Linux and Mac are screwed

[energyman]

Securtiy:
1) MacOSX has stupid defaults
2) Apple does a horrible job closing security holes (MS is A LOT BETTER)
3) Apple lies to costumers about malware (just google it, was in the new a few weeks back. There is no malware. Your box is not infested... lies)

Result: MacOSX should not be used if you care about your safety.

[ninez]

I checked permissions and ownership of the files. From every point they should have been deletable.

They weren't.

But this is not surprising at all. MacOSX sometimes just 'forgets' files too - just ask the guy who does Vexxar he wrote (and filmed) about it extensively.

The images were fine. WinXP with Office 2003 and Office 2007 had no problems with them. Just MacOSX.

hmm, have you also tried using disk utility to fix/repair permissions on the whole system? maybe there is something else going on here...? it's an interesting issue, i've seen very similar issues, in the past, and was able to fix them, i think only once was it a pain in the ass - like you are having..i just can't remember the details as it was several years ago...

you got a link to the vexxar stuff?? im curious and would like to have a look, if you do (or i'll just google it when i am not too busy...

about the MSoffice stuff. i wasn't really trying to compare them in the sense that you would have the 'exact' problems in both cases, more i was saying that i see 'similar' problems, several times a year, and this isn't 'exclusively' a mac problem. - as in i wouldn't say windows, or linux sucks over a similar issue...that was my point.

here is another example of the same sort of potential problem, in another application. Gimp supports TIFF, however, there are more than one kind of .tiff file - certain types /variants do not work in gimp, loading them will cause gimp to completely crash... it could be for some reason or another something in the files ins't compatible, just a thought.

my point being, sometimes formats aren't to the spec, or can have incompatibility issues, and require a simple work around - such as converting them / using another format. it often will solve the problem..

[energyman]

if there was a fs problem: shouldn't the logs full with errors?
They weren't.

if there was a permission problem, why was it possible to delete the other files?
if there was a ownership problem? why did macosx fail quietly?

There were no errors. It just did not delete the stuff.

And about the images: they were created on another mac. Jpegs. There isn't much to the jpeg spec. Everything was fine until I tried to add the fifth or sixth image - and the system was beachballed.

I had to turn it off, it was so hopelessly hung there was no other thing left to do.

Hunter Cressall:

http://www.vexxarr.com/Rants.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWxC8ezE4Dk

[ninez]

Securtiy:
1) MacOSX has stupid defaults
2) Apple does a horrible job closing security holes (MS is A LOT BETTER)
3) Apple lies to costumers about malware (just google it, was in the new a few weeks back. There is no malware. Your box is not infested... lies)

Result: MacOSX should not be used if you care about your safety.

in Windows after an installation 3rd party anti-virus software must be installed (that is also a default in Windows, by not installing anti-virus - you are even more likely than your typical mac user to have malware show up quickly on your system.). and i am not in disagreement on the Mac issue - the defaults are terrible. but again, users should not expect there OS is secure, steps should be taken to make sure it is. period.

Mac's should be hardened, if you care about your safety and own a Mac, is more likely correct.

there is some Malware for Mac, correct. Apple does play this down - but what's important to note - for windows there is like something like 200,000,000 forms of malware...Mac doesn't have anywhere near that by a long shot. because of this, it hardly matters that MS does abetter job of securing holes,, and also even more improtantly - half of the time with malware, it is the user who executes or allows the malware to run, via clicking on something on the web (even by moving your curser over top sometimes), or installing an app that you thought was okay, but is malware, etc etc....so when you have such a significant amount of malware potentially trying to screw you on the MS platform (to which most is designed and targetd at...) that poses a bigger issue than for Mac...

what is sad but true, is i can't even count how many times, i have been called up to fix someone's computer / remove malware - only to find out, they themselves unwittingly allowed the software to run in the first place...

(we had to ban certain non-work related web use at work, because emplyees were doing this, without knowing it)..

so, if you take the number's into account and the fact that many average users (on MS or Mac) are very unaware of the dangers, presented by malware in the first place. (atleast on a Mac, if they have hardend it, or got a friend too, the chances are significantly decreased...

[ninez]

if there was a fs problem: shouldn't the logs full with errors?
They weren't.

if there was a permission problem, why was it possible to delete the other files?
if there was a ownership problem? why did macosx fail quietly?

There were no errors. It just did not delete the stuff.

And about the images: they were created on another mac. Jpegs. There isn't much to the jpeg spec. Everything was fine until I tried to add the fifth or sixth image - and the system was beachballed.

I had to turn it off, it was so hopelessly hung there was no other thing left to do.

Hunter Cressall:

http://www.vexxarr.com/Rants.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWxC8ezE4Dk

I will get back to you in a while on this, i've got to focus for a bit on some work i am doing today, remotely. up until this point i haven't been to distracted, but this stuff needs my full-attention right now....

i still would recomment running disk utility and fixing all permissions on the file-system...

the rest i will get back to you on..k?

[energyman]

someone once said:

Windows is like a barred, small window in the middle of a ghetto while MacOSX is like a country house with an open door in the middle of nowhere.

That said, Microsoft Security Essentials do very well in tests and don't cripple your system like Avira or Norton.

And I still not buy into that filesystem check stuff. If there is a fs-problem, the logs should show it. Are you trying to tell me that MacOSX is able to trip over filesystem errors without logging them? Is MacOSX really THAT broken?

[ninez]

someone once said:

Windows is like a barred, small window in the middle of a ghetto while MacOSX is like a country house with an open door in the middle of nowhere.

Well, coming from the perspective of someone who once lived on a small island in the middle of nowhere for over a decade, where people never locked their doors, - and where i never heard of anyone's house being broken into... and also being someone who has lived in small towns, suburbia and cities... - it is far more common place in a ghetto (or suburbia or even a small-town) to have your house broken into (bars, locks or not) than living in the middle of nowhere ~ so, i tend to think that analogy is severely flawed. I currently live in toronto, and i can assure you, any given week, i can read about any given neighborhood having more breakins, than any small town or country-side property in any given area.(using a neighborhood as an example, being as it population wise it is much closer in nature). this was also true of when i lived in Vancouver, and probably most if not all cities and ghettos.

That said, Microsoft Security Essentials do very well in tests and don't cripple your system like Avira or Norton.

MSE isn't a part of windows, and therefore is NOT a default. (ie: the bars don't come on the windows!) it must be installed after. which goes back to the comment i had said about hardening a mac, takes about as long as downloading and installing anti-virus software. hardening a mac, does not require another app running in the background either...

And I still not buy into that filesystem check stuff. If there is a fs-problem, the logs should show it. Are you trying to tell me that MacOSX is able to trip over filesystem errors without logging them? Is MacOSX really THAT broken?

whether or not you buy into that, think it would not be most sensible to cover all bases??

i'll be back in a while.....

oh, and before i look into either of your issues any further;

to do with trashbin - have you followed any and all steps found here:

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1526

and regarding Office;

what application are you using to edit / add images... are you using MacOffice?? some open/libre Office derivative?? what app?

it's very improtant, you haven't really said much on that. you didn't even explain that you were able to add a few jpegs, before it crashed, until your last message, which doesn't really help...right?

[energyman]

it was office. Not libre/open/whatever. Office. I just tried to add some jpegs to a word document. Something I do once in a while. You don't need to invest your time in this. When an office application can beach ball your system, your system is not well designed.

I didn't had a look into that article. But I did almost all steps mentioned there, except renaming because - that might be suprising - there were no special signs in it and unlocking. Because the files were not locked.

[ninez]

it was office. Not libre/open/whatever. Office. I just tried to add some jpegs to a word document. Something I do once in a while. You don't need to invest your time in this. When an office application can beach ball your system, your system is not well designed.

I didn't had a look into that article. But I did almost all steps mentioned there, except renaming because - that might be suprising - there were no special signs in it and unlocking. Because the files were not locked.

i spaced out on something. macOSX has a feature to do with the trash called something like 'secure trash" which you can overwrite, and delete anything in the trash, period. I forget how to do it off hand, (it's really simple to do though)... if you google something along the lines of 'can't empty trash bin Mac' + secure trash - i'm sure you can find it.... you don't need to change permissions or anything like that. i don't know how i've forgotten about that (i guess i just haven't really required it)...

i believe this feature goes all the way back to 10.1.xx and will solve your issue for sure.

AFAIK - i have seen MSoffice bomb Windows, countless times... so that's probably not the best card to try and play, or perspective to have... No OS is perfect. Not windows, MacOS, or anyone else. - i will say it again NO OS is perfect and You should not of any greater expectation of MacOSX than Windows or any other OS...(all OSes suck, as they say...lol). Ideally one uses what works best for them...

and also, something to keep in mind here, MacOffics has always been mildy buggy (to understate it). Office was designed using MS libs/toolkits/APis, microsoft ported it over, so if it's buggy. You can thank MS for that, as they mainatin it. i don't know which version you own, but i remember 2003 and 2008 having issues running under X. even more importantly -> while you assume this is Apple's fault, and/or the OS - it may be the application itself....being as this can happen in Windows too...In fact, i can much more easily crash windows with a buggy application than i have been able to on my mac (or any previous macs i have owned) I agree that it shouldn't bring down your whole system - but that may or may not be the OS's fault, and that is a pretty grand assumption to make without proof.

without running MacOffice in front of me (which i don't own, i don't invest money in Microsoft other than at work). it would be impossible to know if the application was at fault or the OS itself. - it would require running the debugging tool provided in Xcode, ot get a real idea....

I know of only one way to crash my Mac (that also will crash most OSes) is to physically disconnect my firewire soundcard, while i am using it...I get BSOD (black screen of death on a Mac). but if i do this in Windows it does the same thing, and if i do it in linux, the system wont die, but i have to kill jack-audio-connection-kit or the DE hangs (while linux continues to run fine). after killing jackd, my system returns to normal...

[crazycheese]

How about lastest auto-update patched windows 7 sp1 goes online and becomes immediately exploited and rooted via remote DCOM, which can not be shut down. *wonderfull* Times of sasser passed already, yet it is same piece of sht. Ah, fine, I install and antivirus and enjoy astrology forecast on how dangerous something may be!

Mac is only exploitable if you download some stuff from not-so-legal-sources that was already prepatched by russian or chinese underground puppetmaster. And you install it.

Same with linux, but on linux you have added security due to open code, changing ABI(more or less) and unpredictable default packaging(more or less).

PS. The guy at youtube video, energyman posted, is complete idiot. Windows is predictable my a??. He should do late night comedy.