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Thread: Canonical Announces Mir Back-End For Mainline Mesa

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Way to respond to basically none of my points. Your screed about Ubuntu being attacked from all sides by a virulent community out for it's own destruction is debatable enough, but you also failed to address my main point about Mir, which is that if it does become the default display server it will place all of the power in Canonical's hands, and everyone else will be in an even worse position to the one you ascribed to Canonical. You take Canonical's side so willingly when it comes to letting them control their own destiny, but fail to realize that taking the power from the community will force the community to be in an even worse situation when it comes to being forced into Canonical's mono-culture. Considering how much Canonical has depended on the community for much of it's current infrastructure and status, that seems like quite a bad bargain.
    Canonical being dependent on a community simply can't deliver good OS. They have been trying to do so for almost 9 years and it is not a success in any way (yes I am a Ubuntu user and I dislike Windows). Like other Linux distros. I want good OS, not happy community. Community is a way to achive some goals, not a goal itself.

    Everyone will be in an even worse position - that's called competition and this is something that pushes humanity ahead. Noone blocks Wayland devs to deliver a better display server.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    Canonical being dependent on a community simply can't deliver good OS. They have been trying to do so for almost 9 years and it is not a success in any way (yes I am a Ubuntu user and I dislike Windows). Like other Linux distros. I want good OS, not happy community. Community is a way to achive some goals, not a goal itself.
    Well, that is a significant assumption in of itself. I use Linux partly because I prefer free software, but also because I do actually find it to be a better desktop OS where I have proper control of the software stack, do not need to worry about DRM, have a proper package manager that is not based on selling me shovel-ware, have great file and data security, and can have a very flexible DE that I can suit to my whims. It is not a bad OS, it is a great OS, and it is the community that has brought it here for me (and is continuing to improve it every year).

    It is funny that you accused everyone who dislikes Mir to be based on hate, as you now seem to claim that the only reason you use Linux at all is because you dislike Windows. Well, I am here because I actually like Linux, I like how it is developed and operated, and do not appreciate someone throwing in a wrench that will hurt most of these developers hard work. Especially when they are working to improve something so fundamental that could benefit us so much. You say our motives are based purely on hate, when you are challenging something that we do love so dearly. If you can not understand that, you are purely consumed by hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    Everyone will be in an even worse position - that's called competition and this is something that pushes humanity ahead. Noone blocks Wayland devs to deliver a better display server.
    Your changing your line here. You previously said that Wayland was designed for nothing and other distros and DEs should and will make the switch to Mir. Which of course would be disastrous as that would be building on top of an environment which would be in effect actively hostile to them, as it would be geared specifically for Unity and would in the process actively work against other DEs and distros. That is unless Canonical did eventually develop a community model for, which you say getting rid of was the whole point of.

    And competition is not always a good thing, especially when it is based on hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    What compromises are those? Wayland works. There's tons of development already done on Wayland, it's on its way to becoming the standard for display servers for Linux. This is one part of the system where compatibility between distros is crucial. We need a single standard that we can all focus on, and Wayland is that because it has the support of the larger community, not just one distro. Everyone can make their own Wayland compositors if they want, but it's crucial that we all use the same standard. Just like it's fine that there are dozen and a half desktop environments, as long as they all play nice and are compatible to a reasonable degree. That's why there are standards which desktop environments follow. That's why you can take a program that's designed for KDE and run it in a GNOME environment, or vice versa.
    All because of the freedesktop.org standard, which Wayland is a part of:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedes...osted_projects

    Considering Ubuntu was already breaking things when it came to things like Unity indicators, this move is really not all that surprising I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Canonical doesn't have the expertise to create this kind of standard. They will have to do way more work, and there's no way they'll get their project done before Wayland, because Wayland is way ahead of them. Canonical could easily just create their own Wayland compositor and still call it their own, add whatever extensions they need to suit their purposes, and it would benefit everyone because we'd all be using the same standard.
    That is actually an interesting thought. If Canonical had simply made Mir another Wayland compositor it would have given them a lot of the control they desired while at the same time still getting the benefits of community developments and of properly following standards. I am not entirely sure of the technical aspects of that myself, but in principle that does sound like a much better path they could have chosen, if only they consider doing something other than always running off on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Besides, if you don't like community-driven development, what are you doing using Linux? Linux is based on community development. The Linux kernel is community-driven, it's developed by developers from all over the community. And it works great - it's the largest collaborative software project in the world, bringing us the most advanced, adaptable and flexible kernel in existence.
    He does not actually seem to like Linux, and by his own words seems to mostly be motivated by his dislike of Windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Wayland is designed for Linux, by Linux users. It is designed to work, with sound design principles and a clean codebase. Mir is just a twinkle in shuttleworth's eye at this point. What you don't get is that Wayland is a standard. There's absolutely no reason why Canonical couldn't create their own display server but make it conform to the Wayland standard. They'd still have control of the codebase if that's so crucial to them, they could add whatever extensions they wanted to support their distro-specific stuff, but they'd be working and collaborating with the ecosystem instead of fighting against it.
    Exactly.
    Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 03-10-2013 at 03:11 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    That is actually an interesting thought. If Canonical had simply made Mir another Wayland compositor it would have given them a lot of the control they desired while at the same time still getting the benefits of community developments and of properly following standards. I am not entirely sure of the technical aspects of that myself, but in principle that does sound like a much better path they could have chosen, if only they consider doing something other than always running off on their own.
    I had actually thought that that was their plan, until they announced Mir. To me it would simply make the most sense. I expect that there will be other DE's that will go that route, with their own Wayland compositor, because Weston probably won't suit everyone's needs, and it doesn't have to.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    Canonical being dependent on a community simply can't deliver good OS. They have been trying to do so for almost 9 years and it is not a success in any way (yes I am a Ubuntu user and I dislike Windows). Like other Linux distros. I want good OS, not happy community. Community is a way to achive some goals, not a goal itself.

    Everyone will be in an even worse position - that's called competition and this is something that pushes humanity ahead. Noone blocks Wayland devs to deliver a better display server.
    Why don't you use OSX if you dont care about open source. You now they already has a modern display server in 10 years soon.
    Canonical has never developed anything good. Why should it change this time.... Without the community around Canonical they are only a relative small company without any profit and probably a sure death the same day Mark don't think it's funny or to expensive to carry on with it.
    Last edited by Akka; 03-10-2013 at 09:02 PM.

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    OS X is getting outdated and stinky. Ubuntu is the only hope to make personal computiing powerful and easy. Addition of being OpenSource is nice, but it is not enough for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    OS X is getting outdated and stinky. Ubuntu is the only hope to make personal computiing powerful and easy. Addition of being OpenSource is nice, but it is not enough for me.
    sure... outdated with theirs 73000 employees, what have Canonical maybe 500.... Without a community around Canonical need too compete with these 73000... Its mean a very sure bankruptcy.
    Last edited by Akka; 03-10-2013 at 09:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siekacz View Post
    OS X is getting outdated and stinky. Ubuntu is the only hope to make personal computiing powerful and easy. Addition of being OpenSource is nice, but it is not enough for me.
    You know, you can always 'shake hand' again with Microsoft is you love controlled-environment that much (cause looks like you don't want to take Apple route). Oh, and if you want to argue, learn 1st the topic, and be consistent. Then you will not look like a fool/airhead.

    Mir is DoA, IMO. Caused by Canonical usual behavior. When you stab many-many people in their back, then hope they will forgive you and do as you say.. well, I can say that it's won't happen. If you read this thread again without subjectivity, then you'll understand. Or you can googling too.

    Hopefully, with Mir announcement, Wayland will take better attention, faster development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    And it works great - it's the largest collaborative software project in the world, bringing us the most advanced, adaptable and flexible kernel in existence.
    It's the largest software engineering project in the history of mankind! Open or Closed.

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    There is a buzz as if something important were happening

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    I do not want happy-community projects which move on REALLY slowly, because of too much deciding people, too much shared code with other different projects. The hybrid-graphics support is one of the examples - the technology is quite popular for several years, yet we do not have proper support. And it's not because bad corporations dislike Linux, just because Linux can't simply support these things in easy and cheap to manage way. Yes we have emerging Wayland, but it still lacks hybrid graphics support and is in development for 5 years. Way too long. When to expect it being ready? 2016? 2018? Canonical has plans for 2014. Putting extra people and money wouldn't help, because of the lack of the control - fighting with community to add some features and remove other would take too much time and too much effort. For example: Canonical wants to throw away system tray and uses indicators to deal with programs in the background. There will be no such thing as system tray in Mir, because it only complicates the whole. Other distributions want tray, just because of "legacy programs". Conflict of goals.

    Nor do I want closed-source OS which can pack inside anything, be designed terribly wrong and does surprises on every corner.

    I want well designed, beautiful, OPEN product with no compromises. That's what Ubuntu's going to be.

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