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Thread: Goodbye ATI

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by uid313 View Post
    [*]Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Nvidia open source driver to be better than the open source AMD driver, despite AMD's support and Nvidia's lack of support.[/list]
    Consider this me correcting you, because you are wrong.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hal2k1 View Post
    The benchmarks are for Windows, but they ultimately reflect the underlying power of the graphics hardware, do they not? The very graphics hardware that could be used on Linux systems. The same graphics hardware where the benchmark performance of the top nVidia and AMD/ATI GPUs is well over three, and approaching four times the performance of the top Intel GPU.
    Wether it reflect the underlying power of the graphic hardware or not is not the problem. It's ultimately depend on the graphics driver for the hardware to run OK-ish or not. It's of no use if you have the best graphic card in this world if you can't use it, or if the driver can only driving 20% of the supposedly-performance, right?

    So, it depend on the driver. And the OSS driver != binary blob from respected company. So, in term of function and feature,
    • Nouveau != nVidia binary driver
    • Radeon driver != fglrx
    • for Intel, there's only open source intel driver


    Cause Intel drive all their effort in Linux on their open source driver, and have a head start, it became more mature than Radeon driver which have a slow start and to separate their driver development (for now), IMHO.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cl333r View Post
    So, RealNC, what are the ups and downs using Nvidia so far? Any bugs, glitches?
    The card is not here yet. It arrives on Thursday, Feb 9.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by t.s. View Post
    Wether it reflect the underlying power of the graphic hardware or not is not the problem. It's ultimately depend on the graphics driver for the hardware to run OK-ish or not. It's of no use if you have the best graphic card in this world if you can't use it, or if the driver can only driving 20% of the supposedly-performance, right?

    So, it depend on the driver. And the OSS driver != binary blob from respected company. So, in term of function and feature,
    • Nouveau != nVidia binary driver
    • Radeon driver != fglrx
    • for Intel, there's only open source intel driver


    Cause Intel drive all their effort in Linux on their open source driver, and have a head start, it became more mature than Radeon driver which have a slow start and to separate their driver development (for now), IMHO.
    I am fully aware of the different drivers for Linux, both open source and proprietary, available for different GPUs.

    Even if your point quoted above were true, and the Intel Linux driver really was more advanced, I doubt very much that it is so advanced that it realises all of the underlying power of the hardware compared to only 20% for the open source AMD/ATI drivers.

    For example, recently it was reported on January 9th 2012 on Phoronix that Intel drivers for Linux had reached the OpenGL 3 milestone.

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA0MDA

    It was later reported on January 29th the the open source AMD/ATI R600 Gallium3D driver can now do OpenGL 3.0, GLSL 1.30

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA1MDM

    Just 20 days later. This doesn't sound like Intel drivers are that far ahead of their competition, does it?

    Certainly Intel divers aren't going to have a 500% better performance (as would be required to make up for the lower performance of Intel GPUs) just because Intel are 20 days ahead in their driver development.

    So my reply to you would be that while you may (or may not) be marginally aware of the state of driver development, clearly you have no idea at all about the relative performance of the underlying hardware itself.
    Last edited by hal2k1; 02-08-2012 at 01:21 AM.

  5. #35
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    Default Prudence

    A few years ago I had more issues with fglrx. My ATI Radeon HD2900 was a nightmare, but like you I was also very forgiving. Waiting. The news of the monthly releases back then were very welcome, and it has paid off.

    Then got myself a greater Radeon card and now I haven't had a major driver issue in years.

    I have had minor driver issues, in part due to me upgrading too often while on Debian unstable. However, even then it was on the level of once a year, and solvable.

    Now I run Debian testing and haven't had any issue with fglrx in a year. I also don't have the time to maintain or tweak the system so I traded unstable for testing.

    I also only 'aptitude safe-upgrade'.

    The combo 'testing' and 'aptitude safe-upgrade' has been rock solid for me.

    Prudence

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hal2k1 View Post
    Certainly Intel divers aren't going to have a 500% better performance (as would be required to make up for the lower performance of Intel GPUs) just because Intel are 20 days ahead in their driver development.

    So my reply to you would be that while you may (or may not) be marginally aware of the state of driver development, clearly you have no idea at all about the relative performance of the underlying hardware itself.
    I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I finally switched to NVidia (I ordered a GTX 560 Ti). I've been using ATI cards since almost 10 years (a Radeon 7500 was the first.) But, lacking good Linux support for 10 years is too much. But you know what? In 10 more years from now, when maybe the drivers will be good at last, I'll switch back. But for now, you lost a very loyal customer who actually tried very hard to like your products much more than the ones from your competitor.

    So no more pro-ATI trolling from me. From now on I'm an pro-NVidia guy. Er, no wait... Strike that last part ;-)
    Exactly my story. And best part of it - AMD does not want you to buy their cards!

    You could buy used AMD card and test opensource drivers, or contribute to them - but never expect that you will be backed-up by full company support.

    Nvidia does not do opensource, AMD is not interested in opensource as selling point. There is some difference between, but only if you are PC hardware electronics engineer or student.

    Quote Originally Posted by uid313 View Post
    I got a Nvidia card. I am not a fanboy of any company.


    My Nvidia card works good under Linux. The proprietary drivers work great, and the open source drivers work alright too. I actually use the open source device drivers, as they cover my needs well.

    I don't like that Nvidia does not provide open source drivers nor does it support open source driver development.
    AMD on the other hand does contribute to open source development. Hence, I really would like to switch to AMD.

    But I cant.
    Thats pretty much my story, except I use blob, because I target performance hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    If I were buying a pure Linux laptop or desktop now, I would be getting an Intel that's for certain.
    True. But AMD is not bad on laptops - except power management and 3D in terms of performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
    I can certainly understand where you are standing. Myself, I just switched to Windows instead. Fglrx is really not good at all, and even appears to be getting worse (in the last 12 months, suspend has been broken, Gnome Shell still doesn't work, Xvba has gotten worse, and now Xv has started to crash). Radeon is great if it covers your needs, but lack of video acceleration and power management hurts.
    You either dump AMD or dump Linux.
    Unlike you, I dumped former - because thats not linux betraying you.
    The later is exactly what Microsoft/AMD(marketing & management) want for you to do.

    @RealNC: Not much time ago, a friend of mine had similar choice for spending 300€.
    As Bridgeman mentioned, AMD does not want you buying their high-end cards for opensource driver; fglrx definately not a choice, so because AMD did not like money, we decided for 2gb version of 560ti, instead of 2gb hd6950.

    Thats a sour thing to watch: an opensource graphics innovator, not properly backing-up opensource driver, not interested in selling hardware, not interested in YOUR money.
    Still remeber - nvidia can drop binary any day. But you have those windowze users to dump your card to. Like.... Blackstar

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I find that Intel is actually the best solution for the non-gamer. It has good performance for compositing desktops and also video acceleration which enhances the battery life on laptops. But if you want to run commercial 3D games, especially the so called "AAA titles", with all their eye candy and smooth framerates, Intel is the last thing you want. Which leaves ATI and NVidia and their binary drivers (forget the open drivers; not playing at 1920x1080 with as near to 60FPS as possible is not doing it.) And when it comes to binary drivers, NVidia wins. Having VDPAU and what seems the best support from Wine simply sounds like the better option.
    Yep! (char limit)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    @RealNC: Not much time ago, a friend of mine had similar choice for spending 300€.
    As Bridgeman mentioned, AMD does not want you buying their high-end cards for opensource driver; fglrx definately not a choice, so because AMD did not like money, we decided for 2gb version of 560ti, instead of 2gb hd6950.

    Thats a sour thing to watch: an opensource graphics innovator, not properly backing-up opensource driver, not interested in selling hardware, not interested in YOUR money.
    At the end of the day, it would seem that AMD treats Linux more like a second-class citizen than NVidia. Not that this isn't justified. They have their numbers on how many Linux users buy their hardware; the vast majority of their income comes from Windows users. So it is justified that their Linux support is lacking. Do not forget that they're a business, not a charity organization. Catalyst for Linux is buggy and lacks timely updates while their open source driver lacks tons of features and is very slow.

    So it seems that NVidia, even though they also make their money from Windows users, seems more committed to Linux support. They introduced a video accel architecture and supported it from day one, they work closely with Linux users and release beta drivers and actively try to fix bugs and they're quick with new X.Org and kernel updates.

    And they support FreeBSD too! I was impressed when I discovered that they provide their binary driver for FreeBSD and even Solaris. I'm personally not looking for open source support. I'm looking for *Linux* support. And they do that very well, so I feel like they actually deserve my money. They work hard for it, even though they don't have much reason to considering their paying Unix customers are only interested in workstation-type stuff. But they still come through and provide good Linux/Desktop/Multimedia features.

    Well, when they stop doing that, then they'll also stop deserving my money, meaning I won't be buying any more cards from them. Fair enough, I think.

  10. #40
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    Default Lame ATI drivers & Corporate astroturfing.....

    Hi RealNC,

    welcome to nVidia driver heaven. Your reward for purchasing this hardware, is that it will work as advertised! Hell, the driver updates even have notes!!!! *Love* my GTX-570.

    As for the other team, enough of the rhetoric already, just support your dam hardware so those whom purchase it can use it. Yeah I know, "to hard basket." Now for a millions and one excuses and legions of fan boy zombies!

    Reaches for BFG! It's hunting time!

    Kano, your a legend, keep it up! :-)

    Latters & tea and sympathies to the red team.....

    GreekGeek :-)

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