AND MICROSOFT - SCUMBAGS.

    I am sorry I hurt your sensible soul in the progress. That's just what you will have to count in when your stupid microsoft behaves like it behaves, and you decided to place your face in front of them. Tomatos incomin', close your eyes.
    Last edited by brosis; 04-25-2013 at 01:56 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis View Post
    Calling names and flaming, yes. NEVER wrote anything in this direction.
    But when you work with a laptop that is HEATING UP TO 60 DEGREE HOT and I clearly see this as result of microsoft is sabotaging DSDT which results in Linux users unable to use Laptops, and I CALL THIS SABOTAGE AND MICROSOFT - SCUMBAGS.
    Try harder. Digging up a 5 yr old issue that has already been resolved exposes your intentions:

    UPDATE: The kernel dev's will no longer use the patch to enable custom DSDT files for Karmic 9.10 and beyond. Jaunty 9.04 is the last version this will work on. You are urged to file a bug report for DSDT errors.
    And the kernel has always identified itself as Windows NT (more recently, Windows 2012) to the DSDT to get around this issue.

    Last warning: I DO NOT CARE ABOUT Microsoft's practices. and i NEVER asked for opinions or feedback on their business practices.
    Last edited by Sonadow; 04-25-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    Try harder. Digging up a 5 yr old issue that has already been resolved exposes your intentions:

    And the kernel has always identified itself as Windows NT (more recently, Windows 2012) to the DSDT to get around this issue.
    So explain me now why I have to manually recompile and edit my DSDT, exactly because Ubuntu was stupid enough to disable manual AMR injection? This thread is from 2009, exactly as my notebook, but even today people are posting damaged DSDTs there!
    And the kernel dentifies itself as "" FYI. It does this EXACTLY to prevent microsoft sabotage, but some tables actually contain corrected values for "Linux", and in case of "" will act inaccurately.
    Maybe I should slap you with this Amilo 1554 so you will finally quit daydreaming? Tell me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    Last warning: I DO NOT CARE ABOUT Microsoft's practices. and i NEVER asked for opinions or feedback on their business practices.
    Look out, too many warnings and you'll overheat!

    You asked in this thread about "Opinions on crossroads", so I posted you my opinions. And today post is about my experience from today and yesterday. Sure way a crossroad, with MS securing monopoly by any means. And these were NOT my words, btw!
    Last edited by brosis; 04-25-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis View Post

    You asked in this thread about "Opinions on crossroads", so I posted you my opinions. And today post is about my experience from today and yesterday. Sure way a crossroad, with MS securing monopoly by any means. And these were NOT my words, btw!
    I asked for opinions and feedback on the usage of Microsoft software and adopting Microsoft technology as a career path, period.

    Questions which everybody else have addressed and contributed to, and which you have not bothered to address other than fueling your anti-Microsoft propaganda which I have no intention of listening to. Microsoft can jolly well do what it wants and I don't give two hoots if you agree with their practices or not.

    All I care about is their technology and their software, period.
    Last edited by Sonadow; 04-25-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonadow View Post
    First of all, a note: this is started with the intention that it be a sensible discussion, so flames and baits will be reported immediately.

    Also, warning: This IS A LONG POST.

    And now, to the meat of the issue:

    As some of you have known, recently because of internship commitments I have dropped Linux completely from my notebook and desktops in favor of Windows to devote time to accquainting myself with Microsoft technologies. And generally I am a fan of Microsoft software (as in I genuinely enjoy using MS software (yes, even Windows 8!) for getting work done to the point that I have invested in a Microsoft TechNet account to get complimentary access to all of Microsoft's non-developer software in return for a yearly subscription fee). To satisfy my 'build the source code yourself' cravings Visual Studio Express generally does an a-ok job for Windows applications that are open-sourced unless it makes use of GTK or Qt libraries (in which the compilation process becomes a real pain in the nuts, but I digress).

    However every so often some doubts enter my mind about the future of Microsoft in the desktop and enterprise space so I would really, really appreciate some feedback on whether I am doing the 'right thing', so to speak. For one, it is no secret that Microsoft's dominance is limited only to the desktop and notebook space; Windows Phone, as much as I enjoy using it, is never going to break past its distant third position in the smartphone space, and Windows RT is not going to improve Redmond's tablet ambitions, at least for the forseeable future. And even now there is talk that Microsoft may very well lose its desktop / notebook pie as well...

    By casting my lot with Microsoft, am I risking what would be why potential future career if I limit of learning of Linux only to the server and administration space and focusing on learning as much as I can in Microsoft land such as ASP, .NET, C#, SQL Server and Windows Server administration? Which do you think is more important: to use the tools one is comfortable with to produce the end result desired by the other party, regardless of operating system, or to spread myself out and learn both Windows and Linux tools? Is the desktop really, really dead as a work tool? I really refuse to believe in that, considering how desktops with that kind of processing power are needed to do lots grunt work that the standard consumer is not likely to ever come across in his/her life.

    Last but not least, i just have to ask; it is wrong to like Windows and Microsoft's software? As said earlier, I genuinely enjoy using Microsoft software and as such am fully willing to shell out the money for my TechNet subscription to get complimentary access to a wide range of Microsoft software products. But the vibes I'm getting from many Linux-centric forums are that it's:

    a) impossible for anybody to even like using Microsoft's software products because they are inferior to open-source ones (which I wholeheartedly disagree), and
    b) anybody who so much as says that he/she likes MS software is immediately deemed some kind of shill or mole out to discredit Linux.

    Is it really that wrong to enjoy using a system that one personally likes, and is well-supported by hardware vendors who will always be able to supply launch-day drivers for new hardware, even if those drivers are tightly locked down? What happened to the 'if you like it and are productive with it, use it' approach to computing?

    Thanks for listening.

    ** I know Im very well asking for trouble for even daring to talk about my liking of MS software in a Linux forum. But I really want the feedback and opinions.


    I personally started using Linux along with Win_2000, then with XP i had a dual installation for at least 2 years. When i decided to erase MS software for good, was only when Wine was at a good shape. But even then and even now, i have compatibility problems, mostly games, but flash and others as well. Then i realize that it wasn't Linux and free software to blame, but MS. They do what they can, even pay (thats not legal!) key companies to make their solution incompatible with Linux (graphics vendors, game companies, and others). And thats only a small damage in comparison with their virus-like attack on education. So the probability is that you just don't now something that works better. For example don't use NET, instead use C11 with LLVM.

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