GIMP 2.10 To Be Fully Ported To GEGL Core

[FishB8]

@FishB8: Thanks for the comment and correction re 32 bit color depth in Gimp.

Monitor calibration: I have ArgyllCMS and dispcalGUI installed on my Linux system. I like them, but they don't allow me to upload the profiles into my NEC screen. I need to see how much that would impact actual results. In theory, ArgyllCMS works in 8 bit color depth, and any profile adjustment will limit that even further. My screen and matched colorimeter use 14 bit color depth. The NEC screen is a wide gamut screen with nearly AdobeRGB color space. In the reds its even significantly wider than AdobeRGB, so I can work comfortably in a ProColor space and see colors most screens won't be able to produce. For my type of photography - landscapes/cityscapes with lots of desert landscapes - the red channel is the one to pay attention to.
I need to experiment with ArgyllCMS and see how it works, but, as stated above, it may be sub-optimal.

Good question. I've never owned a wide gamut screen, so I've never looked into it. I think that before you even start playing with ArgyllCMS that there may be limitations in X11. I have no idea how X11 deals with that. (might also be something to bring up to the wayland devs) I would strongly advise contacting the the ArgyllCMS devs directly. If ArgyllCMS does not support that yet, it may simply be a matter of asking. Although, usually in situations like that, the biggest limitation is when the developers don't have access to high end equipment like that themselves.

Photoshop is also a generic editor, yet it provides ample support for a professional photo editing workflow. I downloaded darktable but haven't given it a real workout. It mimics Lightroom, but it looks like I would need to spend some time with darkroom to get used to it. Right now I use Capture NX2 plus the Nik filters for RAW conversion and most processing. I seldom need to edit in PS. Capture NX2 has its ups (ease of use and support for camera profiles) and downs (undocumented features=bugs), and I had my grievances with it that made me consider Lightroom as the alternative (now that LR is on par with Capture NX2 with regard to image sharpness and color rendition). Changing what I'm using now means a lot of learning, which I would go through if the results are as good as what I got now. In fact, even though I used Capture NX2 for many years, I just recently discovered the best combination of profile, saturation, and sharpening settings that give me the results I was looking for. Adopting these adjustments to another workflow won't be easy.
Finally, lens distortion, vignetting, and CA correction require lens specific data that I doubt will be available in Gimp, darktable or any non-pro (commercial) application.

Filters: I hate to trash my Nik filters - they are really good. The Nik filters work in both Capture NX2 and Photoshop, and i believe also in Lightroom. I don't use them often, but when I do, they make all the difference.

There is yet another issue: If I can't use/run Capture NX2 all my RAW file edits will be lost forever, unless I convert the files. This would be a major project, much more so since Capture NX2 has some bug with regard to Nik filters that prevent some of the filters being applied when batch processing.

I know that Darktable can do lens distortion, vignetting, and chromatic aberrations, (using info in the raw file, and using lens specific data) so you might want to look into seeing if that might fit into your workflow. But I doubt that Gimp or Darktable will ever work with Nik filters since I really doubt that either project will try to implement a clone of Photoshop or NX2 plugin APIs. (And I doubt Nik will have any motivation to port either).

Trying to get professional functionality can take a while. Developers need more than just a feature request in their bug tracker, they need colaboration and constant feedback and testing. And occasionally they need equipment too. If you are willing to get your hands dirty, and find a developer who is willing to collaborate, you can eventually get the professional functionality you are looking for. I would recommend you read a blog entry by David Revoy. He is an digital paint artist using Linux based software who worked for 3 years with the Krita developers. Their software was almost totally unusable to him, but over the last 3 years he worked with the developers to get the functionality he needed, and with the latest version of Krita released a couple weeks ago, it has advanced to the point where is has become his primary tool. It's an interesting read: http://www.davidrevoy.com/index.php?...-2-4-very-soon

[powerhouse]

@FishB8: Wow, thanks for your detailed reply.

ArgyllCMS: That's a good idea to contact the developers. I would be more than happy to test, though I will have less time at hand in the near future.
I never thought about X11 limitations. Well, the way it goes in my case with the NEC screen, the NEC calibration software (under Windows) communicates directly with the screen via the DVI port, and uploads the profile into the screen. It also produces a profile for the graphics card, which is flat (no adjustments). This "hardware" calibration is specific to these NEC screens and most other displays don't support it (I think EIZO has something similar).
I assume that ArgyllCMS handles calibration much the way most Windows-based calibration software works, in that it manipulates the color LUT (lookup table) of the graphics card. Most graphics cards are 8 bit (they call it 24-bit True Color), so manipulating its color LUT leaves one with less than 8 bit color depth, as any adjustment reduces the remaining number of possible values. I just checked and saw that some graphics adapters support "deep color", which is 30 bit or more. Windows 7 supports up to 48 bit, whereas Gnome supports 8 bit per channel plus transparency, which doesn't add color depth.

Darktable: thanks for the update. I saw it yesterday too. I also gave it a try - it looks promising, though opening one of my photos had me almost give up - the colors were strange and resembled the look of dcraw converted RAW files 8 years ago. But I must admit that I ran it on a live Linux Mint desktop where I didn't calibrate or adjust anything, and I truly hope to be able to fix that in a permanent installation. Darktable has really some interesting features.

Professional functionality: I started taking photography more serious when I got my first DSLR 8 years ago. Back then I was a total beginner in digital photography and photo editing. At first I tried very hard to find anything workable under Linux, before I even looked at Windows software. I found nothing that even remotely allowed me to get decent quality pictures. It literally forced me to switch back to Windows (yes, back then I was using Linux exclusively at home). 8 years roll forward: I am using now professional tools and have learned a lot and as a result my demands are MUCH higher now. No more snapshot quality. Nice isn't good enough. Darktable is showing some light on an otherwise pretty dark horizon. I had written to the Gimp guys back in 2004 about the 8-bit limit, only to hear that more than 8 bit color depth was not on their roadmap.

Today DSLRs are very common, and the quality of P&S has improved tremendously. Many people I know are processing their photos to get the best out of them - all on Windows or Mac.

Sorry for my rumbling, I just can't get over it that there has been so little progress under Linux with regard to photo editing.

[powerhouse]

...Developers need more than just a feature request in their bug tracker, they need colaboration and constant feedback and testing. And occasionally they need equipment too. If you are willing to get your hands dirty, and find a developer who is willing to collaborate, you can eventually get the professional functionality you are looking for. I would recommend you read a blog entry by David Revoy. He is an digital paint artist using Linux based software who worked for 3 years with the Krita developers. Their software was almost totally unusable to him, but over the last 3 years he worked with the developers to get the functionality he needed, and with the latest version of Krita released a couple weeks ago, it has advanced to the point where is has become his primary tool. It's an interesting read: http://www.davidrevoy.com/index.php?...-2-4-very-soon

I am willing to do testing and provide feedback. My new PC should be powerful enough to run development stuff in a VM, to prevent breaking things. I will read David's blog.

[FishB8]

@FishB8: Wow, thanks for your detailed reply.

ArgyllCMS: That's a good idea to contact the developers. I would be more than happy to test, though I will have less time at hand in the near future.
I never thought about X11 limitations. Well, the way it goes in my case with the NEC screen, the NEC calibration software (under Windows) communicates directly with the screen via the DVI port, and uploads the profile into the screen. It also produces a profile for the graphics card, which is flat (no adjustments). This "hardware" calibration is specific to these NEC screens and most other displays don't support it (I think EIZO has something similar).
I assume that ArgyllCMS handles calibration much the way most Windows-based calibration software works, in that it manipulates the color LUT (lookup table) of the graphics card. Most graphics cards are 8 bit (they call it 24-bit True Color), so manipulating its color LUT leaves one with less than 8 bit color depth, as any adjustment reduces the remaining number of possible values. I just checked and saw that some graphics adapters support "deep color", which is 30 bit or more. Windows 7 supports up to 48 bit, whereas Gnome supports 8 bit per channel plus transparency, which doesn't add color depth.

This made me curious so I did some looking around. From the professional NEC monitors I looked at, the color space itself is still 8 bit, it's simply the look up tables that had the 14 bit range. That's somewhat less of a hurdle provided there is a means under Linux to load the LUT over a DVI connection.

The NECs do support 30bit color if you use a Display Port connection. And Nvidia's Linux drivers support 30 bit colors for the Quadro series. I have a Quadro card with Display Port, but no 30 bit capable screen. I'm tempted to get one now, since they're only about $500. Even without fancy color features, the reviews say the color is fantastic.

I'm not sure how well it would work though, since support in the driver may be pointless if it also requires the software to do explicitily utilize it. In that case, any graphics program is totally at the mercy of the toolkit and graphics libraries being used to do the actual drawing on screen.

[powerhouse]

@FishB8: I got the NEC LCD2690WUXi2 which has been discontinued and replaced by the PA271W. In the US, you can get the PA271W-BK-SV, with SV standing for Spectraview II. Spectraview is the software plus custom colorimeter to calibrate the screen - it's sold as a bundle which will lighten your purse by roughly $2000. I'm glad I invested in a good screen, but it IS an investment. There are some other, less expensive wide gamut screens available, I think Dell and even Asus has some good offers. They usually don't allow "hardware" calibration (i.e. upload of the profile into the screen LUT).

Of course, all the display goodness I have is only really available under Windows to me. Spectraview doesn't run on Linux (though they do have a Linux version which they sell only to large customers - I guess the support costs under Linux scare them away from individual / small business users).

By the way, I really believe that proper calibration is essential to consistent results, else you are "driving with your eyes closed". With calibration I mean colorimeter / spectrophotometer calibration. Check with ArgyllCMS what's supported, if you want to use it under Linux. I think this is more important than a wide gamut display, though the latter is nice to have.

Funny you mention the Quadro series - I had just decided to dump the GTX 550 Ti (the reviews I saw were discouraging) as well as the Radeon 6870 for a simple PNY Quadro 600. It got excellent reviews from graphics pros.

The downside of all this is that you can also see some shortcomings of the software much easier, for example color rendition, banding, etc. Of course you would have to have something to compare with - e.g. open the same photo using the same hardware and calibration in Lightroom or Photoshop for example. Which I think I will do once I get my new PC (connect both PCs to the same screen and switch between them).

[johnc]

@Hirager: I'm not in a position to pay for development. However, if Gimp (or whatever software) gives me the right tools, I would pay for the software or donate some money (a few hundred bucks).

We are in a competitive environment. To me, Linux wins hands down on the OS side. BUT, the lack of support for professional photo editing software is a big bummer (to me). Some features are essential - like more than 8-bit color depth - not supporting them is a no-go.

I would be willing to compromise on some features, but not on image quality and speed (workflow). Even with commercial applications (all of which run on Windows or Mac, not on Linux) it's not that easy to get things right.

There have been several attempts to produce pro-level photo editing applications natively under Linux, for example Lightzone. Each one I tried had its good things, but in the end they didn't fill my requirements or didn't produce the quality I was after.

I spent enough money on photo gear and PC hardware and wouldn't mind paying the price for commercial software on Linux. If Adobe released Photoshop and Lightroom (or even only the latter) on Linux, I'd be more than happy to buy it. If Gimp (or any other application) provides the essentials plus many of the goodies found in Lightroom/PS, I would be equally happy. But looking at my experiences with open-source or Linux-based photo editing software, I'm sorry to say that I have almost given up. I really wish I would be taught otherwise.

You have to use the right tool for the right job.

Sometimes that means using Windows or Mac.

Is there a reason why those options are off the table?

[FishB8]

By the way, I really believe that proper calibration is essential to consistent results, else you are "driving with your eyes closed". With calibration I mean colorimeter / spectrophotometer calibration. Check with ArgyllCMS what's supported, if you want to use it under Linux. I think this is more important than a wide gamut display, though the latter is nice to have.

Well. according to the dispcalgui documentation the following hardware is supported:

Colorimeters

X-Rite ColorMunki Create (same as i1 Display 2)
X-Rite DTP92
X-Rite DTP94
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth/Pantone Huey
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth i1 Display 1
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth i1 Display 2/LT
X-Rite i1 Display Pro, ColorMunki Display (new in Argyll CMS 1.3.4)
Datacolor/ColorVision Spyder 2
Datacolor Spyder 3 (since Argyll CMS 1.1.0)
Datacolor Spyder 4 (new in Argyll CMS 1.3.6)

Spectrometers

X-Rite ColorMunki Design, ColorMunki Photo (since Argyll CMS 1.1.0)
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth i1 Monitor (since Argyll CMS 1.0.3)
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth i1 Pro
X-Rite/GretagMacbeth Spectrolino

It seems to be imcomplete though, because according to an article at LibreGraphics (http://libregraphicsworld.org/blog/e...g-colorimeters) is also supports "NEC SpectraSensor Pro version of the i1 Display 3" as well as the ColorHug. I simply find the ColorHug particularly interesting because it's completely open, down to the hardwar, firmware and calibration software.

[RussianNeuroMancer]

Darktable: thanks for the update. I saw it yesterday too. I also gave it a try - it looks promising, though opening one of my photos had me almost give up - the colors were strange and resembled the look of dcraw converted RAW files 8 years ago.

Perhaps you are may be interested in Corel AfterShot Pro.

[powerhouse]

You have to use the right tool for the right job.

Sometimes that means using Windows or Mac.

Is there a reason why those options are off the table?

For photo editing, Windows or Mac definitely have apps to choose from.

For all the other things I do on a PC, Linux gives me plenty and more.

I have a dual-boot PC right now but don't like that at all - it's totally inconvenient. A Windows-only PC is out of the question. I like Linux, I have had very good experiences with it, over a long time now. My experience with Windows has been more troublesome, and as a user I don't like their ecosystem. Using a Windows system feels like being a 3rd class citizen.

[powerhouse]

Perhaps you are may be interested in Corel AfterShot Pro.

Thanks for the advise! I will definitely look into it. Do you have any experience with it?