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Thread: Wayland/Weston Gets Forked As "GH-Next"

  1. #51
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    soreau and DanielS are part of the reasons why the open source community has such a bad reputation.

    These discussions should be based on actual merit and technical skill, not needless bickering and politicising of subjects that really don't need to be politicised.

    I want to thank you both, and Canonical, for giving X11 the potential to be the default display manager for the majority GNU/Linux and other *nix-like OS's for at least the next ten years.

    And seriously, get over yourselves and grow up.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    15:47 < hadess> soreau, i know how to report bugs, thanks
    15:47 < soreau> clearly you do not understand the implications
    15:47 < soreau> in reporting bugs or development
    15:48 < hadess> don't patronise me, thanks
    15:48 * soreau nvidiot senses tingling
    [...]
    16:28 < soreau> I DONT GIVE A SHIT what you ignorant people think about attitude, politics and a bunch of crap that doesn't even matter
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Right, that's true
    16:28 < soreau> Every single one of you against me are a bunch of fucking idiots
    16:28 < reavengr1y> True
    16:28 < soreau> let me see some source code, let's compare commits
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Come on fags
    16:28 < soreau> fucking dumb ass people
    16:28 < reavengr1y> let's see commits
    16:28 < reavengr1y> bitches
    16:28 < soreau> why don't you SHUT THE FUCK UP
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Yea
    16:29 < reavengr1y> homos
    16:29 * crazedpsyc facepalms
    16:29 < hadess> efnet!
    [...]
    16:31 < soreau> It's only entertaining to see abunch of fucktards talking random meaningless jargon after the Mir fallout seems to have affected everyone with canonical radiation
    16:31 < soreau> sick of this nonsense he-said /she-said bullshit
    16:32 < Darxus> soreau: FYI, not giving a shit about people is exactly your problem.
    16:32 < soreau> Darxus: You're a fucking idiot
    16:32 < soreau> /ignore Darxus
    [...]
    16:33 < crazedpsyc> soreau: I'm not against you, so you don't hate me, okay? Now calm down. For your own sake.
    16:33 < soreau> crazedpsyc: I hate everyone equally
    16:33 < crazedpsyc> oh, damn. okay
    16:33 < soreau> but idiots really piss me off

    That was a sample of 45 minutes of #wayland IRC. reavengr1y is not, for the record, a Wayland developer. Darxus (who is banned from #wayland-dev or whatever the Northwood channel is called now), is.
    These are indeed actual minutes of a heated IRC debate. I will now explain what drove me to this frustration.

    Darxus joined the project maybe a month or two after I did, last year. The problem of review slowness was already readily prevalent, even at this early point. During a conversation with Darxus, he explained that he has been involved with the wayland project since before this time but left because Kristian was ignoring his website patches and possibly some of his other work. After some months, Darxus decided to apply for a freedesktop.org account to eventually have commit access to the site. I thought this was great because this would mean a) one less thing for Kristian to maintain alone b) overall improvements to the website. After he was granted the account, he did some preliminary work and we tried to clean up the site working with him, removing unnecessary git dependencies and other improvements. Darxus expressed his interest in html validation and I figured this meant he would become stand-in maintainer for the website. Over time the project continued to grow and things needed to be changed on the site sometimes. There were some relatively minor problems but they were key because users kept coming into the channel with related problems. I explained to Darxus initially about the problems and he said he'd fix them but never did. I reminded him again but this time he suggested that I should create a patch, submit it to the mailing list and he would review it. For a minor change, I do not feel this is necessary, It's wasted time and bandwidth. If I wanted my name on the commit and this was a reason, I probably would have done it. But we're talking minor html changes here. I reminded him several times and he showed no interest in fixing it. Every time, he would ask for patches. I noticed when others would notify him of simple things, he would ask for an explicit verbatim stating precisely what the change should be, even if there was no conceivable discrepancy. The very simple problems that were very easily fixable still were not fixed, 6 months after initially notifying him about it.

    My special interest is in the code. I don't really care too much about the site because it's something that anyone can fix. I value my personal time more than this and I don't have time to hold anyone's hand and tell them what to do for a simple html content two-second fix.

    Finally, the same topic came up again in the channel about a user having trouble and I got upset. I said some things that were strongly harsh. In my opinion, it would not have come to this level if he would have just fixed it in the first place like I asked him to. It always takes two to tango, of course..

    Over these past six months, not only has Darxus been ignoring the obvious fixes I'm telling him about for the site, but he makes a habit of keeping scrollback from IRC and then using it out-of-context to make me look bad. He doesn't do this to others, he only does it to me. I have very strong goals and ideas. These days, I also have programming experience to get what I want done. I always try to start nicely but after repeating myself for the 5th and 6th time and we're still broken, this pisses me off.

    In my humble opinion, when you sign up for a freedesktop.org account, and have access to a repository, and have shown that your time is spent conversing in and around the project, you are automatically volunteering your time and skills to make something useful to the community. This should be an understood thing and I thought it was. As it turns out though, you can gain commit access to a project and just toy with people that are making suggestions the the component for which you have commit access.

    What I have noticed especially over the past 6 months is that Darxus and Daniel spend their time wasting other people's time and causing contentions amongst the project group. They both regularly post IRC scrollback out-of-context that portrays others in a negative light. The majority of the time, I am the target of this behavior. In later developments, Daniel was taking a large part in degrading me and my works.

    They offended me regularly over time and cost me time, aggravation and a bunch of typing that could have otherwise been spent coding (such as this very post). They spend their time 'mud slinging' like politicians drunk with power, instead of doing the right thing and trying to help everyone out. I can tell, these two are really enjoying the flamewar and the ban. Just since this ban incident, Darxus started a thread on the wayland-devel mailing list portraying me the way he wants me to be seen, in a bad light. See http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ch/008172.html and take note of the length. You can plainly see, that he has spent a lot of time on this post, and it's serves no other purpose than to make me look bad, in a context where I cannot defend myself because my voice has been restricted from these mediums. This is very convenient for him as the wayland developers to not seem have a problem with this at all, and this has been going on for the past 6 months.

    One important question here is, “Is Darxus a Wayland developer?”. I will let the commits speak for themselves. So far as Daniel Stone goes, I am surprised he works for a company called 'Collabora', I would like everyone to please take a moment to view the current Collabora introductory statements on their main page http://www.collabora.com/ and see if this matches the behavior of Daniel Stone's position here.

    In my humble and professional opinion, Darxus spends more time cleverly degrading others and starting trouble than he does helping situations and promoting unity. (no pun intended). This guy is bad news, just like Daniel Stone. You can find plenty of useful work from these two in particular, but over the course of the past year, I've uncovered their true underlying attitudes. They are very rotten and despicable.

    This is a bunch of nonsense over nothing. This 'mud slinging' is completely wasted effort. I am not participating in this, I am only defending myself since I am being openly attacked. Instead of try and pick apart why I was driven to the frustration level that made me type the things I did, why not pick up the source code and find all the bugs in it and report those. This would be more useful to me. In any event, I am glad that you are having fun at my expense. Perhaps this is the purpose you've found for me in your project.

    Thanks,

    Scott Moreau

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    soreau and DanielS are part of the reasons why the open source community has such a bad reputation.
    I would have not had to create an account and defend myself, if these comments were not being posted here against me. I am not willfully participating here, I am doing this because they are openly attacking me. I do not want to hear statements against anyone including myself, Daniel Stone or Darxus. This is a big waste of time and it definitely reflects badly for the FOSS image as a whole, from an outsider's point of view. However, if they are going to try and portray this in a false light, I must strive to reveal the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    These discussions should be based on actual merit and technical skill, not needless bickering and politicising of subjects that really don't need to be politicised.
    Yes I agree. I will now post some interesting information I uncovered. I have taken the liberty of counting the commits programmatically from the wayland and weston upstream master repositories. I was surprised to find the numbers that I did. Here are the results, without addressing the actual content of each commit:

    Wayland:
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep Darxus|wc -l
    4
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep "Daniel Stone"|wc -l
    36
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep "Scott Moreau"|wc -l
    11

    Weston:
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep Darxus|wc -l
    3
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep "Daniel Stone"|wc -l
    161
    $ git rev-list --all --pretty|grep "Scott Moreau"|wc -l
    132

    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I want to thank you both, and Canonical, for giving X11 the potential to be the default display manager for the majority GNU/Linux and other *nix-like OS's for at least the next ten years.

    And seriously, get over yourselves and grow up.
    I agree. I don't have time for this. These people are wasting their time, my time and everyone elses time which ultimately results in making everyone involved (us collectively) look bad. I think it is important for individuals to realize how frivolous this is:

    1) The project is not forked. The difference now is, the efforts that were being wasted by poor project management now have an immediate target.
    2) The code is now being developed for two slightly orthogonal purposes in tandem, not unlike the Compiz and Beryl projects.
    3) They are taking IRC text from a computer and posting it well outside of the initial context specifically with the intent to cause trouble for me. They talking about a bunch of stuff that is now past history and cannot be changed or undone. They are only showing, the degree of frustration I experienced after months of agonizing patience and continuously being mocked and criticized.

    I would like to say this to all involved in the 'mud slinging': Please, take this users advice, get over yourselves, and grow up. I would appreciate it if you didn't waste your time portraying my name and project in a bad light. I am doing nothing but defending myself against your malicious acitivities and stating true facts. You on the other hand, are spending time digging up 'dirt' with deliberate negative intent. This wasted effort of doing negative things is one of the many reasons for slow development and continually broken pieces. My guess is that they probably will get bored of this after they see that I've made significant technical contributions to the wayland and weston projects. Daniel has as well, and he works for Collabora (remember for what this company stands) so he should definitely know better than this child like behavior. Darxus' contributions are more the nature of website stuff, typo fixes and function name changes. It is noteworthy that Darxus has other commits in the wayland-web repo not considered here. Darxus' contributions are not insignificant, however I think if you review the actual commits, that you will see for yourself. The problem with Darxus and Daniel is that they spend time and energy inciting negative feelings amongst the wayland community group. I believe this shows, who sits where on the 'Wayland Developer' sliding scale.


    Thanks,

    Scott Moreau

  4. #54
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    Default Wayland IRC channel minutes

    This is the actual uncut log in the minutes before the #wayland ban:

    <thiago> any sign that we're fracturing is bad for Wayland (both camps)
    <thiago> I'm trying to avoid fracturing
    <soreau> airlied: Yes, this is why I said "i do not have the time to flood this channel with such frivolous, idle, OT discussion"
    <R__> stop worrying about it so much
    <R__> it's really not that big of a deal ;p
    <soreau> exactly
    <krh> thiago: I think we got to this point because I worried too much aboutkeeping soreau happy
    <sadmac> thiago: well right now it's getting a bit too heated. Let's at least drop it for a few hours. Phoronix has already had their fun. We're not going to do any useful media cleanup. Let's just all chill a bit.
    <krh> appeasing the gods my ass
    <soreau> krh: Sorry you feel that way, but I feel the opposite way. Instead, I feel that my works have been not well accepted or appreciated
    <krh> is there anyway in this channel you haven't insulted or bitched at?
    <soreau> krh: Probably not, and for that I am sorry. I have problems communicating effectively when I feel like I'm not in control of the situation
    <krh> sorry it, doesn't work that way
    <krh> you can't continuoust insult people and then just say "I can't communicate, sorry"
    <soreau> well all I can do is offer my apologies
    <soreau> I can't go back and undo what I said or did
    <thiago> fair enough
    <krh> *continously
    <thiago> I'm not asking that the two of you like each other
    <thiago> in fact, I'm not even asking that you two work together
    <thiago> but I am asking that we avoid doing harm to the goal that we all have in common
    <soreau> I think our goals are orthogonal
    <soreau> by not a large degree
    <thiago> Q: Why are you going against wayland devs?
    <thiago> A: We're not. This projects' goals are about forwarding the wayland
    <thiago> project as a whole.
    <thiago> quoting you. You're claiming that the goals are the same (overall goals, if not short-term, operational goals).
    <soreau> thiago: This isn't the place for it. If you want to pick apart what I said, please use the mailing list to avoid flooding this channel
    <thiago> ok
    <thiago> looks like no one wants to have this discussion here
    <zubzub> ah comon
    <zubzub> keep on discussing
    <thiago> I will work with you and others in private and on the ML
    <zubzub> I just made some popcorn
    <zubzub>
    <soreau> thiago: You are welcome to join #northfield and I can try to address your concerns there, if you prefer IRC
    * krh sets ban on *!*soreau@unaffiliated/soreau
    * You have been kicked from #wayland by krh (soreau)
    * Cannot join #wayland (You are banned).

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I want to thank you both, and Canonical, for giving X11 the potential to be the default display manager for the majority GNU/Linux and other *nix-like OS's for at least the next ten years.
    As someone who worked on X11 for close on ten years, I'll take that as a compliment.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    As someone who worked on X11 for close on ten years, I'll take that as a compliment.
    If you gain an ounce of professionalism in the future, I might consider giving you permission to taking that as a compliment.
    But until then, thanks for making the FOSS community look that little bit worse.

  7. #57
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    This is actually making Canonical look good.

    Like the sane, respectful ones who just didn't want to have to deal with trolls and assholes and decided to do their own thing.


    Wayland development planning:


    time and resources to be invested into wayland development: ?????

    time and resources to be invested into trolling irc / forumbating / bashing canonical: ALL






    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    As someone who worked on X11 for close on ten years, I'll take that as a compliment.
    you seem proud of that fact and of X11...

























































    protip: you shouldn't be.

  8. #58
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    Default Positive Influences

    Now to pull the nose up back toward the sky. On a positive note, the other developers and community have been very nice and helpful to me. I will list some people that I have observed, often and regularly taking the time to help me and others. These are people that have been consistently helpful to the project and others and I have not noticed engaging in deliberate malicious activity against others.

    In the order of most recent mailing list posts:

    Pekka Paalanen
    Martin Minarik
    Rune Kjær Svendsen
    Tiago Vignatti
    Thiago Macieira
    Giulio Camuffo
    Benjamin Franzke
    Jason Ekstrand
    John Kåre Alsaker
    Rafal Mielniczuk
    MoD
    Philipp Brüschweiler
    Hardening
    Alexander Preisinger
    Alex Deucher
    Sam Spilsbury
    Jan Arne Petersen
    Ander Conselvan de Oliveira
    Rob Bradford
    David Herrmann
    Vasily Khoruzhick
    Jonas Ådahl
    Michael Hasselmann
    Jan Arne Petersen
    (I could go all night here, seriously..)

    This is a list (severely incomplete) of people that are consistently helpful to the community including myself, and regularly encourage intellectual and innovative thinking. This is a very very small list compared to the massive support collectively provided by the good community members invloved here. I am leaving out.. ..so many names. (Sorry if your name was not listed here, the list is fairly random since there are so many helpful people surrounding this project). The important point to realize here, is that these people are still working on wayland as regularly scheduled. They have no need to get involved in this senselessness and they don't have time for it, just like I don't.

    I too try to help people in IRC and through the mailing list whenever I can. (I'm not going to sit here and broadcast all my good works, I don't have time to dig through it all because there's a lot of it.) I will be touching on some of these features in an upcoming post that will begin breaking down the wayland/weston internals from a desktop development technical point of view, and aim to explain the technical reasonings behind the split. Stay tuned.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by soreau View Post
    These are indeed actual minutes of a heated IRC debate. I will now explain what drove me to this frustration.
    So in other words, you knew about this conversation, but consciously lied about it? If you vehemently deny saying something, then, when called out on it, admit that you really did say the things you denied saying, why should we trust anything else you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by soreau View Post
    <krh> is there anyway in this channel you haven't insulted or bitched at?
    <soreau> krh: Probably not, and for that I am sorry. I have problems communicating effectively when I feel like I'm not in control of the situation
    So you freely admit that you are incapable of not insulting people when things don't go the way you want, and yet you are surprised that you are banned?
    Last edited by TheBlackCat; 03-27-2013 at 05:22 AM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallidus View Post
    This is actually making Canonical look good.

    Like the sane, respectful ones who just didn't want to have to deal with trolls and assholes and decided to do their own thing.


    Wayland development planning:


    time and resources to be invested into wayland development: ?????

    time and resources to be invested into trolling irc / forumbating / bashing canonical: ALL
    I don't know if you are a beginner about FOSS, beginner about humans or both.
    I working for a big company (not involved in software) and I can see this kind of behavior several times form different kind of people. Do you think to be immune to that? You are wrong.
    It is very easy see that kind of opinion's exchange from an external point of view and say: "you look like a children, came on, grow up!", but when you are in the middle of a intense discussion, you fall in the exactly same behavior, for sure. You should know this.
    About the FOSS.
    FOSS allows you to disagree about a project's direction, allows you to fork the code and allows you to write what you want about others attitude.
    A company, like Canonical, do *not* allows you to speak bad words about the company work and your colleague (in pubblic, for sure).
    A company pay you for write code, then your personal opinion is *not* on top of the priority list.
    The last but not the least, in 99% of the company out there, you are not allowed to fork nothing at all.
    So, mixing the effects of humans aspects + foss liberty, this kind of opinion exchange (or fighting, if you like call it so) is simple and perfectly normal, other than expected.
    Then stop to show a sort of superiority that you haven't, and stop to think about foss devs like a bunch of soldiers that must march togheter without to show personality, opinion or different approach to the same problem.

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