Microsoft Windows 8: Mostly A Crap Wreck

[Windywoo]

Why the hell are my posts taking up such huge space? Is it because the default layout shows my own posts with lots of space?

*EDIT* this one didn't.

[Hamish Wilson]

True, that and dosBox are often better at old games then windows it self. Problem with source ports of Q3 is that they do not have punk buster so it's cribbed for multilayer, I do however play Quake Live natively.

Well, what distro are you running? I bet I could help you get sound working natively if you would like (better PM me if you are interested rather than posting here though).

As to some of the other comments, the only times I have had any real issues was when having to switch graphics hardware was when using binary drivers, which I admit do not flow the best on Linux when compared to Windows. I do not necessarily consider this to be a disadvantage, however. Using the free drivers I have been able to switch fairly seamlessly between my onboard Nvidia and my Radeon (assuming I do not have a hardest Xorg.conf file, but if someone goes to the trouble to set one up in the first place they should know how it works). This in the end is the best way of doing drivers for Linux, and we just need the free graphics infrastructure to keep improving. When it does, we may even get a leg up on Windows as it will simply be install and enjoy in most cases.

What sold me on Linux as a technical platform rather than a moral or philosophical one was when I had the realization that when I had problems, there usually was a fairly simply fix. On Windows (admittedly XP, but anyway...) I often found that you would hit brick-walls. So I would not claim either is trouble free - but Linux has in general given me more freedom to solve them.

[fuzz]

What sold me on Linux as a technical platform rather than a moral or philosophical one was when I had the realization that when I had problems, there usually was a fairly simply fix. On Windows (admittedly XP, but anyway...) I often found that you would hit brick-walls. So I would not claim either is trouble free - but Linux has in general given me more freedom to solve them.

I usually find that when searching for a solution to a problem on Windows, you have to trudge through endless heaps and piles of stupidity where people shout out the most ridiculous things, only to run into some "official" Microsoft page that describes your problem and treats you like one of the previously mentioned idiots in the process.

To be fair, Ubuntu can be the same way, especially on their forums (though it's nice to actually have a central place to complain/discuss/rage/etc) . . . but we do have the general mentality of "yes, shit breaks, here's how to fix it" here in Linux, whereas Windows is supposedly "perfect."

[FutureSuture]

Since you guys are all so knowledgeable...

[Zan Lynx]

Michael, Windows is an ilusion. Reviews about the system should be made 3-4 months after instalation, where the OS has had time to kill itself.
Really, in every MS system, performance is great... till the time comes where the system is so busted, that you have to do a format and reinstall.

Bear that in mind, windows has an "expiration date", linux doesnt.

cheers.

What puts a Windows system into that state is the installation of stupid programs. I've helped several people restore the performance of their Windows XP, Vista, 7 systems without reinstalling the OS. Remove every lame IM program and replace it with Pidgin. Use ESET antivirus instead of Norton or whatever other crap they've got. Make sure there is only ONE AV installed. And check the list of startup programs and remove every single one of the "quick start" programs.

My personal Windows 7 desktop system has had the same installation on it since early 2010. There is no expiration date.

[oliver]

I find the Windows hate expressed here to be more along the lines of prejudice rather than well informed opinions. If Windows were as awful as you claim there would be a lot more Linux users right? Simply because everybody would be driven mad by the poor experience delivered by PC manufacturers and Microsoft.

You really think, that mom'n'pop, 13 year old sara first laptop or .. well you catch my thrift, really know what they are buying and would switch too? Let's ignore all the big offices where the OS is forced uppon you by ICT/Management. Let's just talk home users. They buy a "computer" (not a pc/mac) something that they can get online with. "Oh this apple computer is much more expensive then this acer computer." And that's as far as their grasp of computing goes. They don't know browsers, let a lone operating systems. Also even if knew that most of their computing griefs was related to Windows, they wouldn't even know what to switch too. Something as Linux or Ubuntu, is completely unknown to them. Their routers work as magical wireless boxes etc. I think the fact that people DO know that there is apple, android and windows phone is one of the reasons windows phone only has 0.41% market share? Not because it's so new etc, but because people don't "want that same shit" on their phone? So yes, people have been driven mad by both PC manufactures, driver makers and Microsoft. But when their virus infested, dog slow machines are annoying them, they just buy a new one and the cycle repeats. True, there's some more witty peopel out there, but I only coverd 80% of the demographic there.

Even when Microsoft released Vista the number of Mac and Linux users did not rise significantly. If I were to list my Linux issues and Windows issues side by side the Linux list would be longer despite my having worked on more Windows PCs. I don't think this is the place for a full list but here is a few of the worst.

But people did drove off in bunches, because it was so bad. No they didn't go to Linux. Some went to macs, but most went to ... XP. Yes, a lot of PC manufactures pre-installed XP instead of vista, due to demand from users. Now Manufactures going against Microsofts wishes. Yes MS wants everybody to go to their latest offering as quickly as possible. So for HP, Dell etc to offer XP when MS wants to push vista is pretty big.

Linux crashed a router. Yes, by enabling IPv6 by default my old router crashed because it didn't support IPv6. How in hell can Linux have a reputation for stability with crap like this?

Ok now your digging yourself in quite deeply. First off, your talking about linux the kernel? Or linux as a platform, which usually totally gets raped by manufactures. Long story short (I could put a huge rant here, really) The kernel usually isn't the problem. Manufactures just slap something together, sometimes using binary blobs (more on that on your video bit) and when it works in their labs, they'll ship. Usually not taking into consideration the amount of ram needed for their setups, the amount of flash etc etc. They try to cut as much of the costs as possible, and like in this case with disastrous outcome. Most of the time, installing one of the best 'distro's for accesspoints out there, openwrt fixes nearly all problems. Mostly because they know better the limitations of the system based on the amount of ram or trying to replace binary blobs with proper opensource drivers. To summarize, linux isn't the problem here, but manufactures who don't really know what they are doing, but refuse to standarize on openwrt with their own webskin.

P.s. you do know it was running linux, not vmworkss

Installing a new graphics card broke X windows. I took out a Geforce and put in a Radeon and X would no longer boot. Safe mode and rebuilding the xconf did not help. Reinstalled Linux. Video not accelerated by default in the default Ubuntu media player despite the nvidia drivers being installed. I had to install a new media player from the repository and manually tell it to accelerate to get smooth playback.

Chances are you where using a binary blob? Yeah, though this could happen on any os, but problem here is most if not all the time, the binary blob. They have funny ways of installing their drivers if not fully removed, can cause trouble no matter what you put in after that. Also, I don't find this a 'general consumer issue' at all. Probably not the 80% demographic, maybe 75% demographic. Users generally don't swap their video card. They buy laptops! or normal tower "computers".

I've had my share of bluescreens in my time but because Windows is more widely used it is easier to find a fix. Trawling through Ubuntu forums through threads for one version or the next provides fewer solutions in a longer period of time.

You would think this be true, with more windows users then linux users, ignoring the cooperate and mom'n'pop/13 year olds etc. Thing is, it's simply not true. Most of the windows problems people also find them and often recommend you to try to reboot, try X, try Y and ... reinstall. Reinstalling btw is often the solution to many many windows problems (the 75% demographic btw, would just buy a new one. "Oh it no longer works right, time to buy a new one, it was "old" anyway".).

But on the topic of Windows 8 this "overview" sounds like someone with little skill at adapting to new ways of doing things. I have been testing the Consumer Preview now since it came out and I think there has only been one thing I haven't found an easy fix for in this new build. Basically ignore the Metro bit if you want to multitask. The desktop is there and it works pretty much as it did in Windows 7, you just have to make the desktop and the taskbar do the job of the Start menu. The one thing I couldn't find a fix for was run program. Control Panel and all those features that were on the Start menu are still in Windows 8.

I do hope they find a better way of integrating older apps into the new Metro Start. Old programs all showed up as mini tiles and they would be better off with a tile for their program group, not every single shortcut in that program group.

So basically it's quite easy to avoid Metro if you don't like it, but it's there for those who may find its simplicity useful.

[/QUOTE]
May be, may be not. Either-way, the 80% demographic (overuse, I know) will probably whine and complain how annoying their new computer is and HP/Dell will offer 7 as an option to new models.

Michael, Windows is an ilusion. Reviews about the system should be made 3-4 months after instalation, where the OS has had time to kill itself.
Really, in every MS system, performance is great... till the time comes where the system is so busted, that you have to do a format and reinstall.

Bear that in mind, windows has an "expiration date", linux doesnt.

cheers.

Someone after you said this wasn't true or he could fix up any 'crufted old setup'. But everybody really knows, that windows gets 'slow' after a year or two and reinstall is required.

He has a point, clearing out the startup/run sections, uninstalling crapware helps a lot. But there always creeps in some bloat that won't get uninstalled. One of the worst offenders is office. Notice how a freshly installed PC starts in a certain amount of time. After installing office, the PC would take longer to start and things where slightly slower. Yet startup, run etc everything remained the same. DLL's bloating the memory/preload? Who knows. But it's a fact. most people btw, don't reinstall, after 1-2 years, they just buy a new one.

[russofris]

Looking at the other comments, I believe that there is a misconception.

Linux offers a wider range of hardware support than windows. In many cases, drivers in the linux kernel meet or exceed their windows counterparts in terms of performance and features.

Of the graphics cards that vendors support on windows, drivers are typically faster and more full-featured under windows than the same card under linux.

Graphics card drivers for current hardware generations is one of the half-dozen reasons that windows is still relevant. With SBS going to the cloud, standardized productivity file-formats gaining traction, ReactOS filling the legacy gap, and linux graphics gaining ground, it's a countdown to oblivion for Windows.

MS will likely circle its wagons and continue to exist as an IP and litigation company for a brief time.

Looking forward to the fireworks,
F

[Kano]

Just forgot one thing, but you mentioned reinstall so often that i of course remembered it You don't need to reinstall W8 because it has got 2 modes to reset. One mode is to reset the system, but keeps user data and all metro apps will be still available, the other mode is to do something like a factory reset that removes all user data if you want to sell the system. Not fully sure if it overwrites the freespace then, did not try those features.

But you can try other funny things as well: I did a W8 install onto iscsi without using w server like this: I used ipxe sanhook, then exit the boot and installed from usb key to iscsitarget. After a few resets it worked - well maybe i should mention that this kind of install took about 2h so it was more like a proof of concept. You can try the same with W7 btw, but W8 is free for testing anyway, so why don't use it for this. I tested of course iscsi with Kanotix as well, there i could boot other systems with the same iscsi install as well, that was not possible with W8. But basically it is very interesting that it worked without any modification of the install media, not that bad. Boot via intel pxe -> ipxe undionly chainload -> ipxe sanboot.

[Windywoo]

You really think, that mom'n'pop, 13 year old sara first laptop or .. well you catch my thrift, really know what they are buying and would switch too? Let's ignore all the big offices where the OS is forced uppon you by ICT/Management. Let's just talk home users. They buy a "computer" (not a pc/mac) something that they can get online with. "Oh this apple computer is much more expensive then this acer computer." And that's as far as their grasp of computing goes. They don't know browsers, let a lone operating systems. Also even if knew that most of their computing griefs was related to Windows, they wouldn't even know what to switch too. Something as Linux or Ubuntu, is completely unknown to them. Their routers work as magical wireless boxes etc. I think the fact that people DO know that there is apple, android and windows phone is one of the reasons windows phone only has 0.41% market share? Not because it's so new etc, but because people don't "want that same shit" on their phone? So yes, people have been driven mad by both PC manufactures, driver makers and Microsoft. But when their virus infested, dog slow machines are annoying them, they just buy a new one and the cycle repeats. True, there's some more witty peopel out there, but I only coverd 80% of the demographic there.


But people did drove off in bunches, because it was so bad. No they didn't go to Linux. Some went to macs, but most went to ... XP. Yes, a lot of PC manufactures pre-installed XP instead of vista, due to demand from users. Now Manufactures going against Microsofts wishes. Yes MS wants everybody to go to their latest offering as quickly as possible. So for HP, Dell etc to offer XP when MS wants to push vista is pretty big.


Ok now your digging yourself in quite deeply. First off, your talking about linux the kernel? Or linux as a platform, which usually totally gets raped by manufactures. Long story short (I could put a huge rant here, really) The kernel usually isn't the problem. Manufactures just slap something together, sometimes using binary blobs (more on that on your video bit) and when it works in their labs, they'll ship. Usually not taking into consideration the amount of ram needed for their setups, the amount of flash etc etc. They try to cut as much of the costs as possible, and like in this case with disastrous outcome. Most of the time, installing one of the best 'distro's for accesspoints out there, openwrt fixes nearly all problems. Mostly because they know better the limitations of the system based on the amount of ram or trying to replace binary blobs with proper opensource drivers. To summarize, linux isn't the problem here, but manufactures who don't really know what they are doing, but refuse to standarize on openwrt with their own webskin.

P.s. you do know it was running linux, not vmworkss


Chances are you where using a binary blob? Yeah, though this could happen on any os, but problem here is most if not all the time, the binary blob. They have funny ways of installing their drivers if not fully removed, can cause trouble no matter what you put in after that. Also, I don't find this a 'general consumer issue' at all. Probably not the 80% demographic, maybe 75% demographic. Users generally don't swap their video card. They buy laptops! or normal tower "computers".


You would think this be true, with more windows users then linux users, ignoring the cooperate and mom'n'pop/13 year olds etc. Thing is, it's simply not true. Most of the windows problems people also find them and often recommend you to try to reboot, try X, try Y and ... reinstall. Reinstalling btw is often the solution to many many windows problems (the 75% demographic btw, would just buy a new one. "Oh it no longer works right, time to buy a new one, it was "old" anyway".).

May be, may be not. Either-way, the 80% demographic (overuse, I know) will probably whine and complain how annoying their new computer is and HP/Dell will offer 7 as an option to new models.


Someone after you said this wasn't true or he could fix up any 'crufted old setup'. But everybody really knows, that windows gets 'slow' after a year or two and reinstall is required.

He has a point, clearing out the startup/run sections, uninstalling crapware helps a lot. But there always creeps in some bloat that won't get uninstalled. One of the worst offenders is office. Notice how a freshly installed PC starts in a certain amount of time. After installing office, the PC would take longer to start and things where slightly slower. Yet startup, run etc everything remained the same. DLL's bloating the memory/preload? Who knows. But it's a fact. most people btw, don't reinstall, after 1-2 years, they just buy a new one.[/QUOTE]

Worse than any Mac fanboi. Horrible.

The point was made in the article or maybe in these comments that Windows 8 was going to destroy Microsoft and drive people to alternatives. My point was that Microsoft already had one "failure" and Linux failed to benefit. The reasons why are irrelevant. It simply means that this time around it's unlikely to be much different.

As it happens you have completely misunderstood what I was talking about with the router. The router was running Linux but that wasn't what crashed it. It was something to do with IPv6 being enabled at kernel level, which meant I couldn't turn it off. Don't talk about digging myself deeper when the point goes over your head.

Maybe the binary blob was a problem, I can't remember if I installed the binary or not, but still, Windows has NEVER given me that problem. Changing a graphics card will not usually give a BSOD, since it has a fallback standard VGA driver. For whatever reason, Linux didn't have the same behaviour and the repair tools offered didn't do the job.

I have "fixed" Windows machines that were over 6 or 7 years old simply with msconfig. Most users will not know about the smaller antivirus packages either. A defrag and a run of ccleaner works wonders too. Linux machines don't have the same mess of crapware to deal with, nor the same number of idiot users to do things the way they weren't supposed to. Linux hasn't really faced the same pounding on the desktop that Windows has, I wouldn't be too smug over Windows "slowing down". In fact I have done upgrades in Linux that forced a reinstall because they messed up so badly. Granted that's maybe just Ubuntu's fault, but Ubuntu is meant to be the "easy" Linux.

Just because I came and posted criticisms of Linux you seem to be treating me as some sort of Windows lover. I have been trying Linux since before Ubuntu finally made one LiveCD to makes things simpler, and I've always been waiting for the day I could just install it for my friends and leave them to it. That day just hasn't come.

[Kano]

It is certainly possible to break Linux systems with upgrades. I know that very well from the time i supported sid. In most cases you can fix those issues, the most generic way of "fixing" d-u problems is repeating

apt-get dist-upgrade
dpkg-configure -a
apt-get install -f

until you don't get any error. thats the basic variant, however when a dist-upgrade wants to remove core packages then something really bad is going on and it should be avoided to try at all. In theory it is possible to reinstall removed packages but thats not always that simple. If just minor packages have been removed, like gimp was removed because only gimp-data was there for the used arch you can install gimp when both packages are available. As i do not use Ubuntu - i only use some interesting parts like kernel (with some mods) or mainline builds, linux-firmware packages. Sometimes i install U to test my fglrx script, but i dont keep that install.

You are definitely right that you can not see Linux as a Win replacement for the 08/15 user. If a possible Linux user just surfs the web and was attacked by a virus/trojan then this one might switch. Usually you can not convert pro-gamers, thats more or less impossible, basically you can suggest using live systems for Internet usage but thats all. For ppl which specific win app needs it can be enough to provide a win vm - as long as those apps dont need 3d support. Sometimes wine is already enough - wine improved a lot, you can even run Office 2007 without problems. Of course there are much more Linux users out there (or dual boot users) than years ago, Linux marketing helped there. But of couse there will be always ppl who have got the wrong ideas what to expect from the system and are disappointed then.

I do not think that the new W8 UI will lead more Linux users. Some might just install W7 and praise the old times but those do not switch to Linux. I mainly test the technical aspects, learn a few new shortcuts and want to be prepared. It is always good to have deeper knowledge of a system, it does not matter if it is called Linux or Win, just that Win becomes much sooner boring as you can not modify/tune it the same way as Linux. Of course for unskilled users every system looks complicated thats not the same as usual...