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Thread: Canonical Announces Mir Back-End For Mainline Mesa

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    This is best picture of so-called "FOSS Community". Hate, jealous, hypocrisy and IBC (Invented By Canonical) syndrome.
    What a lie. What most people care about is the FOSS to be developed in the OPEN on terms EQUAL to all parties and COMPATIBLE to most distrobutions. Mir offers nothing but CLAed skunkwork which have a HUGE hidden cost. Waylands reference compositor and the work at GTK/shell is heading towards CSD. This is quite orthogonal to Mirs directions. So even by accepting the CLA and Mir not being distro agnostic you have a future waste of engineering and development hours much larger than the hours wasted at Mir so far.

    The only sane choice is to stop Mir now and turn back. Instead of doing this Canonical have started lying and defaming the better choice. THATS what pisses many people off.

  2. #72
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    I smell lack of knowledge about TDD. The purpose of Test-Driven Development is to write tests BEFORE writing the program. If you write a program before tests, it's not TDD.

    "Maybe we want Wayland, but we'll need to write an input stack, patch the Mesa EGL platform, and redo the WM handling in all the toolkits." - isn't that enough?
    Last edited by Siekacz; 03-12-2013 at 07:24 AM.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    But Canonical IS unwilling to work with communities.
    Clearly. This is why they're reaching out to their community to help them develop ALMOST ALL of the apps that are now supposed to replace the GNOME apps (I called it, not it's a news item on this site. More surprises to follow >_> ) or how they're willing to fund what can only be described as forks of Ubuntu. (Xubuntu, Ubuntu GNOME remix, Edubuntu, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Bullshit, there's nothing in the Wayland standard that prevents it being used with mobile drivers. In fact it has already been done as a proof-of-concept.
    There is nothing preventing it from being used except the fact that it can't be used because the standard is incompatible with the vast majority of Android display drivers out there. Good luck telling all the phone companies to rewrite their driver stack for all the phones already in circulation LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Aptitude (and apt which it is a front-end for) is also a part of Debian and developed by Debian. Nothing Ubuntu-specific there either. PPA's, ok, that's one thing that's Ubuntu-specific, but repositories in general are not.
    They work slightly differently in Ubuntu. This is merely a tangent anyway. Nevermind.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Bullshit FUD. Wayland API has been declared stable and there's no reason to assume Wayland would change their standard, other than BS fearmongering and propaganda. Even if the standard did change (unlikely - has Xorg ever made such changes in the standard?) Canonical could just choose to ignore the changes.

    And OpenGL is totally irrelevant here.
    OpenGL itself is somewhat irrelevant, but the point that I'm making is that just because you have a standard does not mean it can't suddenly change completely. Yes, you can ignore it, but that causes people to be stuck with busted old broken software. OpenGL would be a clear example of this. Calling it "bullshit FUD" is just plain ridiculous.

    Also, unwillingness to ignore the standard is what has led to the X.org fiasco, just FYI. But of course, if everyone ignores the standard, there is no standard, so at that point it all becomes a bit moot, yes?

    Also - I don't know if you're noticed this - but Mir is basically Wayland with extensions and a different implementation. It isn't terribly different and it already runs Qt just because Qt was ported to Wayland, for instance. This is why Canonical can so safely say that e.g. KDE will run on Mir.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    It doesn't really matter if Canonical wants to work with me or not because I don't work on display servers.
    Maybe you ought to learn some grammar. "You" can also refer to many different people - or indeed several communities. I don't care whether you, as in you alone specifically mr. Dee., aren't a display server engineer. That was not what I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Who has said anything about FreeDesktop community having a final say? Free software is opposed to standards? Wow, what? Where do you get such preposterous ideas?

    No, if you're developing something that you hope to become a standard for the community, it should be developed in the open and with collaboration, not with some kind of skunkworks team behind closed doors.
    Free software has, as its core value, that you should be able to add and remove any part of a program you wish in any way you wish.

    If part of the program is part of a standard you don't want to have due to whatever reason, we've got a problem with standardization vs. free software. You have put restrictions on what your community should and should not do.

    And I repeat: Free software is supposed to benefit the community, yes, but that doesn't mean the whole community needs to develop it.

    In practical terms I agree, which I stated, and I'm not saying Canonical has the better idea here. I'm just simply telling you to stop trying to persuade me that free software has to be developed openly. Free software is a publication ideal, not a development ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    GNOME has nothing to do with Wayland.
    They often work together and several members work in both at once.

    But hey, it's not as if Canonical isn't sick and tired of the X.org guys, for instance, either. Revving X.org keeps breaking Ubuntu computers and Canonical is quite possibly a little tired of having complaints about it.
    Last edited by Ishayu; 03-12-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    I smell lack of knowledge about TDD. The purpose of Test-Driven Development is to write tests BEFORE writing the program. If you write a program before tests, it's not TDD.

    "Maybe we want Wayland, but we'll need to write an input stack, patch the Mesa EGL platform, and redo the WM handling in all the toolkits." - isn't that enough?
    Wayland is just a protocol, it's kind of tough to do TDD with that. The test come in when you write a compositor for it - such as Weston. Or Kwin/whatever Gnome is doing.

    Everyone assumed Ubuntu would write their own Unity compositor, whether it was called Mir or just part of Unity. That's where the TDD comes in. No one would have had a problem with that.

    It's true enough that there might have been small bits that were developed before tests, but you can write tests after the fact for those occasions. Blindly following TDD without using any common sense is worse than having no tests at all.


    Anyway, let's go over that list you linked earlier, shall we?

    1. Yes, X sucks. Everyone agrees.
    2. Sure, Weston isn't for you. It's probably not for 99% of people. That makes perfect sense. It's why Unity should have had it's own Wayland compositor.
    3. Ok, so 9 months ago there was no input stack for Wayland. There is now, though. And now Mir doesn't have an input stack. So, basically this reason is reversed now - it's a reason to use Wayland instead of Mir.
    4. Server-side allocations. Yeah, ARM GPU's suck and have special requirements. Requirements that wayland easily provides. A dev already showed you, just override 2 methods in your compositor and you are good to go, and it's already been tested and proves to work. Easy. No reason to write an entirely new spec for this. And frankly, the fact that none of the Mir devs knew this is one of the big red flags i have. How can we have confidence in these guys when they can't even see the obvious stuff like this?
    5. This point basically boils down to them not liking the Wayland API and wanting to replace it, for no particular reason that they explained. I think basically they just want control to do whatever it is they want, without having to get approval and reviews from upstream.

    Which basically boils back down to my previous post - they want control of the project, copyright and otherwise, without having to deal with the community.

    I really wish they'd just come out and admit that. It would have gone a lot better for them if they were honest about that point rather than trying to throw together all these half-baked justifications that don't make any sense and just make them look incompetent.

  5. #75
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    At this point, it looks like we want something like Wayland, but different in almost all the details. It's not clear that starting with Wayland will save us all that much effort, so the upsides of doing our own thing - we can do exactly and only what we want, we can build an easily-testable codebase, we can use our own infrastructure, we don't have an additional layer of upstream review - look like they'll outweigh the costs of having to duplicate effort. Therefore, Mir.
    They Admitted that.

  6. #76
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    http://screencloud.net/v/7M5y - Canonical does not have enough resources and manpower? Then what about Wayland? There's more full-time people working on Mir than on Wayland. In Wayland there's Kristian and ...? (I count only full-time workers).

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    http://screencloud.net/v/7M5y - Canonical does not have enough resources and manpower? Then what about Wayland? There's more full-time people working on Mir than on Wayland. In Wayland there's Kristian and ...? (I count only full-time workers).
    Canonical doesn't have anyone who has any expertise or experience on the Linuxx graphics stack. They don't know what they're doing.
    They also have only started development, while Wayland is already stable and it's reference implementation is almost ready for deployment.

    The idea that Canonical could do in 6 months what took more experienced people 5 years is simply preposterous. It won't happen.

  8. #78
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    Because?

    How to write display manager knowledge is not an enlightenment from heavens for chosen. If you have money and motivation you can pretty quickly learn anything. And you don't have old habits that, ironically, can screw the whole thing (NO, i'm NOT saying Wayland developers screwed anything - some people here try to persuade that I don't like Linux or I don't want community projects. If somebody has a problem with logic and understanding the text, go to a logic class). If I thought like this I wouldn't go to the university, because I have no experience in writing software, therefore I cannot write good programs. It's sick.
    Last edited by Siekacz; 03-12-2013 at 09:04 PM.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    How to write display manager knowledge is not an enlightenment from heavens for chosen. If you have money and motivation you can pretty quickly learn anything.
    There was plenty of motivation and even some money offered to develop free desktop drivers - that did not make it easy for a lot of people to learn. Graphics can be a really complicated son of a bitch.

  10. #80
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    Money, where?

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