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Thread: Valve Confirms Linux Steam Box Will Be Open Platform

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    In the context of an off-the-shelf console it would certainly not be ordinary to expect the customer to install drivers before use.

    Obviously a "Steam Box" would have to have proprietary drivers pre-installed or it's DOA as a consumer product.
    I was referring to the case of normal PC usage here, yes. Obviously a Steambox would be pre-configured for the prospective end user, and as I previously said they may as well use blob drivers as Steam itself is not free and they are not going to be supporting a moving target with it. I would advise anyone who would get upset with the notion of the Steambox using blobs to consider the wider picture here, and I am very satisfied R600g user who supports FOSS initiatives (which I why I am not going to get the Steambox, but anyway...)

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    hardworking innocent hardware vendors. I am sensing irony here. What makes these vendors guilty until proven innocent? Cause I always read in these threads the idea that the FOSS guys are good and somehow AMD and Nvidia are evil. Why this assumption? Why every time I challenge this assumption I am told that FOSS good hardware vendors bad? Is this some kind of cult here?
    No, you are sensing satire here based on the expressions used by both extremes. Actually, my main point with this is to say that all of these conspiracy arguments are black and white, and that they always seem to put one camp in glowing terms against some unnameable evil. So in a way I am agreeing with you, in an offhanded way. Still, there is the fact that when one buys a vendor's product it puts the onus on them to support it for the consumer's work case, which at least puts the onus of action on the vendor if nothing else. So the assumption that the vendors should step up support is at least somewhat validated in this way.

    Also, I selectively buy AMD hardware, so I can not think of them to be that evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    Nowadays, Windows just automatically downloads/installs the drivers once it sees the hardware for the first time, without user intervention. (Sometimes, this is a BAD thing, like when you want to remove a driver to install a newer version, and Windows re-downloads the old driver because its database isn't updated yet.) But still, seamless to the user. Since I built my Win 7 x64 PC, I can't remember having to manually install a single driver (aside from occasional GPU driver updates, of course).
    I will admit to not having that much real Windows experience beyond XP, so I was going on the information given by others. That being said, I have seen even modern Windows systems bork on hardware changes while I have moved Linux installs from machine to machine with little to no problems due to the in-kernel driver model (which is one of my main pragmatic reasons for supporting free software drivers). That, and the fact that that drivers which make it into the Kernel tend to last longer and have better support times than many Windows or blob drivers do. So a properly tuned free driver should be expected to provide an even more seamless experience than that. I do recognize that I am not really touching on the main subject of your post there, though.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    ... I always read in these threads the idea that the FOSS guys are good and somehow AMD and Nvidia are evil. ...
    Geez, where does that leave the AMD FOSS guys ?

  3. #43
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    In an ideal world, the FOSS drivers would get to a point where we would barely need to worry about using the blob drivers and then the Out of the Box functionality and stability in terms of graphic drivers would far surpass even Windows.

    For the time being though, if it's possible, I would have thought they would have to use Catalyst (in SteamBox). Which is maybe a little surprising if it actually is going to be an AMD machine, but I can't say this is a bad thing. NVIDIA might be the easiest way, but going with AMD could not only help that company out, but improve one of the drivers (blob or FOSS driver depending on what is used by default).

    It's all very early doors though, things could change.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Yes, but saying advocacy is tyranny is still a tyrannical position in of itself, and a position which has promoted tyranny a lot more often than these "blind advocates" (speaking of strawmen...) that you make mention of.
    Wow. There are so many things wrong with this that I'm not sure where to start. Who are you arguing against? Certainly not me. I have labeled no one a "blind advocate" of anything. What I said was that blind advocacy and bandwagon group-think is ill-considered, and they should be avoided for that reason alone.

    The main thing that keeps tyranny going is apathy, which is what a lot of people who state they are on the side of "pragmatism" often accept and promote.
    Not necessarily.
    You can complain about someones actions, you can even criticize another's words, but please don't tell me someone can not promote a position for fear of tyranny. Because really, is that not the censor's argument, that we need it to prevent the spread of dangerous ideas in society?
    Bait and switch. Also, Missing the Point. I'm not saying that promoting a position should be curbed for fear of tyranny. I'm saying absolutist positions which demand everyone kowtow to their way of doing things, and then degrading and generally bashing anyone who resists ... well sir, that's the mark of an idiot. Those who behave thus are just a wee bit of power away from being tyrants.

    Now let us be done with the "T" word and its derivatives.

    And then there are people calling out FOSS users and developers saying they are idiots or tyrants, and that they are actively conspiring against these hardworking innocent hardware vendors. Seriously, have you not read a Phoronix thread before?
    I suppose I have failed to make myself clear. I am suggesting caution. I am also formally requesting that when arguing with me, you actually stick to the arguments I make instead of projecting those of others on me. Most often I don't agree with them.

  5. #45
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    To the best of my knowledge there is still no proof that Valve plan to use Xi3 for their own steam box, it is far more likely Xi3 are one of the many partners that Vavle are talking with to make Steam compatible devices. From what I have been reading Valve plan to design their own Steam box but are also allowing 3rd parties to design and distribute their own with a variety of hardware levels and price points. This article makes a lot of that more clear: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/8/385...ture-of-gaming

    So we really have no idea what they have in store harware wise for their own Steam box, other than what Gabe has alluded to with the fact that the "better" level they plan to focus on will have dedicated CPU and GPU, meaning an AMD APU is likely not even on the table for the official Valve Steam box. Nvidia seems to have a better working relationship with Valve and have the best driver options to date on Linux, my money would be on Valve going with Nvidia and the proprietary blob.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larian View Post
    Wow. There are so many things wrong with this that I'm not sure where to start. Who are you arguing against? Certainly not me. I have labeled no one a "blind advocate" of anything. What I said was that blind advocacy and bandwagon group-think is ill-considered, and they should be avoided for that reason alone.
    Actually, you were labelling some of the people here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Larian View Post
    Some of the noise being made here on this subject (and their numbers are, thankfully, few) sounds remarkably like that of a dictator without a sufficiently large fan club. In common parlance they are oftentimes referred to as "wackos and nut jobs". I fear them with power, because they haven't demonstrated temperance with the "you're either with us or you're against us" stand on using proprietary drivers.
    You may have tempered your statement, but that does not absolve you from actually having done it. If you think it is fair to do that, fine, but please don't say you have not done it.

    I will also temper my statement by saying I do feel it is somewhat unfortunate that this has taken on such a aggressive tone.

    Moving on to another point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Larian View Post
    I'm not saying that promoting a position should be curbed for fear of tyranny. I'm saying absolutist positions which demand everyone kowtow to their way of doing things, and then degrading and generally bashing anyone who resists ... well sir, that's the mark of an idiot. Those who behave thus are just a wee bit of power away from being tyrants.
    They may or not be idiots depending on your opinion of their actions but even then they are not yet tyrants and you probably should be cautious about using the word like this. Save it for people who actually have power and deserve it. You can argue your point without labelling other people with these heavy, important markers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larian View Post
    I suppose I have failed to make myself clear. I am suggesting caution. I am also formally requesting that when arguing with me, you actually stick to the arguments I make instead of projecting those of others on me. Most often I don't agree with them.
    Please note that this is a forum thread, and as such, my comments will reflect the discussion as a whole and not just a specific person. If I am talking specifically about you I will mention you as part of my statement.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Actually, you were labelling some of the people here:
    No, I did not. In fact, I didn't call anybody anything nor brand anyone with a term of opprobrium. However I can see where it might look as if I did. Mentioning that some people "sound like dictators without a sufficiently large fan club" is not calling them a dictator. It's saying they are making statements seemingly designed to impose their will on the majority. Nor is saying that such people are "often referred to as 'wackos and nutjobs'" isn't calling them crazy - it's saying that other people might.

    They may or not be idiots depending on your opinion of their actions but even then they are not yet tyrants and you probably should be cautious about using the word like this. Save it for people who actually have power and deserve it. You can argue your point without labelling other people with these heavy, important markers.
    I'm pretty sure you were the one who brought out the T word, but I can't check because it's too far back in the post history. My apologies if I am mistaken. Might have been BO$$.

    But the meat of my point here is that it should not matter what they "yet" are or are not - and I'm pretty sure I've already explained why. Just as an argument should stand or fail based upon its own merits, I believe an individual (or a group of them when of like mind), should be assessed, commended, reprimanded, or dismissed based on their proclamations and actions. The alternative is to give people license to be any kind of dick they want to be right up until they cobble together an army.

    Please note that this is a forum thread, and as such, my comments will reflect the discussion as a whole and not just a specific person. If I am talking specifically about you I will mention you as part of my statement.
    Provided you aren't directly quoting me, I have no problem with that.

    I note that the 20% rule has struck again - about 20% of meaning and intent actually comes across in text. I assure you I'm not trying to bash you or anyone else in particular. It just tends to sound that way from a casual reading when addressing points at this level. Go put on your thickest skin and have a pint or five and it'll look better. Promise.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larian View Post
    I note that the 20% rule has struck again - about 20% of meaning and intent actually comes across in text. I assure you I'm not trying to bash you or anyone else in particular. It just tends to sound that way from a casual reading when addressing points at this level. Go put on your thickest skin and have a pint or five and it'll look better. Promise.
    Actually, that is probably true for both of us.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Are they allowed to ship the box with the proprietary drivers?
    Isn't it more likely that they ship it with the open drivers and provide a manual installer for the proprietary drivers which
    downloads and installs them on behalf of the user? They need at least some kind of "disclaimer", don't they?
    yes thats true... they will do that or they will get sued and will loose that... they dont want that to happen I guess...


    just dont get the point... it does not say anything about free drivers are bad or good or anything else... its just boring facts... closed source drivers are not allowed to get included... install it easily no big deal... but at least the users read something about that they agree to install proprietary nvidia drivers or something... some dont bother, some do... the people buying this hardware most likely dont...

    I dont understand how somebody make here a war out of it... of course the opensource drivers are not fast enough to play latest highend commercial games with maximum fps... nobody said something else... valve is using this console for a gaming console for propriatary only games...

    there is just no point in using a free driver to play propriatary games... except maybe at least the games maybe dont have root-rights to make security holes like the nvidia driver did...


    its basicly what I do too... I try to seperate the worlds as far as possible... on one machine I go completly propriatary stuff... ok some small opensource tools are mixed in too... on the other linux non-gaming machines... I try to use as less propriatary stuff as possible... there I would even like to use coreboot...

    so if you use some propriatary parts in your system its compromised anyway... it doesnt matter much then to mix in some opensource parts... except when they are better/cheaper or even when they are good enough because at least they only do what they are supposed to and often they dont use minimal system-resources, but you have a compromised or tainted system...

    just my 2 cents...
    Last edited by blackiwid; 01-09-2013 at 09:31 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nille View Post
    Technical Documents talk about an Trinity APU. Currently is the xi3 website down so i cant link the informations:/
    But this is not steambox.

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