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Is Valve's Steam Client Bad & Damaging For Linux?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
    Has Linux been able to compete on desktop *before* Windows 8? Just sayin...
    Yes. Linux has always been able to compete on the desktop. It's windows that hasn't been able to compete, which is why microsoft has resorted to underhanded anti-competitive tactics to keep Linux out of the desktop market. There's a reason why microsoft has been sued for anti-competitive behaviour numerous times. It's precisely because Linux competes so well, that they have to do everything they can to tilt the playing field to their favour. Unfortunately, when your business strategy relies on a tilted playing field, eventually there's going to be equalization. Someone disrupts the market and levels it again, so if you're not able to compete on equal terms, you'll fail. This is what is now happening with windows 8.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
      And even so, has Linux *kernel* been able to attract third-party developers? For years has it been a couple of middle-size giants plus "community" but no mainstream.
      Now you are trolling.

      "More than 7,800 developers from almost 800 different companies have contributed to the Linux kernel since tracking began in 2005"
      source: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-...lopment-report

      And now, can we please get back on topic, thanks.

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      • #93
        "the Core of the Opensource Spirit"

        rofl, what?

        So there is a core of that movement/spirit? I thought opensource is like freesoftware light. So you are more flexible with lisences and you want to be more practical with mixing closed source and free software.

        I find it increading funny, that I read here on phoronix more and more even more extremistic talk than even Richard Stallman gives from people refering to "opensource".

        So now Opensource Ideologie is the more extremistic philosophy than the Free Software Movement/Philosophy?

        I mean even RMS said that he can maybe see something positive of Steam, because it has good and bad effects to GNU/Linux.



        But lets say it that way, the problem is a Developer-only problem, they maybe want to have Steam only not the games... as selling platform to sell closed or opensource software by them selv and want to not share money with steam, do I get that right?


        I mean just dont use it. How can it harm you if you dont use it? Thats than funnily the same people who buy nvidia cards for giving not the source code out or specs, and bash Amd I am shure. Even you need a graphics driver and it hinders you to play free games fi you dont install it, there is no need to install steam for playing free games.


        Just say, you dont like it, because you want to use it as developer to earn money, and you dont want this concurent to a solution you want to use instead, because some users will then not install maybe the alternative software-shop you want to use instead, just dont use "opensource ideas" or something like that as a fake argument, then you can say such stuff of course.

        I just find it lame that some do like there is a big big opensource philosophy that says something about how you should cooperate as closedsource company with opensource or other closedsource devs.

        The big point about opensource is, that you do whatever brings better features faster. And the freedom or openess of code is therefor only a tool. So if steam helps linux to get more games faster, its fully in the spirit of opensource movement. because it advertises and brings more users to linux. Even richard stallman kind of maybe thinks that way, even he would not recomment to use that for users, but he can see that maybe some users switch because of it to linux and then some day understand the freesoftware freedom philosophy and people that back the control over this part of their lives.


        dont argue please now with me how you hate rms or free software if you do... just my opinion...

        And of course steam has to be closed source, the whole point of steam is that its drm, so how do you want to implement a working drm system in a opensource client? k maybe it would be possible on the serverside, somehow... dont know... but then you could not include some spy antifeatures... or some stuff like that. Or a month later some other guy sets up a alterantive steam server, ok that can be done anyway maybe ^^

        But I would find it funny to have a opensource software-shop that distributes more or less only propriatary software, whats the point of that? Ok you could than distribute over it also opensource software, but its not like every distro has its good working software-shop or konsole-software-shop anyway, that works way better than steam.

        So I dont really get that. Even I will probably never use Steam on linux, I think at least, I still find it a good thing because more people will come to linux.

        Good maybe I will than some day remove windows from my gaming-only-pc and install linux if it would really a good alterantive to windows for gaming.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Yes. Linux has always been able to compete on the desktop. It's windows that hasn't been able to compete, which is why microsoft has resorted to underhanded anti-competitive tactics to keep Linux out of the desktop market. There's a reason why microsoft has been sued for anti-competitive behaviour numerous times. It's precisely because Linux competes so well, that they have to do everything they can to tilt the playing field to their favour. Unfortunately, when your business strategy relies on a tilted playing field, eventually there's going to be equalization. Someone disrupts the market and levels it again, so if you're not able to compete on equal terms, you'll fail. This is what is now happening with windows 8.
          If Linux has been so ?ber-competitive, where is the result? Where is the solution for bug #1? Show me and I will believe you.

          FOSS Unix-based OSes have been around 80s, a LOT longer than Microsoft Windows and had a *head start*. Explaining own problems with "Microsoft anti-competitive practices" is pointless.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by log0 View Post
            Now you are trolling.

            "More than 7,800 developers from almost 800 different companies have contributed to the Linux kernel since tracking began in 2005"
            source: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-...lopment-report

            And now, can we please get back on topic, thanks.
            So? Where's the mainstream adoption? Why can you find Windows drivers for any piece of hardware but not Linux, huh?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
              So? Where's the mainstream adoption? Why can you find Windows drivers for any piece of hardware but not Linux, huh?
              Oh, please just stop here. You are not doing yourself any favor.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by log0 View Post
                Oh, please just stop here. You are not doing yourself any favor.
                I am not sure anyone who writes here does themselves any favour. But let me do one for you.

                True reasons of Linux failing to conquer the desktop:


                (written by another Linux user by the way)

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
                  So? Where's the mainstream adoption? Why can you find Windows drivers for any piece of hardware but not Linux, huh?
                  Please enlighten me for why I can't find a Windows driver for my scanner that works in a Windows newer than 98, yet it works in the latest linux.
                  Same for many sound cards, graphic cards, and printers I have.

                  Seems our anecdotes clash

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    This is a complete misstatement of the objections. Open source isn't an important criteria.
                    (highlight authored by me)

                    You better hide now lol...

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    It is important to know the major details and terms of this service if we are going to fairly evaluate it and potentially advocate for it as a community, as this site is doing:
                    • How much revenue is Valve asking for?
                    • What rights does Valve take regarding pricing?
                    • What other rights are they asking for?


                    These aren't obscure issues or things only niche fanatics would care about. These are the major terms.
                    Who says the community agrees with you on 'major details' (???). Your list will be part of the details if a community cares about the availability of the sourcecode and it's license. Why should we all evaluate it according to your standard?

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    How can we reason about Steam if we don't know the major terms? That's like asking someone if a car or house is a good purchase without letting them know the price.

                    Apple's app store, Google's app store, and Amazon's app store are all closed source (afaik); that is fine. However, the major terms, like revenue sharing and other rights are completely out in the open. We can freely post them and reason about them in public.
                    Open terms of service does not make them 'good' by definition.

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    Clearly Michael (op) is decidedly pro-Steam. Do you even know the full contract details that developers must sign yourself?

                    Even if Steam is your favorite, shouldn't you encourage competition? Shouldn't you similarly champion EA's Origin? And even more so, champion Ubuntu's store front? And open source products like Desura and RunnersBox (I've never used them and am not personally interested).
                    This is not relevant, at all. Why should Michael do that? He is a tech journalist. Not an advocate of competition.

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    How about the fact that basic laptop hardware compatability and consumer functionality has closed most of the gap with Windows/Mac and in some cases surpassed the competition? Or how about the fact that many major productivity uses have really taken off on Linux? How about the fact that the world's best web browsers are now on Linux?
                    How about the fact that all of the above percieved acomplishments were based on opensource projects? Maybe that is why people want Steam to be opensource as well, I guess... Despite the 'terms of service' you are talking about.

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    I hear this euphoric Valve/Steam/Gabe love a lot, and by itself, it's great. It's great to love things. But it's a problem when love and emotions substitute for actual reason and you are advocating for larger-scale, community-wide, competition-free adoption.
                    If you look at the development of nouveau, despite the fact that nVidia provides a pretty good proprietary solution, the above argument does not hold in this case.

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    That's not fair. I'm ecstatic about all the big proprietary companies bringing AAA games to Linux this year and will pay full price for many of them. I just don't think that Valve has this righteous position as the universal rent collector on all games that are completely developed and funded outside of Valve. Even my favorite game developer, Rockstar Games, doesn't deserve this rent seeking privilege.
                    Rent seeking is being done when we talk about a monopoly. Valve has no monopoly, there are other games within the same genre. So there is no rent seeking.

                    And there is a difference between profit and economic profit. FWIW.

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    Linux has never taken off in the past because:

                    - work/school productivity users were predominantly tied to Win/Mac.
                    - basic functionality was a mess in the past.
                    - Game development has been so heavily tied to either consoles or Windows.
                    - Desktop and game dev sdks have been a mess.

                    Linux has turned a corner on the first two. Android/iOS have completely blown the third item out of the water. The fourth one is making progress as well. Valve has had some contribution, but it's been minor and these things would have happened without them.
                    But you agree that it will help. Right?

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    I agree with what you are saying as it applies generally, and as Michael Larabel misframed the argument against Steam, it sounds ridiculously idealistic.
                    Microsoft contributed an opensource driver for it's virtualization products. nVidia and AMD are providing more and more opensource drivers within the upstream kernel. More and more video drivers are being reverse engineered and tend to work better than the proprietary counterpart.

                    You think this is still stubborn idealism? I argue that this form of idealism is mostly (!) based on technical, and I believe, sound arguments. Look around the kernel git (and it's activity), is it *that* detrimental to believe in something?

                    Originally posted by DanLamb View Post
                    Linux needs better game APIs, it needs closed source AAA games, it needs better visibility, it needs an auto-patching service that works across all games like the regular Synaptic-type repos have. Linux doesn't need Steam. Steam isn't practical. The best thing that Steam can contribute is hype and credibility, but these can be gained through other means.
                    One could consider steam an additional repo on top of your current repo's specifically for games. However, this repo has it's own manager. So what? And maybe, Steam has it's own engine because they just want to roll their own. There is nothing wrong with that as there are many more 3D engine's available in the opensource suite of games.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by curaga View Post
                      Please enlighten me for why I can't find a Windows driver for my scanner that works in a Windows newer than 98, yet it works in the latest linux.
                      Same for many sound cards, graphic cards, and printers I have.

                      Seems our anecdotes clash
                      I second this. Driver support on Windows sucks monkey fuck for the hardware I have as shocking as this may sound.

                      CanonScan LiDe 30. Have fun trying to get that thing working with Windows 7. Canon only has Vista Drivers on their page. Windows Update tries do download some shit and it gets recognized as CanonScan LiDE 30 but when you try to configure it Windows says there is no Scanner attached WHAT THE FUCK?!

                      On Linux just plug that piece of shit in. Done.

                      NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150. Good luck installing a driver new that what came with my laptop and is available at the HP homepage. You'd think you can just go to NVIDIA.com and download a driver installer for GeForce 6000... No you can't. Well then let's look for N-Force since the Laptop has an N-Force Motherboard. Nope no luck. Well then let's run the piece of shit Java Applet to find the right driver. Nope doesn't work. I'm stuck with the driver from 2007 FOR GODS SAKE!

                      On Linux i just install the driver from the fucking repos. 304.88 released just a week ago. End of story.

                      OHH MY GOD WINDOWS HARDWARE SUPPORT IS SO FUCKING GREAT!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I WANT TO LICK STEVE BALLMARS SWEATY ARMPITS TO SHOW MY APPRECIATION! Stop living in your fucking dreamworld dude.

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