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Thread: Ubuntu Allegedly To Have Its Own X, Wayland Alternative

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    As long as "vendors" in your statement excludes Intel - who has OSS-ed the Intel HD drivers, quite frankly I don't care if the narcissists at NVidia or the day-late-and-a-dollar-short AMD/ATI folk don't port their GPU drivers to Wayland whatsoever. Just give me a laptop with Intel HD graphics, a solid Linux Intel HD GPU driver/OpenGL implementation that works with Wayland smoothly, and I will forego NVidia and AMD/ATI any day ... If I want to play games, I'll play them on my XBox....
    I'm sorry, here I thought you were talking about Android.

  2. #42
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    I recently evaluated all of the other distros since Ubuntu 12.10 was such a turd.

    What I discovered was that even though 12.10 sucks, it was still better than anybody else's.

    1. Mint - slightly less stable than Ubuntu, less useful desktop, it has nothing on Ubuntu
    2. Arch - A toy, not a real distro meant for real work
    3. Fedora - 17 was decent(except for the bugs), 18 is unbelievably shitty
    4. OpenSuse - Are they still around?
    5. Mageia - Might be contender someday, but not yet
    6. Debian - I appreciate them being the extremely FOSS-minded, but they always have a dinosaur kernel that can't boot a newer PC. Debian Unstable is... Unstable.

    So Android comes out of nowhere with it's own display server to become the dominant consumer OS, better than Windows OSX, iOS or anything else. Maybe Wayland isn't as good as everybody claims, and if Ubuntu can write something that's small, simple, and fast, and STILL beat Wayland to market, then why shouldn't they? Should they have also just went with Gnome3 instead of Unity so that they could be as crappy as Fedora 18? Or why not the perpetually buggy KDE? In all fairness though, the latest Gnome3 is so buggy that KDE is probably the stable one now, and I never thought I'd say that. More competition in Linux standards is great, because a some of the current standards suck and need to be dethroned by a new contender.

    Those of you that think Ubuntu should wait until Ubuntu 14.10, 16.10, or whenever to adopt Wayland when it's finally ready, probably have no credentials to be telling Ubuntu how to operate. Ubuntu just works, and the only other distro that can make that claim is RHEL and it's copy-cats, and RHEL accomplishes that by sitting on really old versions of software. Ubuntu is the only distro in LInux history that can properly do bleeding edge kernels and other software, I trust them over the armchair-quarterbacks of the internet.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I'm sorry, here I thought you were talking about Android.
    I really want to see Wayland corner the desktop (or laptop I should say, since I've not bought a desktop in 4+ years), and clearly Android and/or other mobile devices as well. I don't think it's a stretch to go all the way - tablets, ultra/net/lap-tops as well as smartphones.

    Tablets and smartphones may be where the money's at, but you also need to suck up to developers who aren't going to be coding on either of those two types of devices (unless they are truly masochistic)...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    As long as "vendors" in your statement excludes Intel - who has OSS-ed the Intel HD drivers, quite frankly I don't care if the narcissists at NVidia or the day-late-and-a-dollar-short AMD/ATI folk don't port their GPU drivers to Wayland whatsoever. Just give me a laptop with Intel HD graphics, a solid Linux Intel HD GPU driver/OpenGL implementation that works with Wayland smoothly, and I will forego NVidia and AMD/ATI any day ... If I want to play games, I'll play them on my XBox....
    I think the point there is that with a FOSS driver they do not need to port it - which is one of the strengths. Despite your badgering of AMD here I think they will do fairly well with the transition thanks to the good and growing AMD Gallium3D drivers, which might even get more attention thanks to Wayland.

    "All the drivers in Mesa that support DRI2 under X and have KMS support can run Wayland today. The reference Wayland compositor (Weston) has no chipset specific code, it's all done through generic Wayland EGL extensions and KMS. The support for Wayland is in the shared Mesa infrastructure, so when driver writers enable a new chipset in Mesa, it will automatically support Wayland."
    https://archive.fosdem.org/2012/inte...-hogsberg.html

    And please would everyone stop with the anti-gaming rhetoric every time games expose a problem with something. It is a challenge not an insult.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    I think the point there is that with a FOSS driver they do not need to port it - which is one of the strengths. Despite your badgering of AMD here I think they will do fairly well with the transition thanks to the good and growing AMD Gallium3D drivers, which might even get more attention thanks to Wayland.

    "All the drivers in Mesa that support DRI2 under X and have KMS support can run Wayland today. The reference Wayland compositor (Weston) has no chipset specific code, it's all done through generic Wayland EGL extensions and KMS. The support for Wayland is in the shared Mesa infrastructure, so when driver writers enable a new chipset in Mesa, it will automatically support Wayland."
    https://archive.fosdem.org/2012/inte...-hogsberg.html

    And please would everyone stop with the anti-gaming rhetoric every time games expose a problem with something. It is a challenge not an insult.
    Badgering AMD? Puhleeze! AMD only exists at the behest of Intel .

    Thanks for pointing out what I was implying - they are FOSS - anyone can 'port' them. It's not that I'm anti-gaming- you don't gotta go rip me a new one - I only said it because I'd rather have a slick/sick Wayland-based business/app desktop at the expense of a slick gaming display server, at least in the first iteration of Wayland.

    Wayland's #1 goal is to get Wayland into a usable state so that X can run on it smoothly, paving the bridge for X->Wayland migration, for no one who ever tried to supplant X outright actually succeeded, and now when we have a golden opportunity, perhaps one in a lifetime kind of opportunity, to move away from X while not forgetting X, it'd be a crying shame to allow our egos to blow this one...
    Last edited by MartinN; 02-04-2013 at 09:13 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    Thanks for pointing out what I was implying - they are FOSS - anyone can 'port' them. It's not that I'm anti-gaming- you don't gotta go rip me a new one - I only said it because I'd rather have a slick/sick Wayland-based business/app desktop at the expense of a slick gaming display server, at least in the first iteration of Wayland.
    I'm not sure how your "point" addresses the difficulty I brought up in moving Android over to Wayland. I don't think there are any FOSS GPU vendors yet on Android.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I'm not sure how your "point" addresses the difficulty I brought up in moving Android over to Wayland. I don't think there are any FOSS GPU vendors yet on Android.
    Not yet, there isn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I'm not sure how your "point" addresses the difficulty I brought up in moving Android over to Wayland. I don't think there are any FOSS GPU vendors yet on Android.
    What does "being on Android" mean in this context ? The AMD and Intel open source drivers have been working in Android-x86 for ~2 years now, and I wouldn't be surprised if others are working as well. I haven't heard of any ARM CPU + AMD GPU systems running in the wild yet though, if that's what you meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    What does "being on Android" mean in this context ? The AMD and Intel open source drivers have been working in Android-x86 for ~2 years now, and I wouldn't be surprised if others are working as well. I haven't heard of any ARM CPU + AMD GPU systems running in the wild yet though, if that's what you meant.
    Most "real" Android devices consumers actually care about are running ARM SOCs with a proprietary GPU. Google needs those drivers supporting Wayland. Fringe tablets running Intel or AMD GPUs might already work with Wayland, but are not super relevant to consumers right now. Tegra, PowerVR, Mali, and so on rule the Android device market, not Intel or AMD GPUs.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by porkbutt View Post
    I recently evaluated all of the other distros since Ubuntu 12.10 was such a turd.

    What I discovered was that even though 12.10 sucks, it was still better than anybody else's.
    Well this is where I feel like I'm up crap's creek. It seems that each new release of Ubuntu is worse than the prior and Canonical seems completely pleased knowing the turd is swirling around the bowl. But as bad as it is, the only reasonable alternative seems to be to abandon Linux altogether. I think I'll just stick with 12.04 for as long as possible, and try to work around its shortcomings.

    So Android comes out of nowhere with it's own display server to become the dominant consumer OS, better than Windows OSX, iOS or anything else. Maybe Wayland isn't as good as everybody claims, and if Ubuntu can write something that's small, simple, and fast, and STILL beat Wayland to market, then why shouldn't they? Should they have also just went with Gnome3 instead of Unity so that they could be as crappy as Fedora 18? Or why not the perpetually buggy KDE? In all fairness though, the latest Gnome3 is so buggy that KDE is probably the stable one now, and I never thought I'd say that. More competition in Linux standards is great, because a some of the current standards suck and need to be dethroned by a new contender.

    Those of you that think Ubuntu should wait until Ubuntu 14.10, 16.10, or whenever to adopt Wayland when it's finally ready, probably have no credentials to be telling Ubuntu how to operate. Ubuntu just works, and the only other distro that can make that claim is RHEL and it's copy-cats, and RHEL accomplishes that by sitting on really old versions of software. Ubuntu is the only distro in LInux history that can properly do bleeding edge kernels and other software, I trust them over the armchair-quarterbacks of the internet.
    I've never been into the Wayland hype myself, as the project claims to bring pretty much nothing better than X except cleaner code and protocols. From a user perspective, big whoop. As far as I can see, no real new "features" are actually planned, and Windows 7 & 8 continue to have far more advanced display servers.

    So in that sense, if Canonical wanted to do something better I could definitely get excited. But it's Canonical. And looking at the way things have been going recently, nearly every move is hair-brained and hardly beneficial for the user. And, worse, quality is garbage. If Apple's slogan was "It just works!" then Canonical's is clearly "It just doesn't work... and we don't care... and we're pushing it out the door anyway." So I have very high doubts about their ability to pull off a desktop-quality display server without cutting major corners. In 12.10 the end-user could not even *install* proprietary drivers without borking his system. And this group is going to write a whole display server that works?

    Canonical keeps talking about bringing in the new users, and getting the non-tech savvy people into the fold. You know... "Linux for human beings." But they seem to be avoiding the fact that critical show-stopping bugs (like black screens on boot -- insanely common in Ubuntu now) are absolutely unacceptable to non-tech savvy people. Yeah maybe we can dump into a console and restart LightDM or re-install the nvidia-current package or whatever the solution, but expecting that of people who are new to Linux is just asinine.

    And they don't care. They're more concerned with all these superficial, valueless changes like collapsing the Software Updater or having the Scopes perform searches on a central database or whatever other "improvement" that is entirely moot when all I've got is a blinking cursor.

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