Microsoft Hosts: GNOME & Mono Festival of Love

[kraftman]

I like Audacious, Deadbeef and qmmp. At least those are players and meant to actually play music. Not to manage "albums" or "tracks" or whatever in some strange and awkward ways while lacking very basic music playback settings. Amarok is more CD ROM covers manager than player .

There are many very good Qt players. We have a quite big choice.

[kraftman]

Amarok takes 10 gig! (rounding up to the nearest 10 gig)

What are you talking about?

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against availability of games (3 Humble Bundle games, for example: Bastion, Spacechem, Atom Zombie Smasher)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against competitive performance for managed apps (i.e. the balance of RAM and CPU and disk used by Mono is highly competitive with any other popular managed language framework used on Linux)

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against helping people move from Windows to Linux (e.g. people with university courses taught in C# or VB.NET can use Ubuntu instead of Windows)

But I doubt you care much about that. It's all about the holy war, isn't it?

If Mono is so great for Linux then why MS wants Gnome to use it? Voting for Mono is voting for MS domination in Linux. Stop kidding about performance and RAM usage. There's Qt. Who cares about few crappy games? Only idiots ignore politics, so by saying about holy war you're making yourself to look quite dumb. Politics affects nearly everything and that's why it's so important and can't be ignored.

[directhex]

What are you talking about?

Just saying, I can make up bullshit numbers with no basis in reality too. Doesn't make them good.

If Mono is so great for Linux then why MS wants Gnome to use it?

they don't. They really don't care.

Voting for Mono is voting for MS domination in Linux. Stop kidding about performance and RAM usage.

... Kidding?

There's Qt. Who cares about few crappy games?

Anyone who wants Linux to appeal to more than a tiny fringe.

Only idiots ignore politics, so by saying about holy war you're making yourself to look quite dumb. Politics affects nearly everything and that's why it's so important and can't be ignored.

Software is software. Playing politics doesn't change that.

[directhex]

And even 50 megz of libs is absolutely moron to run just some 2 or 3 programs who have alternatives allow to avoid bringing 50 megz of crap.

Fresh numbers, which demonstrate why it is so hard to take the anti-Mono crowd seriously when they argue about bloat. Installing languages on minimal Debian:

root@desire:/# [b][u]aptitude install ruby1.9.1[/u][/b]   
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libffi5{a} libruby1.9.1{a} libyaml-0-2{a} ruby1.9.1 
0 packages upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 4703 kB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 13.1 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
root@desire:/# [b][u]aptitude install python-minimal[/u][/b]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  file{a} libexpat1{a} libmagic1{a} mime-support{a} python{a} python-minimal python2.7{a} python2.7-minimal{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 8 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 5185 kB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 18.8 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
root@desire:/# [b][u]aptitude install mono-runtime[/u][/b]  
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  binfmt-support{a} cli-common{a} libmono-corlib4.0-cil{a} libmono-i18n-west4.0-cil{a} libmono-i18n4.0-cil{a} libmono-security4.0-cil{a} 
  libmono-system-configuration4.0-cil{a} libmono-system-security4.0-cil{a} libmono-system-xml4.0-cil{a} libmono-system4.0-cil{a} mono-4.0-gac{a} mono-gac{a} 
  mono-runtime 
0 packages upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 4383 kB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 11.5 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C
root@desire:/# [b][u]aptitude install openjdk-7-jre-headless[/u][/b]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  ca-certificates{a} ca-certificates-java{a} dbus{a} fontconfig-config{a} icedtea-7-jre-cacao{a} icedtea-7-jre-jamvm{a} java-common{a} krb5-locales{a} 
  libavahi-client3{a} libavahi-common-data{a} libavahi-common3{a} libcap2{a} libcups2{a} libdbus-1-3{a} libexpat1{a} libffi5{a} libfontconfig1{a} 
  libfreetype6{a} libglib2.0-0{a} libglib2.0-data{a} libgssapi-krb5-2{a} libjpeg8{a} libk5crypto3{a} libkeyutils1{a} libkrb5-3{a} libkrb5support0{a} 
  liblcms2-2{a} libnspr4{a} libnss3 libnss3-1d{a} libpcre3{a} libpcsclite1{a} libsystemd-login0{a} libxml2{a} openjdk-7-jre-headless openjdk-7-jre-lib{a} 
  openssl{a} sgml-base{a} shared-mime-info{a} ttf-dejavu-core{a} tzdata-java{a} ucf{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 43 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 51.5 MB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 137 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C

[Luke_Wolf]

2. C# is multi-platform, easy to use and still manages to give you a nice performance boost (compared to other languages like Java (slow, big thing) or C++ (too complex for GUI applications and if you don't know exactly what you are doing you get tons of memory leaks)). Also the documentation is pretty good.

While I'll admit I have never used C# before, I always am shocked at how people say that C++ is a difficult language. It is infact a very easy language to use, particularly in combination with the Qt toolkit. The only thing that makes C++ "difficult" is the fact that you're allowed to do memory management yourself, and if you don't want to do that there are garbage collectors out there or if you're using Qt the Parent-Child hierarchy takes care of it for you. Creating working GUIs is a relatively easy task with Qt and though I've yet to wrap my brain around it QML promises to make things even easier. In terms of documentation I again haven't really dealt with C# so I can't compare but the Qt documentation is excellent.

But what really annoys me is people claiming that the utter hell that is Java is somehow easier than the actually pleasant to program in combination of C++ with Qt. Simple fact is that it's not. Why? Because whereas the fundamental philosophy behind C++ is empowering the developer to do what they want to do, Java is designed from the same philisophical standpoint that drove me away from gnome to KDE shortly after I was originally introduced to linux, the idea that "we know best" that results in massive amounts of brain damage and outright laziness in terms of the design. Every time I'm forced to use it, it feels like having bashed my head against a brick wall for hours on end, leaving me longing for the solace of C++ & Qt.

[smitty3268]

While I'll admit I have never used C# before, I always am shocked at how people say that C++ is a difficult language. It is infact a very easy language to use, particularly in combination with the Qt toolkit. The only thing that makes C++ "difficult" is the fact that you're allowed to do memory management yourself, and if you don't want to do that there are garbage collectors out there or if you're using Qt the Parent-Child hierarchy takes care of it for you. Creating working GUIs is a relatively easy task with Qt and though I've yet to wrap my brain around it QML promises to make things even easier. In terms of documentation I again haven't really dealt with C# so I can't compare but the Qt documentation is excellent.

But what really annoys me is people claiming that the utter hell that is Java is somehow easier than the actually pleasant to program in combination of C++ with Qt. Simple fact is that it's not. Why? Because whereas the fundamental philosophy behind C++ is empowering the developer to do what they want to do, Java is designed from the same philisophical standpoint that drove me away from gnome to KDE shortly after I was originally introduced to linux, the idea that "we know best" that results in massive amounts of brain damage and outright laziness in terms of the design. Every time I'm forced to use it, it feels like having bashed my head against a brick wall for hours on end, leaving me longing for the solace of C++ & Qt.

Raw C++ is really sort of a different animal than Qt.

Qt adds a lot of extra functionality, great libraries, features, and documentation on top of C++, which makes it very nice to use.

I think when people talk about how difficult C++ is, they are generally just using the STL and bringing in random libraries to help them out.

[kraftman]

Just saying, I can make up bullshit numbers with no basis in reality too. Doesn't make them good.

I can make real numbers and real numbers show Amarok is much more efficient than Banshee.

they don't. They really don't care.

They do care. This thread is about this and there's Icaza that's (or was) MS employee.

... Kidding?

Yes, it seems Qt is much more efficient.

Anyone who wants Linux to appeal to more than a tiny fringe.

Bullshit. Rather anyone who wants it to be MS patent mess. We need real games and not such crap.

Software is software. Playing politics doesn't change that.

Software != software and politics affects this software. There's good and patent free software and there's bad software. Politics plays the most important role in nearly every aspect of your life, so don't be stupid and don't ignore it.

[kraftman]

Fresh numbers, which demonstrate why it is so hard to take the anti-Mono crowd seriously when they argue about bloat. Installing languages on minimal Debian:

You're mistake is you're comparing crap to even worse crap.

[directhex]

I can make real numbers and real numbers show Amarok is much more efficient than Banshee.

If you already have Qt. On a GTK+ desktop, which covers most Free Software desktops, pulling in Amarok (which will pull in Qt) pulls in FAR more stuff than pulling in Mono.

They do care. This thread is about this and there's Icaza that's (or was) MS employee.

Hackfest organizer asks local company for a room for hackfest, company agrees, HOLY SHITBALLS IT'S A CONSPIRACY

Plus, 1) de Icaza isn't organizing this, and 2) de Icaza isn't a Microsoft employee, and 3) de Icaza has never been a Microsoft employee. So yet again you come across as a conspiracy theorist loon.

Yes, it seems Qt is much more efficient.

According to your own personal criteria, which you just made up. The rest of us can use empirical numbers.

Bullshit. Rather anyone who wants it to be MS patent mess.

Nobody EVER has pointed out a SINGLE patent which Mono supposedly violates.

It's a bogeyman. It does not exist. It's an excuse to justify your holy war.

We need real games and not such crap.

Game Developers Choice Awards ? Best Debut, Best Downloadable Game
Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences ? Downloadable Title of the Year
Associated Press ? Top 10 Games of the Year
Entertainment Weekly ? Best Videogames of 2011
TIME ? Top 10 Games of 2011
USA Today ? Top 10 Games of 2011
NPR ? Ten Best Video Games of 2011
CNN ? Top 10 Video Games
Wired ? Top 20 Best Games of the Year
Paste Magazine ? Game of the Year
Boston Herald ? Best Game of 2011
A.V. Club ? 10 Best Games of 2011
ScienceFiction.com ? Top 10 Best Sci-Fi Video Games of 2011
Spike VGAs ? Best Downloadable Game, Best Original Score, Best Song
Inside Gaming Awards ? Best Downloadable Game, Best Indie Game, Best Original Score
IGN.com ? Best XBLA Game
VentureBeat ? Best Indie Games of 2011
Giant Bomb ? Best Music, Best Debut Game, Best Downloadable Game, Top 10
TotalBiscuit ? #1 Game of 2011
UGO ? Best Downloadable Game of the Year
Yahoo ? Best Downloadable Game
Game Audio Network Guild ? Best Soundtrack (Indie), Rookie of the Year
MSNBC ? 5 Great Games for the Art Lover
Game Informer ? Best RPG Innovation (The Narrator)
Eurogamer ? Games of 2011, Pick
Kill Screen ? Best Games of 2011, Pick
Official Xbox Magazine ? Best Music
GameSpot ? Song of the Year
Joystiq ? Top 10 of 2011
Team Xbox ? XBLA Game of the Year
Quartertothree ? Game of the Year
New York Videogame Critics Circle ? Best Music, Best Indie Game
NAVGTR ? Original Role-Playing Game, Best Performance in a Comedy
XBLA Fans ? Best Audio, Best Visuals
Xbox 360 Achievements ? Best Arcade Game
Zero Punctuation ? Top 5 of 2011
Electric Playground ? Best Downloadable Game
Rock Paper Shotgun ? The Games of Christmas
Boy?s Life Magazine ? Best Downloadable Game
IndieDB ? Worldly Award for Best Gameworld, Players Choice Top 10
Gamereactor UK ? Digital GOTY, Music of the Year
HorribleNight ? Best Downloadable Game, Best Soundtrack, Indie Developer of the Year
IndieGames.com ? Top 10 Indie Games of the Year
The Escapist ? 12 Games of Christmas
/v/GA Vidya Gaem Awards ? Eargasm Award, Stylish Aesthetics Award, Most Interesting New IP
Reaction Time ? Best Downloadable, Best Voice Acting, Best Soundtrack
TrendyGamers ? Downloadable GOTY
Gamezebo.com ? Best PC Game of 2011
XBLARatings ? XBLA Game of the Year
Press X or Die ? Game of the Year
Video Game Writers ? Best Indie Game
GameCola.net ? Most Innovative, Best Indie Game, Best Downloadable Game
Unwinnable.com ? Best Surprise Indie Darling
Ripten ? Best Downloadable Game, Biggest Surprise
Reviews on the Run ? Best Downloadable Game
Capsule Computers ? Best Downloadable Game
IndieGameReviewer.com ? Best Indie Game of the Year
GamingUnion.net ? Best New IP, Best Indie Game, Best Indie Developer
TIGSource ? Top Indie Game of 2011 (by Community Vote)
RPGamer.com ? RPG of the Year, Most Original Game, Best Downloadable Game
NeoGAF ? Digital Distribution Game of the Year
gamrFeed ? Best Downloadable Game, Best XBLA Game
The Game Effect ? Best Indie Game, Best Original IP, Best Musical Score, Best Story
RPGFan ? Best Downloadable RPG
TrueAchievements.com ? Best XBLA Game
The Thrifty Nerd ? Top 10 Games of 2011
Media Kick ? Readers Choice, Best Downloadable Game
Kotaku Australia ? Readers Choice, Indie Downloadable GOTY
Level Save ? Game of the Year Pick
Click Online ? Top 7 Pleasant Surprises
Piki Geek ? Top 10 Best of the Year
nJoystic ? Best Soundtrack
Press2Reset ? Best Soundtrack, Best Song
The Sixth Axis ? Best Downloadable Game
MiddleEast Gamers ? Best Indie Game
The Cross and the Controller ? Best Downloadable Game, Best Voice Acting
Kotaku ? Pick, Best Game Music of 2011
GamerCrash ? Best Soundtrack
Gamercast ? Top Downloadable Game
We Got This Covered ? Best XBLA/PSN Game
Bishop?s Gaming World ? Best Soundtrack, Top 10 Games of the Year
Infinite Ammo ? Top 10 Games of 2011
Rotorob ? Downloadable GOTY
Mash Those Buttons ? Best Arcade Game of 2011
Warp Zoned ? Best Music
RPG Site ? Indie RPG of the Year, Surprise of the Year, Best Soundtrack in a 2011 RPG
Tom?s Hardware Turkey ? Most Original Game, Best Narrative, Best Original Score

GET THIS SHIT OFF LINUX, WE NEED SUPERTUX 3 THE SUPERTUXENING INSTEAD!

Software != software and politics affects this software. There's good and patent free software

I say Qt violates 57.8 patents held by Halliburton and Umbrella Corp. Prove that it doesn't. Oh wait, you can't, because it's bullshit with no evidence: exactly the same body of evidence you've provided to attack Mono.

[directhex]

You're mistake is you're comparing crap to even worse crap.

But you're not attacking the other "crap" for being bloated, you're attacking Mono. The numbers show you're full of shit.

Plus, let's try some other numbers. I had hoped to avoid embarrassing you with this, but you did kinda ask for it.

root@dream:/# [b][u]aptitude install libqt4-core[/u][/b]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  dbus{a} libcap2{a} libdbus-1-3{a} libexpat1{a} libffi5{a} libglib2.0-0{a} 
  libglib2.0-data{a} libpcre3{a} libqt4-core libqt4-dbus{a} 
  libqt4-network{a} libqt4-script{a} libqt4-test{a} libqt4-xml{a} 
  libqtcore4{a} libsystemd-login0{a} libxml2{a} qdbus{a} sgml-base{a} 
  shared-mime-info{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 21 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 13.4 MB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 35.8 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C

Tell me more about your incredibly well-researched views on bloat.

edit: in the interest of total transparency, the above package is not the smallest Qt install on Debian. It was in older versions of Qt, but was further minimized in Qt 4.4. Here is the new smallest Qt install possible, with no GUI support at all, just support for the core Qt object model stuff in command line apps:

root@dream:/# [b][u]aptitude install libqtcore4[/u][/b]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libffi5{a} libglib2.0-0{a} libglib2.0-data{a} libpcre3{a} libqtcore4 
  libxml2{a} sgml-base{a} shared-mime-info{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 9 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 10.2 MB of archives. [b][u]After unpacking 27.6 MB will be used[/u][/b].
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C