NetworkManager Manages Some Enhancements

[Teho]

What color is the sky on your planet?

Are you saying that systemd isn't going to be the dominant inti system or what's your point? At least openSUSE, Fedora, Mageia and Mandriva have adopted it already and MeeGo/Tizen/Mer and many other are planning to. That pretty much means that SEL, RHLE, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Unbreakable Linux etc. are going to use it in the future. I'd be suprised if Ubuntu wouldn't adobt it sooner or later.

But it shouldn't be too hard for you to investigate.

I'm no expert, my point was that if there's major problems with systemd then professional distributions wouldn't adopt it like they have.

Do consider that the network connectivity of the ~100 cash registers or so that I administer is mission critical.

Sounds like environment where one would use tailored system in any case. If NetworkManager isn't needed or it causes problems in such scenario of cource one should remove it. However for absolute majority NetworkManager causes no more harm in static environment that few megabytes of memory waste.

I'll let you know if ever there is a day that PulseAudio saves me more grief than it causes.

That's the reason it's shipped with just about every distribution by default. Even thought there are some hardware which have poor driver support that leads to problems with pulseaudio, it's worth it.

[ua=42]

It's also quite common to connect your laptop or netbook to external monitor with speakers, use bluetooth headphones or just swap the audio output, Pulseaudio makes this smooth and easy.

I have yet to find a laptop/desktop where pulse audio works with a standard plug in microphone (my friend's Linux computers and mine. We were trying to get voice chat to work). It's sad really. It supports all these not commonly used features but doesn't work out of the box with a basic $5 microphone. (I did get it to work ... eventually.) :-( And before you ask, this has been an issue on many different versions of Ubuntu and Mint including the current version of Ubuntu.

Network manager is ok. I wish it had the option to connect to the strongest of the routers on your list, not the one first alphabetically. (Annoying when it tries to connect to a wifi spot when it has only 1 bar when another spot, that I have on it's connect list has 5 bars.)

[DeepDayze]

I have yet to find a laptop/desktop where pulse audio works with a standard plug in microphone (my friend's Linux computers and mine. We were trying to get voice chat to work). It's sad really. It supports all these not commonly used features but doesn't work out of the box with a basic $5 microphone. (I did get it to work ... eventually.) :-( And before you ask, this has been an issue on many different versions of Ubuntu and Mint including the current version of Ubuntu.

Network manager is ok. I wish it had the option to connect to the strongest of the routers on your list, not the one first alphabetically. (Annoying when it tries to connect to a wifi spot when it has only 1 bar when another spot, that I have on it's connect list has 5 bars.)

While NM's getting better still such annoyances still remain. Ideally it should offer to connect to the strongest router signal in your list but it doesn't, so that should be put in a bug report possibly. I been using Wicd for my laptop's network manager as it is light and gets out of the way. As for PA it's total crap that is very very hard to remove once installed as it goes deep into the audio stack.

[sbergman27]

Are you saying that systemd isn't going to be the dominant inti system or what's your point?

Let's just say that the majority of Linux users are not going to be using systemd.

I'd be suprised if Ubuntu wouldn't adobt it sooner or later.

Doubtful. Upstart is mature, and has benefited from years of experience in the field. It has the capability of using sockets. But is generally configured not to because of the problems. Perhaps systemd has a facility for bypassing the socket method.

I'm no expert, my point was that if there's major problems with systemd then professional distributions wouldn't adopt it like they have.

Because in the entire history of Linux, no distro has never fallen flat on its face, Systemd reminds me a lot of devfs.

Sounds like environment where one would use tailored system in any case.

It is. But specifically, the matter of network stability in a static environment overlaps that of desktop users. It's not quite as critical for desktop users, They don't have a long line of retail customers scuffing around and threatening to walk out of the store. But they still benefit from a stable connection that doesn't suddenly decide to try to switch to a wireless network when a switch loses power, momentarily.

[Teho]

Let's just say that the majority of Linux users are not going to be using systemd.

And where do you get this? Distributions have to make a choise, stick with old, slow and ineffective init system or switch to something new and better. There is not much more to choose from except Upstart and systemd and when systemd wins hands down on everything except "maturity" the choise is quite obvious. systemd already works well on many systems which have not yet adopted it as default like Debian, Gentoo, Arch Linux and Chakra and with those that have like Fedora, openSUSE and Mandriva. With all likely hood it will also conquer the mobile space as it can provide better startup times and it was already considered before to replace Upstart on MeeGo.

Doubtful. Upstart is mature, and has benefited from years of experience in the field.

It might be more mature but it isn't as actively developed as systemd and doesn't do even a fraction what systemd is capable of. Developing a competing init system alone when a superior system is avaible sounds like waste of resources... and nothing like Canonical.

But they still benefit from a stable connection that doesn't suddenly decide to try to switch to a wireless network when a switch loses power, momentarily.

Disabling wireless connection is extremely easy and it does not connect automatically if one hasn't configured the network before and even if it did it would still automatically connect to the wired network right after it went back on... I find this extremely convenient behavior and it's configurable so I find it hard to see the downside.

[sbergman27]

And where do you get this? Distributions have to make a choise, stick with old, slow and ineffective init system or switch to something new and better.

I'm not completely convinced that SysV Init is really flawed. At any rate, boot speed is not really a reason to move to something different. Readahead fixed its one performance problem years ago. If you are looking to a new init system for better boot speed, you need to look again. I used to think as you do. But upon closer investigation, I gained a lot of respect for SysV Init. Newer and more complex is not necessarily better.

Anyway, if you weight current Upstart distros, and (planned) systemd distros, by user base, Upstart clearly comes out on top. And if you disagree, you need to submit some evidence supporting your assertion. You haven't done that.

It might be more mature but it isn't as actively developed as systemd and doesn't do even a fraction what systemd is capable of.

Not actively developed? Not capable of a fraction of... what? Please be specific.

Disabling wireless connection is extremely easy...

Try it. It has a way of mysteriously turning itself back on. I know this from long (and annoying) experience. (Emergency phone calls, etc.) If Network Manager worked as well as it should, it would likely be OK. But it's not. It's just "good enough" for casual users not to complain too much.

[sbergman27]

As for PA it's total crap that is very very hard to remove once installed as it goes deep into the audio stack.

I'll send you a set of flame-retardant underclothing as an early Christmas gift. I've found a brand that works really well. ;-)

-Steve

[jbrown96]

sbergman27,

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/131/351/eb6.jpg?1307463786

What distro, including version, are you using?

[Teho]

I'm not completely convinced that SysV Init is really flawed. At any rate, boot speed is not really a reason to move to something different. Readahead fixed its one performance problem years ago. If you are looking to a new init system for better boot speed, you need to look again. I used to think as you do. But upon closer investigation, I gained a lot of respect for SysV Init. Newer and more complex is not necessarily better.

In this case, it is and no readahead doesn't come even close to actually fixing the boot speed problem and even if it did systemd has the best impletation of that too. There's no question about the speed improvements, parallelization done right is always faster than one with out.

Anyway, if you weight current Upstart distros, and (planned) systemd distros, by user base, Upstart clearly comes out on top. And if you disagree, you need to submit some evidence supporting your assertion. You haven't done that.

The most of the distributions do not use neither of those at the moment. Upstart is used by a few, namely Ubuntu and its derivates, Chrome OS and Linux mobile OSes (that are either dead or planning on moving to systemd). Fedora and openSUSE used it but switched away to something better, systemd. I can't prove that future distros will choose systemd over Upstart but they do, it's obvious. Upstart is not only technically less advanced but it's also covered by CLA and really, no one likes that.

Not actively developed? Not capable of a fraction of... what? Please be specific.

Even with slight bias, http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html is a pretty good start on why to use systemd. Upstart doesn't see as active developement as systemd and if I recall correctly it also lost it's main developer. There little to none interst of developing it outside of Canonical.

[alcalde]

Are you saying that systemd isn't going to be the dominant inti system or what's your point? At least openSUSE, Fedora, Mageia and Mandriva have adopted it already and MeeGo/Tizen/Mer and many other are planning to. That pretty much means that SEL, RHLE, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Unbreakable Linux etc. are going to use it in the future. I'd be suprised if Ubuntu wouldn't adobt it sooner or later.

OpenSUSE won't be using systemd until 12.1 is released on the 15th. The default in OpenSUSE is to use NetworkManager for a laptop install, but not a desktop one. You can change this during or after install. PulseAudio has gone back and forth with being the default (back to default) but it can be disabled during the install/configure process before entering the desktop or any time after. OpenSUSE has ways to make everyone happy.