To the AMD people: Money wasted.

[pingufunkybeat]

I don't feel the need to attack the op, he has issues with the drivers, and that's legitimate. We'd all like for OSS drivers to be more advanced, and it's not always very easy to get the latest version of the stack updated, especially for less experienced users.

The main thing still remains what is important to you. In my opinion, AMD is doing the right thing -- funding open source drivers and releasing documentation. Regardless of how many FPS they get, Nvidia is doing the wrong thing.

I am impressed with how far the radeon OSS drivers have come in the last year. OpenGL3 is long in coming, and there are minor glitches with powersaving from time to time, but using the FLOSS drivers is simply a joy. Everything works, everything is integrated with the rest of my system, everything is smooth the way it has never been for me in 6 years of nvidia. For this, I am thankful. This is more important than emulating Direct3d and running Windows games off your NTFS partition.

When the main criticism boils down to FPS and not being able to run windows binary games using windows 3d API on windows drivers running LINUX, then you know that AMD is doing lots of things right. Personally, I run two composited desktops on a low-budget multi-seat HD4550/HD4350 combination, with an external LCD TV for watching HD movies, and I play the occasional native 3d game, with complete powersaving, either dynamic or using profiles. While pure performance could be improved, the experience is near perfect. Kudos to the developers, both AMD ones, and community ones.

I'm not getting an Nvidia card until they release specs and support open source. AMD has bitten the bullet and gone the hard (but right) way. They will have my support for that.

[mirv]

I think that's pretty fair. I do believe brigeman has himself made noises along the lines of composited desktops are relatively experimental. Having said that, and while looking lovingly over there to my nVidia card I'm reminded that depending on requirements, Linux users need not go without compositing if they buy an alternative vendors products. I unfortunately have a use case which exposes one of Xorgs weaknesses. This means that for me, while far from perfect, AMD is a better choice than is nVidia. For those with two or fewer monitors, nVidia all the way for now.




Wow, that seems strange to me. I'm tempted to say "How very WindowsXP of them" (kidding)

Given that Vista, Windows 7, OS X, and Linux (depending of graphics hardware) provides for compositing with its associated benefits, any platform not providing it as an option looks decidedly obsolete to me. It's not a deal breaker to me though, just sub-optimal.




I'd say, personally I get the feeling that's what they're trying to say, be due to frustration may be letting emotion seep into the equation a little.

To be fair, I'm using winxp right now. No choice however, I'm at work and letting my mind mull over a few issues (hence when I go quiet again, we all know that I've figured it all out).
I personally still use E16, I just can't seem to be able to use anything else, but E17 might be able to steal the show, and I might want to be tinkering with composite in that. Maybe I'll personally care more about it then.
I personally would like to see X be given a bit of an overhaul - it seems to be the general consensus from everybody that for a modern desktop, it's needed.

And someone has to say it: nerdraaaage!

[mugginz]

To be fair, I'm using winxp right now.

AAAAaaaaarrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[crazycheese]

The list of features that any hardware driver should provide in order to be usable, priority sorted:
- stability (as in absence of bugs and crashes)
- hardware support
- opensource; or updated software support
- (3D) performance
- power management
- (3D) features
- easiness to install (out of the box thing)
- non-direct features(video acceleration etc)

The amount of advancement here reflects >the company policy< towards linux.

Watching the whole AMD driver situation, there seem to two options:
- leaving fglrx workstation and advancing opensource to match consumer needs. Results in advantage against Nvidia.
- advancing fglrx workstation driver and leaving opensource to match only basic funtionality. Nvidia way. With AMD they seem to have edecided to follow this way as well, which will result in Nvidia=AMD+4 years progress. Results in equal situation against Nvidia, but only in 4 years.

Also, calling a requirement to mess with things whole day in order to get them working or issue free is not "windows way".

You are basically saying linux is designed to suck, to be complicated, to require heavy manual interaction to work at all. If its not, it is not linux and you are a windows user. So it must be 5% desktop share is for geeks and other masochistic people. Only windows boons say so.

Mr James is correct.

In the end, you either buy a card and expect your money to go in the direction you support.
Or you buy unsupported hardware and search other ways to make it work(hobby programmers, finding money together to hire people to write the driver, coding yourself).

99 from 100 linux people will choose 1st path, especially if the driver is open to allow 2nd path compliment the 1st.

[bridgman]

there seem to two options:
- leaving fglrx workstation and advancing opensource to match consumer needs. Results in advantage against Nvidia.
- advancing fglrx workstation driver and leaving opensource to match only basic funtionality. Nvidia way. With AMD they seem to have edecided to follow this way as well, which will result in Nvidia=AMD+4 years progress. Results in equal situation against Nvidia, but only in 4 years.

Not exactly. Leaving fglrx and the workstation market puts us at a huge *disadvantage* in that market. Our approach is what you would call option #3, which is continuing to advance *both* drivers.

[Mr James]

The majority of users here I guess are Arch users. They pride themselves on simplicity - simple is the way to go. That having an rc.conf is sooo much better, clearer and transparent than debian's init. That debian is way to frustrating to tweak. Then they tell you how you are a noob or a "typical 'windoz' user" because you do not want to spend the rest of your natural life tweaking with ever experimental mesa and xf86-video-ati upgrades and xorg.conf settings. Go figure...

BTW, while I'm speaking of Debian, I love it how everybody nowadays tell you Debian is a rusty old distro that takes forever to release. Exactly what has happened in since Lenny was released in terms of hardware support? Development. Nothing finished. Here we are about to release Squeeze and still FOSS drivers are experimental and unstable. Those people smart enough to stick with Debian stable saved themselves all the hassle.

[Mr James]

Not exactly. Leaving fglrx and the workstation market puts us at a huge *disadvantage* in that market. Our approach is what you would call option #3, which is continuing to advance *both* drivers.

AMD serving two masters? Jack of all trades master of none? Sounds about right.

BTW Mr Bridgman, if you got the feeling that I was being disrespectful to you (other members got that idea) I am sorry - not my intention.

[crazycheese]

Not exactly. Leaving fglrx and the workstation market puts us at a huge *disadvantage* in that market. Our approach is what you would call option #3, which is continuing to advance *both* drivers.

Why not approach #1, where workstation continues to focus on workstation and opensource focuses on consumer segment? 3000$ cards are for people with specific needs and demands, and in current situation I see pathway #2 - pushing proprietary fglrx in consumer area.

In the end (2-3 years) fglrx(catalyst) will be equal to nvidia blob. Opensource with 3-4 developers will be VESA superset.
3 years pass you gain no advantage to nvidia, nvidia moves further.
If I have 500$ in my pocket, I cannot invest into a card that will perform as VESA superset. Which puts large cross on opensource strategy.

If amd fears know-how leaks via opensource, they should provide know-how in gpl cover and support fsf in suing any company that puts it into proprietary.

Regarding possible "Linux Mint > Ubuntu" case, if Ubuntu REALLY wanted it, it could create everything that Mint adds; so Mint would not even exist as there would be no reason.

[pingufunkybeat]

I'd like UVD and OpenGL4 with top performance too, but you have a very strange definition of a "VESA superset".

AMD/ATi open source drivers are possibly the best and most featured FOSS drivers out there, period, at least up to r500. Intel drivers used to be good, but I hear they are slipping.

Can you name a better / more full-featured FOSS driver than r300g? r600g still needs time. It's not the perfect solution, but at least AMD did a lot to push it in the right direction, including documentation and lots of code.

[crazycheese]

AMD serving two masters? Jack of all trades master of none? Sounds about right.

BTW Mr Bridgman, if you got the feeling that I was being disrespectful to you (other members got that idea) I am sorry - not my intention.

It is normal reaction to pay money(or time), expect something for it and then get ripped-off feeling. AMD is not "ripp-off", but "lacking", yet supporting opensource approach.

Do not ever try to buy Kodak printer for linux for example. Their sales agent has insured me 5250 works under Linux. I bought two. Zero support, only some unreleated guy implement basic PPD file. Mail support responded with no support. Next day I returned them back, now Kodak has two opened printers and rage of the store itself for false information (the store worker was not ignorant, listened up and recommended HP).

I think companies should respect the will of consumers and follow, however the modern marketing policy is to make you believe they know you better than you. Why? Because they do not need to spend money on knowing your tastes and your direction of thinking. It is much more simple to have brainwashed zombie than a thinking individual. Sadly but true, modern marketing is not about market reseach, but about market (consumer) control. "Only works with", "premium", "exclusive", "most people use that", "certified" etc etc.