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Thread: KDE 4.10 Officially Released With Many Changes

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post
    Nope this is no lie... KDE was, is, and will always be a tech demo for Qt... KDE devs always seem to want to use and demonstrate each new feature Qt develops, instead of focusing on improving their existing software which is full of bugs and other problems...
    You now they should use motif. If they had masturbated the same motif apps in 20 years now everything should be perfect.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by TemplarGR View Post
    Nope this is no lie... KDE was, is, and will always be a tech demo for Qt... KDE devs always seem to want to use and demonstrate each new feature Qt develops, instead of focusing on improving their existing software which is full of bugs and other problems...
    Even if that were true (which it isn't, Qt devs have come out with a ton of stuff KDE devs completely ignored because it wouldn't improve users' experiences with KDE), it still wouldn't mean that "KDE have to obey Qt.

    And it is absurd to call KDE a "tech demo for Qt". 90% of the stuff you can with the KDE you cannot do with Qt because KDE adds a ton of additional functionality. That is why it is so rare to see Qt-only Linux apps, KDE adds so much additional functionality there is pretty much no point.

    "Hey, this is KDE. Look at what you can do with Qt"
    "Cool, so I just download Qt and I can make my application do all that?"
    "Well...no..you need to download tens of megabytes of additional KDE libraries to do most of those things...but the low-level stuff runs on Qt!"
    "So why exactly should I use Qt instead of KDE?"

    Yeah, great tech demo there...

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS987 View Post
    KDE devs are forced to use QML because development of Widgets is stopped. Qt5 supports Widgets only because of backward compatibility.
    Right, that must be why all the desktop KDE applications are being rewritten in QML...oh wait, they aren't.

    You apparently don't know the difference between "deprecated" and "feature complete". QWidgets are considered feature complete, not deprecated. That means they will be in Qt 6. The may be marked as deprecated in Qt 6 and removed in Qt 7, but that is probably 15 years away.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLHerne View Post
    Much-ppa'd Mint KDE, and I know that's probably not the best solution. I might try Arch when I get time and/or a new HDD, presumably you'd recommend it...
    I was previously a Debian user, got fed up of the constant outdatedness (even in Testing).

    Power management is very broken - buttons don't do anything, DBus messages don't do anything, pretty much nothing does except shutdown -h -P now. . Screenlocker is quite shiny, but has the alarming characteristic of displaying the desktop/windows (no interaction, it hangs momentarily) for a bit before it slaps the locker on and asks for a password after resuming from suspend*.

    Plasmoid-wise, the device notifier doesn't reliably notify me about new devices, when it does the device action buttons often don't actually do anything. Notifications have a tendency to pop up where the bottom corner on my screen would be if it was 1024x768, the weather widget crashed plasma-desktop twice** while trying to get me a forecast, and the comic strip*** has had so many features stripped out (resizing to currently-displayed strip, show icons instead of words in the tab-bar...) that it's all but unusable in any role. It's useful if you want to look at exactly one comic, in which every strip is always an identical size - so not even Calvin&Hobbes, let alone the dozen-or-so wildly varying ones I had.

    *Yes, suspend works very occasionally, perhaps PM isn't _completely_ broken...
    **plasma-desktop has crashed itself a dozen times in a week, too. Given that 4.7 was quite good, 4.8 crashed once and I had no crashes at alll with 4.9, that's quite a big step back.
    ***It's not actually _important_, if important means productive, but I don't see the point in replacing something non-broken with something that simply isn't close to equivalent. Quite ridiculous.

    It certainly won't put me off KDE as a one-off (I put up with 4.0, after all ) - but it's certainly reduced my confidence that the devs are paying enough attention to QA; there are just so many things broken for me in this release.
    Honestly hate to give you this response, cuz I think its a but I dont know what else to do....

    1) File bug reports
    2) Test it on a system other than Debian/Ubuntu based before you really make a judgement.

    Why #2? Ubuntu and Debian add patches, pull from git, backport changes, they do a lot of crap that can screw it up. Its one of the reasons I moved to Arch, I got tired of Ubuntu messing with Upstream. At least with Arch I know its from an actual release branch (not git-master) and they probably didnt add patches in. My recommendations are Arch (obviously) or openSuse, if either of those distros still have the bugs you're facing (you could prob test openSuse from the latest release candidate live image) then report them. If not, chalk it up to being library version incompatibilities since you're mixing PPA's / patches from non-upstream / random ubuntu crap.

    I have had literally NONE of the problems you're describing, though I dont use the comic strip (do use the weather though, no problems) so its got to be something specific to your combination of software (/software versions)

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    You now they should use motif. If they had masturbated the same motif apps in 20 years now everything should be perfect.
    This is the best thing I've read all day.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    Right, that must be why all the desktop KDE applications are being rewritten in QML...oh wait, they aren't.

    You apparently don't know the difference between "deprecated" and "feature complete". QWidgets are considered feature complete, not deprecated. That means they will be in Qt 6. The may be marked as deprecated in Qt 6 and removed in Qt 7, but that is probably 15 years away.
    KDE already started transition to QML. Rewrite of all KDE application won't start tomorrow, but following years as Qt6 will be released around year 2020.
    http://kde.org/announcements/4.10/plasma.php
    Plasma Workspaces have been refined considerably. Work continues on updating widgets with new ones built with Qt Quick. This effort brings improvements in consistency, layout behavior, stability, ease of use and performance. It is also now easier to build widgets, entirely new Plasma Workspace layouts and other custom enhancements. A new QML-based screen locker makes Workspaces more secure.
    Qt5 Widgets aren't feature complete if e.g. hardware acceleration isn't supported unlike QML. Widgets are deprecated if Digia has decided Widgets won't support hardware acceleration.
    List of features supported by QML but unsupported by Widgets will grow which will cause devs to rewrite apps using QML.
    When all big apps will be rewritten, Digia will drop Widgets to save manpower needed for maintenance.
    Last edited by JS987; 03-02-2013 at 09:26 AM.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS987 View Post
    KDE already started transition to QML. Rewrite of all KDE application won't start tomorrow, but following years as Qt6 will be released around year 2020.

    Qt5 Widgets aren't feature complete if e.g. hardware acceleration isn't supported unlike QML. Widgets are deprecated if Digia has decided Widgets won't support hardware acceleration.
    List of features supported by QML but unsupported by Widgets will grow which will cause devs to rewrite apps using QML.
    When all big apps will be rewritten, Digia will drop Widgets to save manpower needed for maintenance.
    Are you kidding me? Do you realize that only now that Qt 5 is already out are the last parts of KDE SC are finally being ported away from qt3support? And this is when Qt4 provides clear advantages over Qt3, and where qt3support was explicitly deprecated. It was simply too much work despite the benefits.

    On the other hand QML has absolutely no benefit whatsoever for most desktop apps. Unless it is something that needs a lot of very fluid animations, like widgets or games, QML provides no benefit, in fact in some ways it makes it harder.

    Besides plasma, look at the QML applications being created right now. They are pretty much all completely separate applications from the desktop versions, only sharing underlying libraries and logic. Even in these situations, the situations where you would most expect them to want to use QML on the desktop, the developers have no plans whatsoever to port the desktop applications to QML.

    So yes, when all the major apps are no longer using qwidget them may deprecate it. But that looks to be a very, very long way off.

    QML has been around for over 3 years now, nearly half the lifespan of Qt4, and there is no move whatsoever towards porting any desktop applications to QML besides workspaces and games.

    Don't get me wrong, we probably will start seeing QML used to a limited extent in situations where its animations are needed. But all indications right now are that those will be the exception rather than the rule.
    Last edited by TheBlackCat; 03-02-2013 at 11:09 AM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    But all indications right now are that those will be the exception rather than the rule.
    So how many "expetions" do we need before you STFU? Everybody knows KDE is being pushed towards QML because of Qts QML legacy. Redoing in QML is low gain, high risk, high cost.

    Qt rapes KDE. LoL.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkSTAR View Post
    So how many "expetions" do we need before you STFU? Everybody knows KDE is being pushed towards QML because of Qts QML legacy. Redoing in QML is low gain, high risk, high cost. Qt rapes KDE. LoL.
    As I get it, Qwidget has a richer feature set than QtQuick (using QML) while both provide nearly the same functionality: http://arstechnica.com/information-t...es-with-qt-47/

    Qwidget was the original set and therefore a very large part of KDE is using that. QML was later gaining ground and has effectively replaced QWidget as the default class. Rewriting anything Qwidget into QML is a non-trivial task.

    I'm not sure if all is all that bad in the long run, if only maintenance of QWidget can be kept. From the arstechnica link:

    QML is designed to take advantage of Qt's powerful model/view/controller (MVC) framework, meaning that existing Qt applications designed around Qt's MVC classes will be easy to refit with a QML user interface. This opens up a path for bringing existing Qt desktop applications to mobile devices. Developers merely have to add a few roles to their model and then expose it to a QML view, where a touchscreen-friendly interface can be created with a little bit of declarative scripting.
    FWIW, also former Gnome-lover Canonical is in the same boat since two years, once they voluntarily jumped onto the Qt boat (http://qt-project.org/forums/viewthread/3214):

    The “Unity 2D” desktop is to provide a Unity environment without the need for OpenGL or any accelerated graphics drivers, but is built using Qt and QML.
    That should mean something for the long run.

    From that perspective alone, the QWidget class is deprecated, not KDE dying.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabriah View Post
    As I get it, Qwidget has a richer feature set than QtQuick (using QML) while both provide nearly the same functionality: http://arstechnica.com/information-t...es-with-qt-47/

    Qwidget was the original set and therefore a very large part of KDE is using that. QML was later gaining ground and has effectively replaced QWidget as the default class. Rewriting anything Qwidget into QML is a non-trivial task.

    I'm not sure if all is all that bad in the long run, if only maintenance of QWidget can be kept. From the arstechnica link:



    FWIW, also former Gnome-lover Canonical is in the same boat since two years, once they voluntarily jumped onto the Qt boat (http://qt-project.org/forums/viewthread/3214):



    That should mean something for the long run.

    From that perspective alone, the QWidget class is deprecated, not KDE dying.
    Youre apparently new on the forums Meet FunkSTAR, he's an anti-kde, anti-Qt troll that will refute any argument you give with the most vitriol and venom that he can muster at that moment in time. Recommendation? Ignore list

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