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Thread: OpenBSD 5.1 Released

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    It says it won't overcommit, but it also says it will kill a process under special conditions. I think this is what you meant.
    Doesn't overcommit ALL or FREE memory?
    They could also say it doesn't overcommit universe.


    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    As far as I know Linux is fully modular when comes to drivers. What I said is Arch Linux probably has compiled some drivers in. I don't know if OpenBSD would be smaller, but while unmodified Linux can run on embedded systems it shows it's not bloated. Size of the kernel is just one thing and there are others that matters also - cost of operations. Bloated kernel can't be fast and Linux is very fast. Its package is big, because it contains a lot of drivers, features and file systems, but you normally use just few percent of this. When comes to user land I think Arch Linux is example of distribution that's not more bloated than OpenBSD. You start with a kernel and few tools. Distributions like Ubuntu seems to be bloated for some people, but they have different purpose.
    Userland is definitely more bloated: https://gist.github.com/1091803, https://gist.github.com/665971

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBit View Post
    Ok I didn't know Arch Linux doesn't have fully modular kernel. OpenBSD supports modules. OpenBSD kernel would still be smaller than Linux kernel, both without drivers ...
    Biggest bloat on Linux is it's userland.
    If you use Arch, then you have no idea at all how it works (or pacman). Also you cannot rule Linux distributions by looking at how only one distribution do things.

    1. Arch packages may look bigger because they include development files which are usually not included by default on other distributions.

    2. Also related to #1, Arch has a policy of making things simple, and one of them is splitting packages only when needed and keeping the splitting count as low as possible (no 5-6 packages made from a single source rpm/deb package here, lol)

    3. Linux userland bloated. Let me see... Only one default shell "Bash", some (not repeated) commands from coreutils, textutils, sudo, 1 boot loader (grub/grub2/syslinux), usually one desktop environment. I don't see bloatware like you said. And I hope you don't count the desktops cause they bring the same bloatware no matter which NIX system they run on.

    4. If your problem is the dependency bloatware some distribution package managers have, then fix it by using Gentoo and define your own flags.

    As a related note, here is a link that you can look to see what components make a basic Linux Userland and decide for yourself if there is bloat or not. The project is Linux From Scratch.
    Last edited by darkcoder; 05-05-2012 at 10:06 AM. Reason: typos

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkcoder View Post
    If you use Arch, then you have no idea at all how it works (or pacman). Also you cannot rule Linux distributions by looking at how only one distribution do things.

    1. Arch packages may look bigger because they include development files which are usually not included by default on other distributions.

    2. Also related to #1, Arch has a policy of making things simple, and one of them is splitting packages only when needed and keeping the splitting count as low as possible (no 5-6 packages made from a single source rpm/deb package here, lol)

    3. Linux userland bloated. Let me see... Only one default shell "Bash", some (not repeated) commands from coreutils, textutils, sudo, 1 boot loader (grub/grub2/syslinux), usually one desktop environment. I don't see bloatware like you said. And I hope you don't count the desktops cause they bring the same bloatware no matter which NIX system they run on.

    4. If your problem is the dependency bloatware some distribution package managers have, then fix it by using Gentoo and define your own flags.

    As a related note, here is a link that you can look to see what components make a basic Linux Userland and decide for yourself if there is bloat or not. The project is Linux From Scratch.
    Most other distributions are worse.

    1. I didn't look size of packages.

    2. I like that.

    3. Did you look at https://gist.github.com/1091803 and https://gist.github.com/665971 ?

    4. I don't like Gentoo. Too much work with LFS.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBit View Post
    Doesn't overcommit ALL or FREE memory?
    They could also say it doesn't overcommit universe.
    It sounds obvious to me it doesn't overcommit available memory - otherwise this statement will be false, don't you think?

    Userland is definitely more bloated: https://gist.github.com/1091803, https://gist.github.com/665971
    It can be more feature rich which isn't equal to being bloated. There are for sure differences between GNU's cat, echo and not GNU equivalents. Here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_(Unix)
    Last edited by kraftman; 05-05-2012 at 10:43 AM.

  5. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBit View Post
    Most other distributions are worse.

    1. I didn't look size of packages.

    2. I like that.

    3. Did you look at https://gist.github.com/1091803 and https://gist.github.com/665971 ?

    4. I don't like Gentoo. Too much work with LFS.
    I think you shouldn't judge something just because you don't like it. Your likeness or hatred towards something has no impact on reality. That's why Gentoo remains simple, not bloated distribution.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    It sounds obvious to me it doesn't overcommit available memory - otherwise this statement will be false, don't you think?
    No, I don't think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    It can be more feature rich which isn't equal to being bloated. There are for sure differences between GNU's cat, echo and not GNU equivalents.
    Non-standard functions in utilities are bloat, since portable scripts should not depend on them. Why two parameters for same thing like "-A" and "--show-all"?
    cat utility is not IDE.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    I think you shouldn't judge something just because you don't like it. Your likeness or hatred towards something has no impact on reality. That's why Gentoo remains simple, not bloated distribution.
    My likeness or hatred towards something comes from reality.
    Portage is written in Python, this makes it bloated and less reliable (if something is wrong with Python). Also compiling X11 or Firefox ... is not really interesting.

  8. #78
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    Pointing at GNU or the BSDs to say that linux userland is bloated is, well, wrong target. It means that those GNU/BSD utils are.

    Everyone's entirely free to use busybox, toybox, plan9 utils, or asmutils, and I bet you can find a distro that defaults to each of those.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    Pointing at GNU or the BSDs to say that linux userland is bloated is, well, wrong target. It means that those GNU/BSD utils are.

    Everyone's entirely free to use busybox, toybox, plan9 utils, or asmutils, and I bet you can find a distro that defaults to each of those.
    I said userland, because glibc is also bloated not just utils.
    I would be very interested to see Linux distribution without GNU which would be usable as desktop os (not only for firewalls ...).
    Last edited by LightBit; 05-05-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    I think he meant OpenBSD ships with much older versions.
    They're not *much* old and he's doing an apples to oranges comparison. Doesn't count.

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