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  • #81
    Originally posted by Mr James View Post
    Because native Linux games are so numerous and amazing with cutting edge 3D and awesome stories.......
    And whose fault is that?

    BlackStar: I am currently in a country where NOBODY pays for Windows licenses and piracy is the norm. Yet I choose Linux because it is a superior OS. An OS for the intelligent.
    Great!

    And I am in my right mind - on nVidia those games run through wine exectly as they would on Windows.
    Weren't you saying that Linux is the superior OS? Because you seem to be implying that Windows is running games better than Linux does.

    In which case, maybe installing Windows would be the more intelligent choice after all?

    Wine is not an emulator - no performance reduction.
    Wine isn't an emulator because it performs worse. It's an emulator because it emulates Windows APIs. Performance is irrelevant.

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    • #82
      "You live in a dreamworld. "who does Kano , are you referring to Me ? if so 'back in the day' as in the MacOS HW was on 68000 and the Amiga was running on on 68020/68030 at a faster clock speed too.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
        You are confused.

        A full Linux system offers a comprehensive set of libraries and APIs, including the OpenGL API with a number of accelerated hardware drivers implementing it.

        If people instead write Windows games meant to run on Windows platform, this doesn't mean that a Linux implementation of Windows API is all of the sudden "3D in Linux". It just means that nobody is writing Linux games.

        WOW, Tomb Raider and Crysis don't run on Linux. They are not Linux programs. They are Windows programs. They are not "3d on Linux". That's the problem.

        Instead of AMD concentrating on Windows compatibility, I think that you should concentrate on Windows compatibility. By installing Windows
        No. Wine is fine, if someone does not like Windows for many reasons, including not wishing to INVEST money in the direction that will help development of MS monopoly.
        So, if that person does want to play Windows only game, and does not want to install or buy Windows - its fine.
        No one forces you to buy MSDOS, because you want to play MSDOS only game. You get DosBox and basta.

        Originally posted by Mr James View Post
        Because native Linux games are so numerous and amazing with cutting edge 3D and awesome stories.......

        BlackStar: I am currently in a country where NOBODY pays for Windows licenses and piracy is the norm. Yet I choose Linux because it is a superior OS. An OS for the intelligent. And I am in my right mind - on nVidia those games run through wine exectly as they would on Windows. Wine is not an emulator - no performance reduction.
        Wine is emulator. Judging on technical implementation it is not, it is a layer. But this layer allows winapi calls to posix which is emulation in broad term, as in "non-native". It does do performance penalty. Although, if linux version of function works 20 times faster than windows equivalent, and wine does it 2x slower - it runs 10 times faster via WINE than on windows. So wine does indeed slow software as any additional layer; its just local implementation not related to wine which sometimes accelerates the whole thing. And in case you wonder if wine can stay be faster than native(windows) api - it can't. MS will just steal the code.

        Wine is overgrown however. Instead of being a "Winapi layer for linux" it has transformed into "Linux layer for windows software". It is plain wrong if it stays the only option, because the real option is only native software. Software can be crossplatform, where you do not need any "layers". This is point.

        Regarding the piracy, ASTA is en-route in Europe.
        Mikhalkov, the public idiot, has already pushed a law charging percentage from empty storage devices(any) for reason paying "copyright holders" back. This means, in Russia, piracy is spread not not because its impossible to prevent it. It is spread out because yet nobody in Russia cares about - and as soon as RIAA or MIAA or simiar CRAP bribe some politican it will be illegal.

        Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
        I love the hipocricy. On one hand he pans open-source support for 6xxx cards, on the other hand he praises driver support for nvidia which doesn't even have OSS drivers for 4x0 and 5x0 - and not even a single open-source developer.

        Yeah, right.
        Opensource solution is not yet usable en-masse(developing concurrent 3D games on opensource driver, for example). Modern cards have no same-day support via opensource driver. Miscellaneous features are absent (such as video decode accel). Device gui control is absent. Whole patent mess is present(s3tc in opengl, sgi patents in ms hands). This needs at least 300 (as in "300 the film") developers, which must be payed. If I buy amd card I have no option to assist those devs. You buy the card and this does not support your intention - something must be done about it - that would be good start.

        I don't talk about catalyst driver here, one of the reason is it makes no sense switching cards for same proprietary drivers - no advantage.

        I think Panix is just forced to use Nvidia, thats it.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by Kano View Post
          You live in a dreamworld. opengl win games basically run with fullspeed, but d3d ones are MUCH slower, its just like a downgrade from a highend to a lowend card on games with hl2 engine or similar.
          But it's more intelligent to run them at half speed using Win API emulation, running on top of a Windows driver, and a proprietary GL stack (after online D3D -> GL conversion).

          And whose fault is that?
          AMD, obviously!

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
            No. Wine is fine, if someone does not like Windows for many reasons, including not wishing to INVEST money in the direction that will help development of MS monopoly.
            So, if that person does want to play Windows only game, and does not want to install or buy Windows - its fine.
            No one forces you to buy MSDOS, because you want to play MSDOS only game. You get DosBox and basta.
            I don't have anything against WINE, it's a solution for people stuck with legacy apps. Tax app, for example.

            But it is a hack, and will always be a hack.

            If your intention is to buy a 10000$ gfx card, 20 AAA titles, and then turn your machine into a gaming rig, then you really, really should use Windows, and dual boot into Linux for serious work.

            Spending all that money, and then running all that expensive software through an emulation layer on Linux, using essentially the Windows gfx stack and Windows API? That's just dumb.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
              And whose fault is that?
              What does that have to do with anything?


              Originally posted by BlackStar View Post
              Weren't you saying that Linux is the superior OS? Because you seem to be implying that Windows is running games better than Linux does.

              In which case, maybe installing Windows would be the more intelligent choice after all?
              Nope. I'm saying nVidia is running games on linux better than ATI does. The problem is not Linux but rather the damn AMD driver - the point of this thread.


              I am saying that as of today's date, real gaming in Linux is achieved through wine. Plain and simple. Is it the correct thing? No. Do I like this fact? No. Should it change? Yes. But this is reality my friend.

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                No.

                Wine is emulator. Judging on technical implementation it is not, it is a layer. But this layer allows winapi calls to posix which is emulation in broad term, as in "non-native". It does do performance penalty.

                Although, if linux version of function works 20 times faster than windows equivalent, and wine does it 2x slower - it runs 10 times faster via WINE than on windows.

                So wine does indeed slow software as any additional layer; its just local implementation not related to wine which sometimes accelerates the whole thing. And in case you wonder if wine can stay be faster than native(windows) api - it can't. MS will just steal the code.
                Err WINE have always stated "Wine is not an emulator", and in that sense they are Right, it's Not Hard to understand,
                they Wrap a given routine as found on one API and map it to another routine of anther API Nothing more, were it gets tricky OC is when one API Does Not have the same functionality and so Emulation is the order of the day For That missing Routine Nothing More, get it ?

                also. it's clear if you bother to look, that under the Hood the NT and related API are very much a clone of many of the generic Unix Posix, hence why Wine Dev's continue to progress, there's no rule to say they cant add New Posix like code and extend the Wine API to better fit the current NT and related API so wrapping it instead of emulating these missing parts etc....

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                  Wine is emulator. Judging on technical implementation it is not, it is a layer. But this layer allows winapi calls to posix which is emulation in broad term, as in "non-native".
                  The fact that it's not just an abstraction layer but also a non-native binary loader should be a hint that it's not "technically" anything but an emulator in the mode that most people USE it in.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by popper View Post
                    Err WINE have always stated "Wine is not an emulator"
                    It is and it isn't. The moment you involve a non-native binary loader to allow yourself to load the Windows binaries, you're emulating. Winelib isn't an emulator. WINE, as many use it, IS, in spite of the naming to the otherwise.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by popper View Post
                      also. it's clear if you bother to look, that under the Hood the NT and related API are very much a clone of many of the generic Unix Posix, hence why Wine Dev's continue to progress, there's no rule to say they cant add New Posix like code and extend the Wine API to better fit the current NT and related API so wrapping it instead of emulating these missing parts etc....
                      That POSIX layer is marginally adequate and requires something like Cygwin to properly do things. Most code that's written for Windows doesn't go to those edges because they're almost useless to all.

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