Google Opens Up VP8, Launches New Container Format

[n0nsense]

Subtitels WebM

as non native English speaker, i just wonder ...
What about subtitles support in this container ?
Has it survived ?
The best i can hope is some Unicode format to make it in

[Ex-Cyber]

as non native English speaker, i just wonder ...
What about subtitles support in this container ?
Has it survived ?
The best i can hope is some Unicode format to make it in

Not in this version of the spec. They want to defer to WHATWG on standardizing subtitle support, which will probably end up using an external file (which an HTML5 player could easily render on top of the video or anywhere else).

[drag]

I certainly appreciate the comments, even if they put quite a damper on the celebration. But this does not mean that VP8 is not relevant, just that it is not quite as good as the best that h.264 can do, and probably never will be (though the gap will likely close). VP8 is certainly "good enough" for online streaming video, which is exactly what the web needs now, and these are exciting news.

It just depends on how you want to read it.


The first thing to keep in mind is that VP8 is both a specific encoder implementation and a decoding specification. The Encoder implementation is the actual source code and binaries that you use to create video and the specification is what you need to be compatible with if you want to be able to view the video.

As a specification VP8 may be weaker to H.264 in a number of ways; however the VP8 encoder is already pretty decent and does exceed the quality of most of the H.264 encoder implementations out there.

Just like LAME is able to produce better MP3 files then FAAC and most AAC encoder even though AAC specification is easily superior to MP3 specification so can VP8 intentionally be VERY good and be competitive even with x264's H.264 implementation. This was not true for Theora... theora is very much weaker then H.264 so that even the best Theora implementations will have a difficult time competing against the worst H.264 ones.


Now....

The second thing to keep in mind is that now that VP8 is open source you should be able to see a dramatic increase in the quality of the source code.


The third thing to keep in mind is that VP8 encoder, unfortunately, is optimized heavily to look good in PSNR comparisons. PSNR and other artificial benchmarks are good for helping developers during codec development, but they are very lousy for comparing different codecs with one another.

The ONLY thing that matters is subjective video quality. PSNR looks good in graphs and everybody loves graphs, but these video codecs are designed and intended to be viewed by human beings and not other computers. Humans have a peculiar way of viewing moving images and if you end up optimizing for PSNR it'll make the image look blurry to humans.

If the VP8 encoder can be improved to make a better looking image then it'll be even more competitive and even closer to what x264 offers.

Even if VP8 encoder can only get within 90% of what x264 then what that actually means in the real world is that if you are downloading a x264-encoded video that is 700MB then to get the exact same level of quality in VP8 would require you to have a 770MB file. For Theora your looking at a 900-1200MB file easily.


For OSS and Linux this is MASSIVE. Notice how we already have some of the best codecs and software out there for streaming and encoding video. It just sucks because we can't take advantage of all of it because of all the patent issues.

If VP8 is able to remain patent-free then this is HUGE. It'll change the market easily.

[Artemis3]

Interesting move, i was expecting vp8, but not another container.
As soon as Youtube gets it implemented (and the browsers) it will be wonderful to say goodbye to the ever slow/unstable flash player.

Now we just need a flashblock like plugin before the stupid ad marketers switch their ads to this new format as well.

What will now Xiph respond with? Theora2 based on vp8? or stick to vp8 as is? Also it will be nice to have vorbis as audio, it is a very good format, better quality than mp3, usually better than aac.

[bugmenot2]

As soon as Youtube gets it implemented (and the browsers) it will be wonderful to say goodbye to the ever slow/unstable flash player.

It's already working for quite a few videos. Add &webm=1 to your search URL and only find working videos. Just test it in chromium (best performance right now)
Yes, I hope flash dies soon. HTML5 ftw. You can do many animations with javascript now.

Now we just need a flashblock like plugin before the stupid ad marketers switch their ads to this new format as well.

I don't think we will need something special. It's like graphics, only moving.

What will now Xiph respond with?

Why should Xiph "respond"?

Also it will be nice to have vorbis as audio, it is a very good format, better quality than mp3, usually better than aac.

It's a very very good choice, you are right.

[liam]

I'm not so sure about that.

Not to mention patented to hell and back.

That x264 dev mentioned (several times) the copious, comments-used-as-cvs. He mentioned that at least some of the code predates x264. A quick look at wikipedia says h264 wasn't finalized until 2003. It seems possible that VP8 may have prior art here.
One thing Google isn't is stupid. They must've been concerned with patents prior to purchase of the company, and my guess is they had some engineers look over the On2 work prior to purchase of the company.
At any rate, we'll soon find out more.

Best/Liam

[deanjo]

If VP8 is able to remain patent-free then this is HUGE. It'll change the market easily.

That won't happen for quite a long time I'm afraid if at all even with no patent issues at present. To improve it they would most likely have to start looking at techniques that are already patented and that closes that road down. They also have to contend with device manufacturers and not many will bring out a new product to support an inferior format to what they presently have now. For it to truly be adopted in large masses it still has to provide a superior solution in capabilities to the status quo. By that time it is very likely that the MPEG-LA group will have something out to eclipse h264 and once again the gap widens between the opensource alternatives. If VP8 debuted at the same time as h264 it might of had a fighting chance in mass adoption but the market is firmly entrenched in h264 already. We saw this with mp3 and ogg years back. MP3 was already widely adopted and ogg remains a obscure item that few devices support.

[GDJacobs]

That won't happen for quite a long time I'm afraid if at all even with no patent issues at present. To improve it they would most likely have to start looking at techniques that are already patented and that closes that road down. They also have to contend with device manufacturers and not many will bring out a new product to support an inferior format to what they presently have now. For it to truly be adopted in large masses it still has to provide a superior solution in capabilities to the status quo. By that time it is very likely that the MPEG-LA group will have something out to eclipse h264 and once again the gap widens between the opensource alternatives. If VP8 debuted at the same time as h264 it might of had a fighting chance in mass adoption but the market is firmly entrenched in h264 already. We saw this with mp3 and ogg years back. MP3 was already widely adopted and ogg remains a obscure item that few devices support.

OGG didn't have a Sugar Momma, which is a critical difference this time around. WebM already has industry acceptance.

[deanjo]

OGG didn't have a Sugar Momma, which is a critical difference this time around. WebM already has industry acceptance.

Not really, sugar mommas don't mean squat. There have been many many many cases where a sugar momma didn't help at all in industry adoption. One only has to look at the various format wars over the years to see that.

[deanjo]

Having a sugar momma certianly didn't help Google Video, Google Catalog Search, Dodgeball, Jaiku, Google Mash Up editor, Google Notebook. There is also a HUGE player that steers trends on the net and that is , like it or not, legal or not, the piracy crowd. Those groups don't cater to what is open and free but what gets the the widest audience and usually the best quality solution around for a task. Lets face it the first guy that tries to put out a scene release using VP8 will get nuked by his peers for offering a lower quality product with a higher payload that can play on limited devices.