Linux and Mac are screwed

[V!NCENT]

it looks like linux will never go up to its current record high = 5% : http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

On the desktop? I still disagree.

the more funny is "users must be prevented from ever touching system's internals "
i do not know if i should not say yes : because linux kernel is real shit , that i try to get working when i want to make it work with my pcs . by the way writing that "you contradict" linux philosophy that let user recompiles the kernel .

Should and elevator user be allowed to service an elevator without proper knowledge? The point is just using an elevator, right?

Developers, however, should be able to. What is your point?

[?John?]

it looks like linux will never go up to its current record high = 5% : http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

the more funny is "users must be prevented from ever touching system's internals "
i do not know if i should not say yes : because linux kernel is real shit , that i try to get working when i want to make it work with my pcs . by the way writing that "you contradict" linux philosophy that let user recompiles the kernel .

This crap is getting old. I'm sick and tired of people who keep bitching about something they don't even grok. I gave it a shot, but we got nowhere - you're desperately stuck in your ways and violently refuse to accept any other perspective. The more we try, the more you sound like just another troll. This conversation's over. Have a nice day.

[jrch2k8]

it looks like linux will never go up to its current record high = 5% : http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

the more funny is "users must be prevented from ever touching system's internals "
i do not know if i should not say yes : because linux kernel is real shit , that i try to get working when i want to make it work with my pcs . by the way writing that "you contradict" linux philosophy that let user recompiles the kernel .

erm wrong again (you didn't follow my advice... wikipedia is free you know ....) linux is the most used kernel on the planet aka your wifi router, embeded devices, industry machinery, android phones and tablets, meego, servers, supercomputers(absolute king here), bigger supercomputers, in fact if i don't remember wrong NSA and NASA love it too, etc ..

now kde/gnome/e17/etc + some base GNU tools are not as popular in distros as windows is in a product in the x86 desktop world(not that much of a big market compared to mobile phones for example).

about your linux kernel is shit rant, well i have years that beside compiling my kernel to activate RT capabilities i don't remember ever needing to fight through firmware or any other low level function of the kernel (note that i know how a kernel works and what should be compiled internally and what should be a module) and taking in account that many millions of ppl (companies, enthusiast, etc) seem to not need it unless they are actually developing something, my guess is you are doing something very wrong here.

don't play the "my weird hardware" card cuz well i tried this for years on sparc/arm/ and x86 and my current pc is very beasty high end too and still no issues here. (all this don't include my only nightmare FGLRX but that is a crappy driver issue not a kernel one).

understand something linus or anyone in the linux community sought of linux kernel as "hey let make this easy enough for my grandma so she can compile a kernel whenever she wants" (again read wikipedia and find what opensource means ) but a means for profesionals, students (of computer science or alike) and hobbist(with the appropiate tech level) to share/learn/benefit from each other works in a public way bla, bla bla.

having the ability to compile sources doesn't have any relation to be a security expert lol, like driving your Suv doesn't make you a mechanical engineer.

so yes any Linux/BSD/etc distro or commertial OS for security reason should isolate the user side of the OS from the kernel level functions as much as possible. if you can compile your own distro and remove all the security features, hey good for ya but now you are on your own and if you are a security expert you probably are going to make your own distro to harden and isolate stuff even more that before.

before you whine with some half baked concept, MAC and Windows do this too(in a crappy way but they kinda do it ) and installing drivers is not a low level kernel feature before you ask(the low level access is handled by the installer while you watch a cute GUI and click next). the only difference is that you don't have the win32 kernel source files

[kraftman]

i do not know if i should not say yes : because linux kernel is real shit , that i try to get working when i want to make it work with my pcs . by the way writing that "you contradict" linux philosophy that let user recompiles the kernel .

The shit is you hardware if you have to do some magic tricks with the kernel to make it work. Btw. installing firmware is a childish task in Kubuntu:

sudo apt-get install [choose a firmware here].

[ahlaht]

Btw. installing firmware is a childish task in Kubuntu:

sudo apt-get install [choose a firmware here].

To be fair, it's not always that easy. I just recently installed Debian 6.0 Squeeze on a new and rather expensive IBM server. Everything worked out of the box _except_ the network interface cards which needed "non-free" firmware. So I had to separately visit debian.org on another computer and download the firmware. Only after that the apt-get magic worked.

But I'm not complaining here. I'm simply telling what happened.

And of course for Windows users it wouldn't have been anything new because they have to download drivers all the time anyway. But for me it was something new.

Btw. this thread is just awesome.

[ninez]

@VINCENT

YOUR problem with Macs:

"-Unreliable hardware"

i've owned 9 different Apple computers over the years (spanning 15years, but i also owned an Apple II when i was a kid). more recently - G4, iMacs, macbook pro's to my current Mac Pro - i've never had a single hadware problem, EVER! And in the case of my firewire soundcard, it only works well under MacOSX - winXP/win7 blows chunks with it, linux is okay but occasionally gives the odd issue...

"-Crappy build quality cases"

sometimes yah (usually the base model macbook), but most of the time, no. in fact, my Mac Pro is wonderfully put together. So was my old G4, so was my MacBook Pro.. the last few generations of macbook pro's are excellent.

"Shitty service"

really?? i've never had to have any mac serviced, nor have i needed to call customer support even once (but hey, mac's suck for real usability, right?)

how often have you personally had to get support from Apple????

"-Shitty price"

yup, they are pricy. i wont disagree there, but the software and hardware is often better integrated. (as is the case with firewire). there latest offering thunderbolt/light-peak is awesome. often Apple bundles new technologies in their hardware which i think partially drives up costs (as they develop a lot of this stuff too).

However, Apple software is very reasonably priced, and similar software for windows, especially what Microsoft packages with it, usually sucks crap. Apple produces much nicer multimedia software, i like many of the titles available.

..and you also have to consider that Microsoft is now changing their business model. just look at office 365 - i don't know about you but i'm not interested in paying microsoft a monthly licensing free, rather than a one time purchase - we are now looking at phasing out MsOffice at the office. We can't get around sharepoint licences,which are insane - In general, microsoft licenses are really expensive, restrictive, and Microsoft software also tends to be insecure and often problematic. so, i don't mind paying more for hardware, if the software works, is cheaper often more straight forward and simple to use and i don't lose time to stupid MS related problems.

"-Slower than Gallium3D drivers"

in my own experiences - gallium3d drivers really really suck, and can't even run many 3d apps very well, if at all. the driver is also incomplete. it has potential. but no one who requires real 3D performance is using gallium3d, or open-source drivers in general. it's common knowledge that all open-source GFX drivers lack features found in the binary versions - Which makes your argument completely pointless and N/A... I will use autodesk Maya as an example (being as it runs under linux and Mac). maya runs fine under OSX - the performance is very reasonable. Official Nvidia binary drivers under linux work very well with Maya, while gallium3d doesn't even support half of the crap required to run it. but you can substitute Maya with Blender - and see what i mean. gallium3d is nothing special, or even useful, really. Gallium3d is a last resort.... my old dell inspirion with ATI 1300 used to be able to run compiz back in the day, not having to use Gallium3d, but after about 2.6.33 (KMS) it was broken - now that machine uses Gallium3d - compiz performance is pathetic! so is any and all 3d acceleration.

keep in mind too, MacOSX can run Maya with OSX having it's own compositing running without any noticable performance loss. I would love to see Gallium3d be able to handle any of that - but it can't by any stretch of the imagination. Imagine trying to run a similar setup under linux (if Gallium3d could actually do it)... Oh wait, that's right we have to "imagine" because Gallium3d is nowhere near being ready to handle these types of applications, and probably never will. The binary drivers will always be better than Gallium3d.

"-Old GCC"

and yet, all applications and the OS run perfectly fine and fast.

what version of GCC are you using????

"-Malware (yes they do)"

i didn't say they didn't. what i said was that in comparison to Windows - there is almost ZERO -there is a big difference between saying "almost zero" or saying Zero. furthermore it's laughable if you are actually trying to say that Mac-users have the same malware/spyware/virus issues that windows has been plagued with and probably always will be plagued with...

"-Break down just as frequently as Windows (macfixit.com exists for a reason)"

just because their are websites like this does not mean Mac's break down as frequently as windows machines.... it just means that Mac's can have problems too. So, there is absolutely no validity to your statement. maybe if you had real numbers and statistics to back up your claim, i could agree but it's clear these are just your own opinions and rationizations - with no real evidence to back you up.

Generally speaking, in the IT industry it is widely understood that Windows machines are measured in days, weeks or month's of up-time, while *nix systems usually are measured by years...this phrase originally was regarding servers - but it applies to the desktop as well. being as the up-time/down-time i am referring to has everything to do with the OS (as in i am not referring to hardware failures here).

again, i have never had a mac break down. no one i know has, except a girl i know who dropped her macbook on concrete, while sitting about 9feet above the concrete. but she was able to get it serviced and fixed. Then i upgraded the system to Snow Leopard. it still works great, and that was a few years ago... (so maybe packaging isn't as bad as you think!)

the other situation i can think of, is in 2008 when Nvidia mis-packaged their GPU's and Macbook Pro's were affected. Apple agreed to replace any and all macbook's affected for free - no service charge, and will honor this agreement into 2012 - wow, what terrible service...lol - this was nvidia's fault - not Apple.

people will have issues with computers here and there no matter what. but i can tell you this my Windows friend's call me with problems 10x the amount that my Mac friends do.. and my Mac friend's aside from 1 guy - are far less computer-savvy. This is also true of many of the people i work with. Those who own Apple, ask me for help far less. 3 people in the Office switched to Apple after seeing over a couple of years how their co-workers weren't having computer issues,
while they would run into problems much more frequently...

"-Totaly inconsistant UI"

again, that is nothing more than your opinion. I find MacOSX to have a much better interface than ANY version of Windows. it is VERY consistent, stable and VERY usable. having multiple desktops, expo, etc - is very handy and increases productivity... mac apps look great, i always know what very button, slider, window type, etc - is used for and what they do. everything is easy access. Finder is great, all of the administrative tools are great and work exactly as expected. you only find it inconsistent because you probably have never owned a Mac, would be my guess...

...and if that is the case - then your arguments are pointless, because you don't know what your talking about because you lack the hands on experience - I work with Windows (XP/7/2008server) everyday. just like i use MacOSX everyday, just like i use linux (CentOS and Arch) everyday. In fact, in the case of my Mac and Linux desktops - i use an app called "synergy" - that allows me to control both Desktops with 1 single pointing device (Wacom Tablet) and 1 keyboard. it's slick So, generally at home, i am using both my Mac and linux desktop at the same time almost as one computer, like a mutli-head setup.

"Now that we've got that out of the way; This is about the freakin interface.
What moron thought he could win an argument with hardware pics?

WTF..."

lol. ya, i didn't see the point either.

[ninez]

And for some of us who want to do image/video editing, having a Dual CPU PC with a High end nVidia Card for Cuda Acceleration (and OpenCL), a PC will costs less that 1/2 a Mac Pro, and you can still have colour correct Non apple (Or apple) monitors attached.

Mind you I am running a Hackintosh for 3D Modelling/Rendering as well as Photoshop and Premier Pro/AE, so I guess I just proved you right

yup, you did just prove my point, lol.

there is still a difference in how color management is done on Mac vs. PC - it is color correct across the board, while in Windows it tends to be per application.

...and ypu, Mac's are expensive.

[V!NCENT]

@VINCENT

YOUR problem with Macs:

"-Unreliable hardware"

i've owned 9 different Apple computers over the years (spanning 15years, but i also owned an Apple II when i was a kid). more recently - G4, iMacs, macbook pro's to my current Mac Pro - i've never had a single hadware problem, EVER! And in the case of my firewire soundcard, it only works well under MacOSX - winXP/win7 blows chunks with it, linux is okay but occasionally gives the odd issue...

Have you forgotten:
1. the nVidia fiasco? Dead motherbords everywhere?
2. All recent 17" MacBook Pro's die under load. Seriously... load?
3. iPhone 4 dropping calls due to horrible and extremely stupid external antenna design
4. iPad 1 screens turning yellow because of glue.

"-Crappy build quality cases"

sometimes yah (usually the base model macbook), but most of the time, no. in fact, my Mac Pro is wonderfully put together. So was my old G4, so was my MacBook Pro.. the last few generations of macbook pro's are excellent.

Like I said above: recent MacBook Pro 17" (at least first batches) stop working under load. There are so many people getting deformed Unibody cases from dropping their bags (with protect cases) a little to hard on the ground. If you throw a Sony Vaio of a high desk, no problem. In fact; they are designed and stress tested to resists that.

"Shitty service"

really?? i've never had to have any mac serviced, nor have i needed to call customer support even once (but hey, mac's suck for real usability, right?)

how often have you personally had to get support from Apple????

A friend of mine has a temporary job (in between studies) at a computer store.
Apple problems: send them and wait for a month for a repair on avarage.
Sony problems: You call Sony. No questions asked and the very next day the post office man stops by, gives you a new Sony for the customer (yes) and takes the old one back for repair. No. Questions. Asked. Meanwhile at Apple they are like "Well... No I don't wanna, because their is a tiny miny mo-smudge next to the Apple logo, or a sticker. Hell no, fuck off"

"-Shitty price"

yup, they are pricy. i wont disagree there, but the software and hardware is often better integrated. (as is the case with firewire). there latest offering thunderbolt/light-peak is awesome. often Apple bundles new technologies in their hardware which i think partially drives up costs (as they develop a lot of this stuff too).

They get fabbed by Foxxcon in China for bottom price. Hardware? Acer could deliver the same specs for $700, so it's also not the components like CPU and GPU. The flatpanel is realy, seriously to start crying about. Jesus. And they have been sued for it and lost.

However, Apple software is very reasonably priced, and similar software for windows, especially what Microsoft packages with it, usually sucks crap. Apple produces much nicer multimedia software, i like many of the titles available.

With the reduced cost by going Vaio you can buy Sony Vegas & co, which beats the shit out of the Apple bundeled software.

..and you also have to consider that Microsoft is now changing their business model. just look at office 365 - i don't know about you but i'm not interested in paying microsoft a monthly licensing free, rather than a one time purchase - we are now looking at phasing out MsOffice at the office. We can't get around sharepoint licences,which are insane - In general, microsoft licenses are really expensive, restrictive, and Microsoft software also tends to be insecure and often problematic. so, i don't mind paying more for hardware, if the software works, is cheaper often more straight forward and simple to use and i don't lose time to stupid MS related problems.

Microsoft Windows since NT has been build from the gound up for networking microkernels, in other words: distributed computing. It shows in file systems, rights, everything. Buy an university grade OS Design and Architecture book and you know why Windows is expensive and beats the shit out of Apple for larger than a 10 workers company.

"-Slower than Gallium3D drivers"

in my own experiences - gallium3d drivers really really suck, and can't even run many 3d apps very well, if at all. the driver is also incomplete. it has potential. but no one who requires real 3D performance is using gallium3d, or open-source drivers in general. it's common knowledge that all open-source GFX drivers lack features found in the binary versions - Which makes your argument completely pointless and N/A... I will use autodesk Maya as an example (being as it runs under linux and Mac). maya runs fine under OSX - the performance is very reasonable. Official Nvidia binary drivers under linux work very well with Maya, while gallium3d doesn't even support half of the crap required to run it. but you can substitute Maya with Blender - and see what i mean. gallium3d is nothing special, or even useful, really. Gallium3d is a last resort.... my old dell inspirion with ATI 1300 used to be able to run compiz back in the day, not having to use Gallium3d, but after about 2.6.33 (KMS) it was broken - now that machine uses Gallium3d - compiz performance is pathetic! so is any and all 3d acceleration.

You have got to give Apple credit for the smooth experience. However, did you know each time a fancy effect is needed, like smooth scrolling, Apple overclocks the hardware? Yeah really. Now how do they deal with battery life? Think Mac OS X is power efficient? Take a loot at the battery size of your MacBook Pro. Probably around 1/3 the case of a 17" version.

Now the rest of your post is fair enough to not slay down. About that nVidia GPU problem again (yes I read it); they should have gone through testing.

PS: Instead for on thing. Why does Quicktime X have a black title bar? Inconstistancy........ ough....... (the rest is fair enough, like the back app time travel interface)

[kraftman]

To be fair, it's not always that easy. I just recently installed Debian 6.0 Squeeze on a new and rather expensive IBM server. Everything worked out of the box _except_ the network interface cards which needed "non-free" firmware. So I had to separately visit debian.org on another computer and download the firmware. Only after that the apt-get magic worked.

But I'm not complaining here. I'm simply telling what happened.

I don't have any experience with this, because I never had to use additional firmware.

[ninez]

Have you forgotten:
1. the nVidia fiasco? Dead motherbords everywhere?

I've already discussed that. Apple was more than willing to fix those problems for free. And it wasn't everywhere or even universal, it was only certain serial numbers/batches, and was easily remedied. read further down to see what i mean by easily remedied/fixed..

2. All recent 17" MacBook Pro's die under load. Seriously... load?
3. iPhone 4 dropping calls due to horrible and extremely stupid external antenna design
4. iPad 1 screens turning yellow because of glue.

as for the rest. you finger Apple as the only manufacturer with these types of issues, meanwhile it happens with Dell, HP, and every other manufacturer. period. there specific issues might be different, but nonetheless exist. And i don't even need to cite one example, a quick look through ANY companies forum will show you that. I've never experienced any of the problems you list here...

Like I said above: recent MacBook Pro 17" (at least first batches) stop working under load. There are so many people getting deformed Unibody cases from dropping their bags (with protect cases) a little to hard on the ground. If you throw a Sony Vaio of a high desk, no problem. In fact; they are designed and stress tested to resists that.

I should point out here, that it is only the first batches that have that problem. I'm a smart consumer, and i am unlikely to ever buy anything (especially technology) freshly released. it's like all the idiots who went out and bought Vista to replace their stable XP install with....how dumb was that???? Not very smart at all. I wouldn't have bought a iPad1 either, not when they had just been released and i had already seen the specs on the next gen ipads..

As for "dropping laptops" - people who do that are dumb. I would never do that, regardless if a device as been stress tested, or not. that's moronic. - that's like wearing a helmet, and assuming it's okay to repeatedly smash your head off a wall, and then expecting to not kill any brain-cells or have a headache after doing that for a few hours...lol another exampler would be - you buy a pyrex cookware (like a pan), you are well aware - that is smash resistent... but what... does that now mean you should throw it around and drop it over and over....?!?!?

hell no. that wouldn't be sensible at all. it would no doubt eventually break from the continous stress.

A friend of mine has a temporary job (in between studies) at a computer store.
Apple problems: send them and wait for a month for a repair on avarage.

Your friend obviously isn't working at the Apple Store - I went with a friend who had the failed Nvidia GPU. (i diagnosed the problem). He could have had it back the same day, but was busy and picked it up the next day - not a big deal. Taking your macbook to a computer store that is only an authorized dealer for Apple is a waste of time (as your friend told you). you would be much better off to contact the nearest Apple Store and deal with them.

I know other people with similar experiences. Usually to have anything fixed at the Apple Store you wait like an hour or two - that's it! if they don't have the parts - they can be ordered, and you come back without sending away your macbook at all.

Sony problems: You call Sony. No questions asked and the very next day the post office man stops by, gives you a new Sony for the customer (yes) and takes the old one back for repair. No. Questions. Asked. Meanwhile at Apple they are like "Well... No I don't wanna, because their is a tiny miny mo-smudge next to the Apple logo, or a sticker. Hell no, fuck off"

Interesting, and yet with my friend who had to replace his GPU - he was NOT the original owner. Apple did not give him a hard time and honoured the agreement, fixed the macbook pro and put it back in his hands, very quickly.

My brother traded in his ipod touch for a new one, no questions asked. Apple is usaully pretty good about this kind of stuff, what your saying just sounds like FUD.

They get fabbed by Foxxcon in China for bottom price. Hardware? Acer could deliver the same specs for $700, so it's also not the components like CPU and GPU. The flatpanel is realy, seriously to start crying about. Jesus. And they have been sued for it and lost.

...Sure, acer can deliver it for cheaper - but ya know what - acer is never a company i would buy from. I've had more problems from Sales-reps that own Acer products than ANY other PC-manufacturer, period. (and that is consistent over the last 4-5yrs).

With the reduced cost by going Vaio you can buy Sony Vegas & co, which beats the shit out of the Apple bundeled software.

with the reduced cost, i would be running a shitty laptop, using windows and sony vegas - ya, right!!!!

Sony Vegas is okay, but far less usable (and overkill) for the noob who just wants to throw together a home video.
ilife is probably a better deal, its cheap (if it isn't already bundled) and comes with a lot of software. On top of that, why the hell would i want to use Sony Vegas - when i own Final Cut Pro???? my answer - i wouldn't.... Final Cut Pro is better and much more of an industry standard than Vegas ever will be. - and it still doesn't change the fact that Apple bundles superior software than Microsoft (clearly you avoided jumping on that one, and decided to interject Sony into the picture, which personally i could care less about sony).

Microsoft Windows since NT has been build from the gound up for networking microkernels, in other words: distributed computing. It shows in file systems, rights, everything. Buy an university grade OS Design and Architecture book and you know why Windows is expensive and beats the shit out of Apple for larger than a 10 workers company.

lol... No, they built it from the ground up, because MS didn't have a proper networking stack (inital versions of linux, and obviously BSD had superior stacks at the time) Dude, Im a fucking Sysadmin - distributed computing is better with *nix systems than with Windows. - you live in a fantasy world if you think otherwise.... the only thing Windows has going for it is gaming, and locking it's customers into using things like MSoffice, sharepoint, etc - that's about it.

Apple's goal is not to be in every office or to be a distributed system - i don't know where you get that idea - that is plain stupid. there focus tends to be multimedia/design, and providing an interface that is intuitive and easy to use.

If Microsoft was a superior platform for distributed computing - linux wouldn't be kicking it has for these types os uses. You thinking that NT / windows is expensive because it is the world's "premier distributed operating system" - that just has to be a joke.... you are joking right??!?!? Microsoft charges lots for thier software because they are a software company, not only that but they can because so many people are locked into using their products, that they have no choice in the matter...

You have got to give Apple credit for the smooth experience. However, did you know each time a fancy effect is needed, like smooth scrolling, Apple overclocks the hardware? Yeah really. Now how do they deal with battery life? Think Mac OS X is power efficient? Take a loot at the battery size of your MacBook Pro. Probably around 1/3 the case of a 17" version.

Interesting, one problem though - when you say 1/3 of the case on a 17" - you do realize how thin apple's batterires are right?!? on average, companies like HP, Dell, ACER, etc make bulkier laptops with bigger batteries. i've never had issues with battery life, nor has it been a problem for me.

Now the rest of your post is fair enough to not slay down. About that nVidia GPU problem again (yes I read it); they should have gone through testing.

Of course, you are right - Nvidia should be testing any and all GPU's before selling them to other companies like Apple, who plan to integrate nvidia's hardware into thier systems...

PS: Instead for on thing. Why does Quicktime X have a black title bar? Inconstistancy.

Lots of Mac applications are like that. The black titlebars were introduced in 10.5.6 i beleive, and can be found in many many applications - although most tend to be multimedia applications - Logic 9 Pro for example - anytime you load up a VST instrument it will have a black window/titlebar.

it isn't uncommon, nor is it inconsistent. I have probably 10-15 applications that have similar themes...i like it.