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Thread: The X API Is About 15 Times Bigger Than Wayland

  1. #11
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    Default Well

    In time Wayland will get a bit bigger, and perhaps X.org will cut some weight.

  2. #12
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    I think that one of the problems with X is that in order to truthfully advertise its ability to speaking the X11 protocol, lots of old cruft is required that isn't used any more, so there is a limit to what can be removed whilst still legitimately calling it an X11 server.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Of course.

    It supports less functionality.
    Wayland will run MULTIPLE X servers, SIMULTANEOUSLY with NO PERFORMANCE PENALTY.

    If by "less functionality" you mean "more functionality" then I would agree with you.

    Or perhaps you think that tearing video and poor support for transparency are "more functionality"
    Last edited by frantaylor; 10-17-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by uid313 View Post
    In time Wayland will get a bit bigger, and perhaps X.org will cut some weight.
    Weight is not a factor when a $35 Raspberry Pi runs X windows like a champion.

    If $5 worth of video card can run X windows better than any Sun or SGI workstation then its "bloat" is MOST CERTAINLY NOT an issue.

    WOW! The X Server uses a WHOLE 16 MEGABYTES of RAM on my Raspberry Pi! WHAT A HEAVY WEIGHT PROGRAM! Oh My Goodness, it makes sed and grep look like firefox!
    Last edited by frantaylor; 10-17-2012 at 06:03 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantaylor View Post
    Weight is not a factor when a $35 Raspberry Pi runs X windows like a champion.

    If $5 worth of video card can run X windows better than any Sun or SGI workstation then its "bloat" is MOST CERTAINLY NOT an issue.
    If I recall and understand correctly, X needs to do about 15 communications between applications for each resize event. (Possibly more, I think some where removed for simplicity from the example .. )
    In the same case Wayland can do with ~3.
    That's just part of what can be called bloat in X.
    Like much code not used by pretty much anything today, but needing to be maintained(and possibly loaded?).
    Btw, how well does your Raspberry Pi run compiz effects btw?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rigaldo View Post
    If I recall and understand correctly, X needs to do about 15 communications between applications for each resize event. (Possibly more, I think some where removed for simplicity from the example .. )
    In the same case Wayland can do with ~3.
    That's just part of what can be called bloat in X.
    Like much code not used by pretty much anything today, but needing to be maintained(and possibly loaded?).
    Btw, how well does your Raspberry Pi run compiz effects btw?
    What will compiz fusion do for the raspberry pi? It doesn't have enough CPU horsepower to run a compiz fusion desktop. THAT is where the bloat is, ON THE DESKTOP, NOT the X server.

    I'm NOT arguing against wayland, I think it's great! But BLOAT is not the reason to switch.

    If BLOAT was a legitimate reason to dump software then Windows would have been toast decades ago.

    New CPUs arrive with regularity, and yesterdays bloated mess is today's normal workload.

    Shit we used to joke that emacs was a terrible memory hog, but the modern Notepad uses more system resources, and now emacs (bigger than ever!) is slim and trim in comparison.
    Last edited by frantaylor; 10-17-2012 at 06:23 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantaylor View Post
    What will compiz fusion do for the raspberry pi? It doesn't have enough CPU horsepower to run a compiz fusion desktop. THAT is where the bloat is, ON THE DESKTOP, NOT the X server.

    I'm NOT arguing against wayland, I think it's great! But BLOAT is not the reason to switch.

    If BLOAT was a legitimate reason to dump software then Windows would have been toast decades ago.

    New CPUs arrive with regularity, and yesterdays bloated mess is today's normal workload.

    Shit we used to joke that emacs was a terrible memory hog, but the modern Notepad uses more system resources, and now emacs (bigger than ever!) is slim and trim in comparison.
    Ok, I meant that things X does can be done much more efficiently. And lags in some operations are visible. Except if even openbox is bloated ..
    I asked about compiz out of curiosity mostly. Bloat also has to do with code, as I mentioned.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantaylor View Post
    What will compiz fusion do for the raspberry pi? It doesn't have enough CPU horsepower to run a compiz fusion desktop. THAT is where the bloat is, ON THE DESKTOP, NOT the X server.

    I'm NOT arguing against wayland, I think it's great! But BLOAT is not the reason to switch.

    If BLOAT was a legitimate reason to dump software then Windows would have been toast decades ago.

    New CPUs arrive with regularity, and yesterdays bloated mess is today's normal workload.

    Shit we used to joke that emacs was a terrible memory hog, but the modern Notepad uses more system resources, and now emacs (bigger than ever!) is slim and trim in comparison.
    Bloat is a very significant issue to developers, specifically maintainers and newcomers trying to learn the "right way" to get a job done. In the end, happier developers equal happier users, so code bloat is a very good reason to reinvent the protocol. It's not about memory, or even performance, although both are also key points in it's favor, they're not the main issues. Like all new things, there will be growing pains, but in the end it should pay off very well.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverthorn View Post
    Simply because Wayland lacks some features compared to X does not in any way imply that it has less features. Instead I would say that Wayland has more features than X due to it having exactly the capabilities which X lacks. The sections of X that will not be implemented in Wayland should be counted as a positive feature of Wayland.
    I couldn't agree more.

  10. #20
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    The slowest thing I have ever ran compiz on is a mobile radeon M6 if I remember right only 8Mb vram... The windows wobbled fine... it did cause CPU load but this was on a Crusoe tm5800 (roughly equivalent to a p1 @ 400Mhz) so that isn't saying much. So really the compiz tax itself isn't that high even on X11.. and it should be lower on Wayland.

    Edit:
    It was also AGP 1x as the AGP 2x doesn't work properly on that system.

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