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Thread: Why Mono Is Desirable For Linux

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    Microsoft controls the main .NET implementation.Microsoft uses more than an ecma standard. It's not good to use a api standard controlled mainly by microsoft .This is not good to be a default language for linux.Linux does not need this.Using .net for linux helps microsoft a lot.


    Mono is not capable to compete against microsoft .net for windows.People always use Ms.net than Mono for windows. Mono only helps spread .net on linux .Does not help to promote an alternative to microsoft .net for windows user.Mono is not a independent entity.Mono follows microsoft because everyone uses ms .net as standard.Mono needs to follow .net standard ,because everyone uses microsoft.
    The idea that Mono is not capable of competing Microsoft is at best questionable. Even it would be so, on Linux there is no .Net and people that want to target Linux they need to use the "non competing alternative" like Mono or dotGNU. Also Mono may be picked just for performance reasons, they may be a better alternative than Dalvik. Or it may be picked for the reason that offers code-completion in developing OpenGL, a Gtk+ visual designer that do not suck much (like the MonoDevelop's Stetic), or because it can use the database connectors of .Net in a non-Windows machine. Or just because it bundles a JVM in the same package on Windows (I mean IKVM), so you can work in a software that uses both.

    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    Mono trolls like jo shields(directhex) (more or less 4-5 years on trolling since 2008),uses terms like "conspiracy theorists" ,"haters" ,"freetards" and other.
    Ad-hominem: it does not bring any more credibility of your argument. Even he would be a troll. Are you criticizing his points or his person? If he use words like "haters" - yes, people that dislike and use strong words are certainly haters. The ones that say that Microsoft is in part of Linux, are based on the definition of "conspiracy theorists" and so on.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    The idea that Mono is not capable of competing Microsoft is at best questionable. Even it would be so, on Linux there is no .Net and people that want to target Linux they need to use the "non competing alternative" like Mono or dotGNU. Also Mono may be picked just for performance reasons, they may be a better alternative than Dalvik. Or it may be picked for the reason that offers code-completion in developing OpenGL, a Gtk+ visual designer that do not suck much (like the MonoDevelop's Stetic), or because it can use the database connectors of .Net in a non-Windows machine. Or just because it bundles a JVM in the same package on Windows (I mean IKVM), so you can work in a software that uses both.


    Ad-hominem: it does not bring any more credibility of your argument. Even he would be a troll. Are you criticizing his points or his person? If he use words like "haters" - yes, people that dislike and use strong words are certainly haters. The ones that say that Microsoft is in part of Linux, are based on the definition of "conspiracy theorists" and so on.
    Mono have some use cases ,but not like directhex and mono guys promote.

    People are not hater because they use strong words or dislike something if they prove using good arguments.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    It's not hate(a common troll attack.Please call me "mono hater and conspiracy theorist") .It's common sense.Mono should focus on porting .net windows-only apps for cross platform .net apps.Mono should not promote .net as a "wonderful" tool.
    Why not? If developers like C#, they can damn well do as they please. There is not, despite how much this may shock you, a form that must be filled out by all developers asking permission to write a program, which needs to be signed off by lapis from Phoronix who approves their choices of language or framework.

    Using an api controlled by microsoft gives more money/control opportunity for microsoft and the abuse of patents.
    How does writing Banshee in C# give money to Microsoft?

    The sims ? Work on windows only.
    Yet again you try to argue authority when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    http://store.apple.com/uk/product/TV...ms-3-Mac-Games

    I don t see real development to compete against microsoft .net.
    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    Mac ,android are proprietary versions.
    Wrong again. Android and iOS are proprietary, largely as a result of the licensing requirements for static linking of LGPL2 code being distasteful to end users (and not an option on anti-GPL Apple app store). Mac is not remotely proprietary - the main Mono repo at github.com/mono/mono has the runtime/classlib, and github.com/mono/monomac has all the GUI bindings

    And it helps to promote .net on non supported microsoft platforms..
    Wait, I thought Mono couldn't be an alternative to Microsoft.NET. How can you run .NET on non-Microsoft-supported platforms if Mono isn't an alternative to .NET?

    As for promotion? Yeah. It says "hey, you could share most of your code across Linux, Mac, Windows, Windows Phone, iOS, and Android, if you use C# and use Mono" - it's promoting Mono as a way to make C# more attractive to people who don't want to be locked in to Microsoft platforms. But in lapisland, Microsoft lock in is great and should be celebrated.

    Python is a open standard
    Wrong. It has an open specification, but is not standardized by anyone therefore cannot be an open standard. An open standard is something like ECMA-262 (Javascript).

    and cross platform.
    Except for mobile. Good job nobody uses smartphones anymore, right?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    if they prove using good arguments.
    Wake me when you have one of those.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Why not? If developers like C#, they can damn well do as they please. There is not, despite how much this may shock you, a form that must be filled out by all developers asking permission to write a program, which needs to be signed off by lapis from Phoronix who approves their choices of language or framework.

    How does writing Banshee in C# give money to Microsoft?

    Yet again you try to argue authority when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

    http://store.apple.com/uk/product/TV...ms-3-Mac-Games

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    Wrong again. Android and iOS are proprietary, largely as a result of the licensing requirements for static linking of LGPL2 code being distasteful to end users (and not an option on anti-GPL Apple app store). Mac is not remotely proprietary - the main Mono repo at github.com/mono/mono has the runtime/classlib, and github.com/mono/monomac has all the GUI bindings

    Wait, I thought Mono couldn't be an alternative to Microsoft.NET. How can you run .NET on non-Microsoft-supported platforms if Mono isn't an alternative to .NET?

    As for promotion? Yeah. It says "hey, you could share most of your code across Linux, Mac, Windows, Windows Phone, iOS, and Android, if you use C# and use Mono" - it's promoting Mono as a way to make C# more attractive to people who don't want to be locked in to Microsoft platforms. But in lapisland, Microsoft lock in is great and should be celebrated.

    Wrong. It has an open specification, but is not standardized by anyone therefore cannot be an open standard. An open standard is something like ECMA-262 (Javascript).

    Except for mobile. Good job nobody uses smartphones anymore, right?
    Promoting .net for linux helps microsoft sell more tools ,more documentations ,more training,more control over platforms (look silverlight and moonlight = fail) and more patents.

    Mono for ios and android are proprietary.Xamarin sells theses packages.Microsoft helps funding xamarin.

    Mono is not an alternative to MS .NET.Mono only promotes .net on non supported microsoft platforms

    Calling people conspiracy theorist,hater does not justify because people give arguments even if you don t understand these arguments.

    Other toolkits have good portability.There s no need to write apps using only mono or "recomend" 10000 times to linux user write new software using mono.Open source software is very portable these days.Portability is one of requirements of good software .It's not the only one.

    And stop troll attacks.


    And yes, i Know python is not a "formal"standard ,but it's better than some "formal" standards .

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    ... open source. Unless you're saying that, for example, the Linux kernel is not open source because it violates some patents?

    Because that would go against their interests, and their interests are more important than shaking their fists over dubious patents.

    Again, Sony are their biggest rivals in the gaming space. Billions at stake. Sony are betting a LOT on the Playstation Mobile SDK, for Vita and Android - and that's Mono. If anyone's a target, Sony are the target. You're assuming that 1) Sony's army of lawyers knows less about patents than you do, 2) that you've done more detailed risk analyses than they have.

    If you think Sony would have put the resources they have into PSM without spending a *lot* of lawyer time looking at the patent question, then you're incredibly naive.

    True. Who's shipping that integrated environment, exactly?


    I'm sure he did. Voxel engines are hard work.
    some snips, idk how to multiquote


    im saying that even thou it is open source that dosent mean they cant sue for patents and then the part in question would have to be reimplemented in another way
    what is not a huge problem unless the patent covers a call, then the app written with that call would get the short end

    on the other hand i didnt know about sony being in that, also sony has the money to pay off microsoft in order to use its products

    thing about big companies is they are calculated and above all without morals, so dont get into bed with a big company unless you got a condom


    from what i read unreal engine has a great SDK and cheap licences for indie devs, unigine also
    unreal runs on everything, idk about unigine
    im sure theres more companies like that (unity for example)

    what would be so evil for a company(even a small one) to write a SDK that uses MIT licenced open source stuff and licences it MIT ?


    also im no expert, but making a minecraft like game engine... instancing instancing all the boxes
    its not like it has some advanced lighting, or... what does it have at all so special

    before i forget, using loooots of memory to represent a instanced world with low res textures....
    anything not running while the game is running, who cares whats it programed in
    but the game engine written in C# is... affordable i guess, that must be why so many devs you speak of do it
    Last edited by gens; 09-16-2012 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    Promoting .net for linux helps microsoft sell more tools ,more documentations ,more training,more control over platforms (look silverlight and moonlight = fail) and more patents.

    Mono for ios and android are proprietary.Xamarin sells theses packages.Microsoft helps funding xamarin.
    [...]
    And yes, i Know python is not a "formal"standard ,but it's better than some "formal" standards .
    I think that this was also the point of the article: a software engineer is paid from some hundreds of dollars to some tens thousands. The tool price for software engineers is important, but Linux without applications, is like the WebOS: very standard but not targeted.
    If you lose, if you will use the very same rant on Android, the talk will be about Java and Android: you help Oracle indirectly when you develop on Android (if you don't use Xamarin). If you are serious about developing you have to buy closed hardware (is any open-hardware Android phone!?), if you don't buy a Nexus, most of the time you use a draconian carrier. Is it better with Windows Phone? Or with iOS? Android will block you between different corporations, either way!
    The idea that Microsoft gets tools, is really great, not for Microsoft, but for people that are using those tools. Do you want that developers to not use Microsoft tools? Contribute to MonoDevelop or SharpDevelop project. Really, nothing stops you (excluding your ideology) to do so. And developers, given the opportunity, will use those tools.
    Most of Firefox is developed with Visual Studio and with XCode. Do you care that Apple gets licenses and sells hardware if you can use Firefox? Do you care if Google contribute to LLVM's Clang to improve code quality? Do you care if Google use for most of their Java development the paid version of IntelliJ IDEA or Perforce? Or you care about which software they bring to you?
    Why would a developer not use the best tool even if is expensive? DevC++ was the IDE I used in university to compile my C++ programs. It was written in proprietary Delphi. So what? If basically one developer could finish the challenge to finish an IDE that people can use, I did not mind that he used Delphi, why should I?

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    I just love how Phoronix attracts the kind of diseased conspiracy theorist minds that cannot even begin to conceive of a universe without a bogeyman under the bed
    Why, excellent argumentation tactic here! You are really a professional of your job! Now, lets not prevent you from doing your job mr boogeyman, should we? We don't want to have boogeyman fired and his corrupt corporation bankrupt, no. Having money is always better than having clean conscience. In the end, there would be no place for boogiemen in open sane world.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapis View Post
    Promoting .net for linux helps microsoft sell more tools ,more documentations ,more training,more control over platforms (look silverlight and moonlight = fail) and more patents.
    Silverlight failed for various reasons - primarily being too late to be competitive with the Flash monopoly, and partly that workers in offices couldn't install Silverlight when prompted to by the latest silly little browser games. And The death of Silverlight was no victory. When ITV still used Silverlight, you could watch streaming TV with a 100% Free Software stack. When they shifted to Flash, that stopped. How is that a victory for Freedom? Or do you hate Microsoft so much you'd rather see a world where Linux users are bound by proprietary software than one where Microsoft and Free Software exist in the same context?

    Mono for ios and android are proprietary.Xamarin sells theses packages.Microsoft helps funding xamarin.
    More conspiracy theorist mumbo jumbo.

    Microsoft has never funded Xamarin. Three venture capital firms recently funded Xamarin, and one of those firms has a few ex-Microsoft people on staff. A bunch of ex-Microsoft people are rich, and fund activities which don't help Microsoft. Ever heard of "Gabe Newell"?

    Mono is not an alternative to MS .NET.Mono only promotes .net on non supported microsoft platforms
    You're still utterly incoherent on this point.

    I'd ask you to simply say whether Jython and PyPy are alternatives to Python or not, but judging by every single "argument" you've ever engaged with, you won't actually answer a single point I make & will ignore basic queries.

    Calling people conspiracy theorist,hater does not justify because people give arguments even if you don t understand these arguments.
    You're a conspiracy theorist because your arguments are based on the idea that there is a secret conspiracy in the background backing up your points. Mono is dangerous because SECRET PATENTS! Mono is dangerous because SECRET DEALS!

    Other toolkits have good portability.There s no need to write apps using only mono or "recomend" 10000 times to linux user write new software using mono.Open source software is very portable these days.Portability is one of requirements of good software .It's not the only one.
    Plenty of toolkits are plenty portable.

    But that still doesn't excuse arrogant assholes saying to third party developers "NO, YOU MAY NOT PROGRAM IN FRAMEWORKS WHICH LACK MY SEAL OF APPROVAL"

    And stop troll attacks.
    Pot calling the kettle black, perhaps?

    And yes, i Know python is not a "formal"standard ,but it's better than some "formal" standards .
    So you knew Python wasn't a standard but deliberately said it was anyway, in the hope that nobody would notice? Where I'm from, we call that "lying"

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    Why, excellent argumentation tactic here! You are really a professional of your job! Now, lets not prevent you from doing your job mr boogeyman, should we? We don't want to have boogeyman fired and his corrupt corporation bankrupt, no. Having money is always better than having clean conscience. In the end, there would be no place for boogiemen in open sane world.
    Just to verify: you're formally alleging that my activities online are as the result of payments by some corporate entity, and not a service to help shine a light on morons? State your claims clearly and succinctly.

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