Btrfs Brings "Pretty Beefy" Changes In Linux 3.2

[sbergman27]

Umm, why are you calling fedora a train wreck?

Because it is.

The users of fedora understand that it is really for testing new software

That's really where the problem lies. Fedora fans tend to pitch Fedora as a distro like any other out of one side of their mouths, and as the cutting edge knight of Linux technology out of the other side. Fedora is RedHat's fast and loose playing perpetual RHEL beta. And there is really nothing wrong with that. In fact, I applaud them. But the deceptive advertising needs to go. Fedora can be coped with. But people should not be deceived into thinking that Fedora is representative of Linux's stability.

As long as people understand they are running a perpetual beta, I'm fine with it. In fact, I used to do it myself.

Anyway, I'm certainly not anti-btrfs. And I've been around the block enough times to have zeroed in on the idea that the userspace tools might be lagging the kernel code. It's a very common situation. But my impression is still not one of btrfs being ready for general consumption. But I will admit that I have not been paying close attention, lately.

[liam]

Because it is.



That's really where the problem lies. Fedora fans tend to pitch Fedora as a distro like any other out of one side of their mouths, and as the cutting edge knight of Linux technology out of the other side. Fedora is RedHat's fast and loose playing perpetual RHEL beta. And there is really nothing wrong with that. In fact, I applaud them. But the deceptive advertising needs to go. Fedora can be coped with. But people should not be deceived into thinking that Fedora is representative of Linux's stability.

As long as people understand they are running a perpetual beta, I'm fine with it. In fact, I used to do it myself.

Anyway, I'm certainly not anti-btrfs. And I've been around the block enough times to have zeroed in on the idea that the userspace tools might be lagging the kernel code. It's a very common situation. But my impression is still not one of btrfs being ready for general consumption. But I will admit that I have not been paying close attention, lately.

Can you prove that fedora is a train wreck? Frankly, I'd love to see how you go about doing so, b/c if you have a good method we might be able to get some good data about linux problems in general.

You know what? You are right. Fedora IS both a distro like any other and cutting edge, those things aren't mutually exclusive. It's a distro whose focus is on features (as opposed to being pretty, user-centric, or whatever) but which also spends an enormous amount of time on stability (again, the QA team is really amazing). The degree to which it manages this determines the success of each release, and since I've been using it for the past few releases I am in a position to tell you my experience has been fine. It has been no less stable than when I ran Ubuntu, Suse, or Debian (not stable). I have run into less successful fedora releases (11 or 12), but they've gotten a lot better. This being said, one would be a fool to run fedora on mission-critical anything, but the same would be true of almost ANY distro out there.
As for btrfs, I certainly agree with you, as does FESCO, and that is why you don't see btrfs as a default in fedora yet.

[kebabbert]

Rav,

You're really not doing any service to R4 by trash talking other filesystems and making unverifyable claims about them. It just makes you seem defensive. The kernel devs gave you guys a clear list of the salient problems with Resier4. I would suggest that you guys get to work on it. Trash talking the (time tested and stable) competition isn't going to fix the documented flaws in Reiser4. When the kernel devs deem that the R4 code is good enough to merge, we can revisit the matter.

And until then, avoid these filesystems if you value your data.

[russofris]

Oh, and BTW, have you seen the latest from Hans? It's a 117 page hand-written motion, in the form of a rant, demanding a new trial. In it, he accuses the entire state of California of being a "hive mind". And asserts that it was a state-wide conspiracy against him that got him convicted. He reprises his claim that his former attorney, William DuBois, has excessive levels of the hormone oxytocin, which he believes causes people to enjoy betraying others. And wants a blood test done.

I really have not followed the story, though it does not surprise me that he is lashing out in this manner. Given that his mind really has nothing to fixate on other than "being in jail", I fully expect him to go to great lengths to remedy his situation. He's a utopian, possibly a sociopath, and the objects that he constructs in his mind are incredibly complex by normal standards. While I do not posses the background or certification to call him "crazy", I'm certain that the consensus is that he's certainly not well adjusted and functional (aka dangerous).

I'm not going to defend the man. By all written accounts, he did what he did, and was judged accordingly. While I do have personal philosophical issues with "punishment", I won't even argue the sentence. If willing, I would like to see his talents put to use in a way that helps in his rehabilitation and restitution. Working on a filesystem (or anything else for that matter) can not undo what Hans did and cannot bring his victim back to life, but it can prevent the cumulative loss to society that the current terms of his imprisonment are causing.

[TheBlackCat]

I'm not going to defend the man. By all written accounts, he did what he did, and was judged accordingly. While I do have personal philosophical issues with "punishment", I won't even argue the sentence. If willing, I would like to see his talents put to use in a way that helps in his rehabilitation and restitution. Working on a filesystem (or anything else for that matter) can not undo what Hans did and cannot bring his victim back to life, but it can prevent the cumulative loss to society that the current terms of his imprisonment are causing.

If he is as paranoid as the reports here suggest, then I think getting involved in open-source software is about the worse thing you could do for his rehabilitiation. Someone who cannot handle consustructive criticism and interprets any rejection as a conspiracy is only going to be driven further over the edge.

[sbergman27]

Can you prove that fedora is a train wreck? Frankly, I'd love to see...

Wow. I've really offended you, haven't I? Ah, Linux! Sometimes it seems more like a religion than an operating system. Not only does one have to worry about offending the christians^W^W Linux users. But you also have to worry about offending adherents to the various denominations. If the temple of Fedora makes you happy, far be it from me to disillusion you. It's just that I have used it in my consultancy business. It made it through preliminary testing. But in actual use, it was an unmitigated disaster. I purged it from my clients' machines and refunded what labor charges they had paid.

But you don't want to hear that. Forget I brought it up.

And I won't mention what I replaced it with. It would probably upset you, unduly.

[russofris]

Wow. I've really offended you, haven't I? Ah, Linux! Sometimes it seems more like a religion than an operating system.

One could argue that there isn't a commodity OS in existence that isn't a train wreck (Including Win64). Discussions regarding the merits and shortcomings of one turd over the other will ultimately degenerate into an argument over "whose shit stinks the least?".

If he is as paranoid as the reports here suggest, then I think getting involved in open-source software is about the worse thing you could do for his rehabilitiation. Someone who cannot handle consustructive criticism and interprets any rejection as a conspiracy is only going to be driven further over the edge.

Agreed. I would recommend against having him participate in any open OSS community. I see no problem with him working alone, or with other inmates, and submitting through a willing liaison. Looking through the LKML, "social grace" does not appear to be a prerequisite to patch submission.

[liam]

Wow. I've really offended you, haven't I? Ah, Linux! Sometimes it seems more like a religion than an operating system. Not only does one have to worry about offending the christians^W^W Linux users. But you also have to worry about offending adherents to the various denominations. If the temple of Fedora makes you happy, far be it from me to disillusion you. It's just that I have used it in my consultancy business. It made it through preliminary testing. But in actual use, it was an unmitigated disaster. I purged it from my clients' machines and refunded what labor charges they had paid.

But you don't want to hear that. Forget I brought it up.

And I won't mention what I replaced it with. It would probably upset you, unduly.

I wouldn't say "offended", more like "induced a state of irreconcilable grief", but who am I to take "offence"
I know that fedora has a certain perception within the community but my experience hasn't been in-line with that of general perception hence why I try to counter it when I see it. Does it not make sense to you that someone can ask how one comes to the conclusion that something is a "train wreck" (itself a rather strongly worded description, I think you'll agree)? So I stand-by what I said, and am still curious how you came up with your views (also curious as to what versions you are talking about).
You mentioned consultancy, so I assume you are looking for something very solid. If that is the case, of course Fedora isn't great for that. If what they are doing is "really important" they shouldn't be running anything other than Windows or an enterprise backed distro.
BTW, Christ forgives you

[sbergman27]

BTW, Christ forgives you

Oh. Thank you. The Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Great Juju at the Bottom of the Sea both say that they forgive you, too. (Not to name-drop or anything, but I'm having a small dinner party tonight.)

Fedora has a certain "perception", and it is mostly correct.

You mentioned consultancy, so I assume you are looking for something very solid.

It's a small consultancy. I have a fair degree of flexibility. And this issue is more interesting and complex than you may realize. The slam-dunk answer is CentOS or Scientific Linux. And I do use those. But about half my users are *desktop* users. And the package availability for CentOS and SL are really pathetic. RedHat used to promise 18-24 month intervals between releases. But it was 3.5 years between RHEL 5 and 6. Oh my dear, things got creaky. Things like Evince are very difficult to upgrade independently of the distro. And it couldn't handle newer PDF's.

I've not found anything that is perfect. But customized installations of CentOS/Scientific Linux are nearly perfect for registers. Ubuntu LTS is good for NX desktop servers. (We also do remote desktops at offices in other cities.) Always with the option of upgrading, temporarily, to a non-LTS version, when needed.

[sbergman27]

Agreed. I would recommend against having him participate in any open OSS community. I see no problem with him working alone, or with other inmates, and submitting through a willing liaison. Looking through the LKML, "social grace" does not appear to be a prerequisite to patch submission.

I can't believe I'm stepping up to the plate for Hans. But here I am. Surely, contact with the OSS community, and a means of putting his talents to use, is more rehabilitative than simply living in a penal community. Nina is dead. Nothing we do can change that. While Hans is guilty as hell, it certainly appears to have been a crime of passion, committed in a heated moment.

I can't say for sure. But I suspect that the kernel devs would do their part to give Hans a little leeway. (By this, I don't mean accepting patches that don't deserve to be accepted. But just not badgering him as much as they did when he was badgering them from his home rather that from his prison cell.) I'm not sure what Hans would do. He might be just as nasty, or worse. And, of course, there are real security considerations to giving prisoners Internet access.

Then again, he may have other, untapped talents, which he could exercise without Internet access. Perhaps Martha Stewart could give him some tips.

-Steve